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Prince Rishda?

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Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

I know that he is referred to in the book as Rishda Tarkaan. However, I was reading Roar! A Christian Family Guide To Narnia and in The Last Battle section, he is referred to as Prince Rishda. It threw me off a bit. So would a prince in Calormen also be a tarkaan?

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : October 11, 2021 7:44 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie

Well, "prince" can mean different things in different cultures. I'm inclined to believe that was a typo though. Maybe they were confused because of Prince Rilian in the Silver Chair.

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : October 11, 2021 9:44 pm
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

Could they have been confused with Prince Rabadash in HHB?

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : October 11, 2021 10:26 pm
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

That could be it. Wonder if Rabadash and Rishda were related. Hmmm  

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : October 11, 2021 11:50 pm
aileth
(@aileth)
Member Moderator
Wouldn't be surprised if it were a mere slip of the pen. It happens Giggle Smile  
Posted by: @jasminetarkheena

That could be it. Wonder if Rabadash and Rishda were related.

While they could be related (after all, nothing's impossible, and they were both Calormenes) I'd go with probably not.  It's easy to forget that they were separated by more than a thousand years, at the very least, and maybe more. I can't remember if Lewis ever gave a definite number of years for the whole Narnian timeline, but there was a large gap between Rilian of the Silver Chair and Tirian,

"Ha!" cried Tirian, "are you then that Eustace and that Jill who rescued King Rilian from his long enchantment?"

"Yes, that's us," said Jill. "So he's King Rilian now, is he? Oh of course he would be. I forgot——"

"Nay," said Tirian, "I am the seventh in descent from him. He has been dead over two hundred years."

Jill made a face. "Ugh!" she said. "That's the horrid part about coming back to Narnia." But Eustace went on.

 and a much larger gap between the Golden Age and Caspian (1300 years?)

He thought of his great-grandfather's great-grandfather, King Rilian....Then he went further back and thought about Rilian's father, Caspian the Seafarer, whose wicked uncle King Miraz had tried to murder him, and how Caspian fled away into the woods and lived among the Dwarfs.... And then he remembered (for he had always been good at history when he was a boy) how those same four children who had helped Caspian had been in Narnia over a thousand years before; and it was then that they had defeated the terrible White Witch and ended the Hundred Years of Winter, and after that they had reigned (all four of them together) at Cair Paravel, till they were no longer children but great Kings and lovely Queens, and their reign had been the golden age of Narnia.

Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away ... my days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle

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Posted : October 12, 2021 12:16 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

@aileth Maybe it was a slip of the pen. Giggle . Wonder what “prince” means in different cultures. Hmmm  .

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : October 12, 2021 7:36 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

It could possibly lead some to speculate that Rabadash and Rishda are the same person, which they are not, like speculations of the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle being the same person.

Here are the similarities-

1. They were both Calormenes and from the upper class society. Rabadash is the first born of the Tisroc, making him a prince. Suppose Rishda is a prince, maybe in distant relation with whoever was the Tisroc during the events of The Last Battle. It might depend on what the definition of "prince" is in some cultures.

2. They were both arrogant and cruel. Prince Rabadash thinks highly of himself and is willing to shed innocent blood in Archenland, "even down to the last child that was born yesterday". I don't think Rishda have gone that far (unless he had his Calormene soldiers kill innocent children even down to an infant at Cair Paravel). But he still was willing to shed innocent blood.

3. They both have the same motivation; they both wanted to have Narnia for their own or a higher power. They both even use manipulation to get what they want. Prince Rabadash talks his father into allowing him to march the Calormene soldiers to Anvard then to Narnia. Rishda worked closely Shift for a while, then with Ginger. He used manipulation to get the Narnians to join him and the Calormenes in order to make Narnia a Calormene province. He's not the White Witch or the Lady of the Green Kirtle; he doesn't have a magic wand or a magical chair. No, he uses brains and brute strength to get what he wants.

Here are the differences-

1. I don't think Rishda was as childish as Rabadash (unless you count Rishda's reaction when Tash shows up in the stable as childish). Rabadash acts like a child at times when things don't go his way. I never could recall if there was ever a time that Rishda acted like that.

2. They have lived at different time periods. I think over 400 years passed between The Silver Chair and The Last Battle. I'm not sure how much time passed between The Horse and His Boy and The Last Battle. While I still think a relation between Rabadash and Rishda is still a possibility, is still possible they are not.

3. Rabadash was young and a bit of a hot head. I'm not sure how old Rishda was, but I have the impression that he's in his 30's or 40's. Rishda is more manly than Rabadash (at least I think). Rabadash must have been in his late 20's or early 30's.

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : December 13, 2021 9:10 pm
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

I never understood the reason why the devotional book Roar: A Christian Family Guide To Narnia referrers to Rishda as Prince Rishda. Maybe "prince" could be another word for "Tarkaan" in that culture or they could have been confused with Prince Rabadash. It's true that they're both Calormenes, but there's no way they could be the same person.

Maybe Netflix could have some implications like, "Oh Rishda Tarkaan, he's in direct descent from the Tisroc Rabadash" or that they are somehow related.  I'm not sure how they would do that, though.

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : March 20, 2022 8:36 pm
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

I can only assume that they didn't realise the difference. (both start with R and are Calormenes?)

Focus on the Family used excellent British actors for a variety of accents in the Chronicles series.
Surely they could have asked someone in England whether Prince was a suitable title for Rishda? I think checking this was an oversight.  It would have been fine to use 'Lord',or 'Sir' or a senior military title. After all, they called Shift 'The Lord Shift'.
But I think this was just a mistake.

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : March 21, 2022 8:25 pm
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru
Posted by: @coracle

I can only assume that they didn't realise the difference. (both start with R and are Calormenes?)

There is that. I actually didn't think about that they both start with R. They also have "sh" in their names (like a majority of Calormenes do- Kidrash, Rishti, Arsheesh, ect). They do have some similarities, like they both wanted to conquer and enslave Narnia.

Focus on the Family used excellent British actors for a variety of accents in the Chronicles series.

I couldn't agree more. At least they didn't cast Russell Boulter or Stash Kirkebride as both characters. I am happy about that. It's no wonder I don't want Netflix to cast the same actor to play both characters. I would like Rishda to be his own villain.

Surely they could have asked someone in England whether Prince was a suitable title for Rishda?

Maybe. As we've kind of already discussed, the word "prince" can mean different things in different cultures. He could be somewhat related to the Tisroc.

I think checking this was an oversight.  It would have been fine to use 'Lord',or 'Sir' or a senior military title. After all, they called Shift 'The Lord Shift'.

I think in the Focus on the Family adaptation, Shift refers to Rishda as "Captain Rishda". It sounds more fitting, because he was the captain of the Calormene army, maybe more than "Prince" or "Sir" or "Lord".

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : March 21, 2022 8:56 pm
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

So the word "prince" could mean different things in different culture. I guess a Tarkaan could be a prince in some aspect. The Tisroc is known to have multiple children, and his oldest son would be known as "Prince". Then Aravis tells of her ancestry, which include some Tisrocs. So she is kind of a princess, in that aspect.

I never understood why the devotional book Roar: A Christian Family Guide To Narnia refers to Rishda as "Prince Rishda"-

Then Tirian, in a last sacrifice, pulls Prince Rishda into the stable, with him.

Now maybe they're suggesting that there's somehow kind of a relation between Rabadash and Rishda. I think it would make sense if it did. Then again, it could have just been a random slip of the pen.

And of course, they could have easily gone with "Sir" or "Lord" or even "Captain" (Shift refers to Rishda as "Captain Rishda" in the Focus on the Family Radio Theatre adaption). Rishda should not be a prince!

I know it's something I can ramble on and on, but it's something I had to get out of my system.

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : April 15, 2023 8:35 pm
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee
Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I never understood why the devotional book Roar: A Christian Family Guide To Narnia refers to Rishda as "Prince Rishda"-

I'm guessing it's simply a mistake in that particular book (Roar: A Christian Family Guide to Narnia). I do have a copy of it but I haven't read the whole of it; I've just pulled it out and I'm astonished to find that that "Prince Rishda" quote seems to be the one mention of Rishda in the entire chapter-by-chapter commentary on The Last Battle.

I could be wrong, as I don't have time this morning to sit down and read through the entire thing in detail — and perhaps Rishda comes up in some of the extended commentaries towards the end of the book — but really, that's quite baffling. Rishda, regardless of his correct title, is one of the central villains in this particular story, and there's a significant plot twist at the point where Poggin overhears Ginger and Rishda talking and it's revealed that Rishda doesn't actually believe in Tash or Aslan; he's just using their names, and claiming they are one and the same being, in order to strike fear into the hearts of the Narnians and gain control over them. I can't find any reference to that scene in this book at all.

There is a huge amount of food for thought in that whole scenario and everything that's connected with it — the use (and abuse) of religion to control people and further one's own greedy ambitions; the problems with claiming that different religions are really all just the same thing; the dangers of calling on powers one doesn't genuinely believe in... Those are key themes in the story, and Rishda is one of the major characters through whom those themes are portrayed. They're issues for adults to consider, of course, but younger readers too should be able to grasp them and think about them. Yet this particular Narnia commentary doesn't seem to discuss those topics or to say anything at all about Rishda, apart from that one brief reference that mistakenly calls him "Prince"!

I'm getting the impression that maybe it just isn't a very well-written commentary and it might be better not to take it as an authority on Narnian (or Calormene) matters... Confused Eyebrow  

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : April 16, 2023 2:12 am
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

NB I'm ignoring any suggestion of connection between the two bad Calormenes hundreds of years apart.

I'm just giving my attention to a book which uses the word 'Prince' unwisely and incorrectly. Do I simply assume it's written by someone who doesn't live in a country with a hierarchy of royalty and nobility?

I've noticed that while my American friends are interested in royalty generally, as a novelty, and the 'ordinary girl marries a prince' plot is still turning up in romcom movies, the terminology and concepts are quite alien.

[With the new monarch about to be officially made King of UK and several other territories, it's useful to remember that he, like the Pevensies in LWW, will be 'crowned', not /coronated/ as some have tried saying.]

You can google for great sites on nobility, titles (eg Duke, Earl), and royal ones (Prince, Queen etc). There is a distinction between being in a Royal Family, and just having a title.

The Calormenes we meet, apart from the Tisroc's own sons, are either nobility (Tarkaan) or ordinary people. Quite frankly, the Tarkaans are bad enough without having royal blood!

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : April 16, 2023 3:21 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

I think there is. While it is a good devotional book, the commentary is probably not the most reliable source. Bible commentaries are not reliable either. So in other words, it's best to read the book first before you read through any commentaries.

I think there is a question in the devotional book about, "For a time Shift has been using Puzzle like a puppet. But who is the puppet now and doesn't even know it?" So that could be a reference to the secret conversation that Poggin was listening to.

Maybe they thought "Tarkaan" was too exotic. Perhaps, since Rishda was in the process of making himself ruler of Narnia, which of course doesn't happened, since Tirian pulls himself and Rishda into the stable.

Posted by: @coracle

The Calormenes we meet, apart from the Tisroc's own sons, are either nobility (Tarkaan) or ordinary people. Quite frankly, the Tarkaans are bad enough without having royal blood!

Exactly! Maybe if they had gone with Captain Rishda, I would have accepted that, given that he was the captain of the Calormene army. If they thought Tarkaan was too exotic, they could have gone with "Sir" or "Lord".

If the Narnia villains were to have their own spin-off movies, Lord Rishda: A Narnia Story or Captain Rishda: A Calormene Narnia Story or even Rishda Tarkaan: A Calormene Narnia Story sound a lot better than Prince Rishda: A Calormene Narnia Story.

 

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : April 16, 2023 1:16 pm
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee
Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

Exactly! Maybe if they had gone with Captain Rishda, I would have accepted that, given that he was the captain of the Calormene army. If they thought Tarkaan was too exotic, they could have gone with "Sir" or "Lord".

If the Narnia villains were to have their own spin-off movies, Lord Rishda: A Narnia Story or Captain Rishda: A Calormene Narnia Story or even Rishda Tarkaan: A Calormene Narnia Story sound a lot better than Prince Rishda: A Calormene Narnia Story.

 

You know, in all honesty, I don't think there's any need to get worried about (let alone fixated on) one instance of a character being given an incorrect title ("Prince") in one commentary / devotional book on Narnia. As far as I can tell, this particular book (Roar: A Christian Family Guide to Narnia) isn't sold outside the US — it certainly isn't sold new in Britain and I had some difficulty finding a second hand copy — and, just from looking through it, I would guess it wouldn't have a very wide audience. It's not aimed at general readers, but at parents who want specifically to discuss the Christian themes in the Narnia books with their children and relate them back to aspects of the Bible. While it's well-meaning, I'm not convinced that is how C.S. Lewis himself would have wanted the Chronicles to be read, and I can't imagine that kind of approach to them being popular here in Britain (or indeed in Australia, where I grew up).

What I mean is — I really don't think there's any likelihood at all that this one mistake in one relatively obscure Narnia commentary will be picked up and repeated by Netflix or by any other possible future producers of Narnia adaptations. So I honestly wouldn't worry about it. Wink  

 

 

 

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : April 16, 2023 1:42 pm
Col Klink liked
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