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Chapter Six: After the Decision

Destined-To-Reign
(@destined-to-reign)
NarniaWeb Junkie

#1. The King comes to the conclusion that "It's I who should be pitied. It's I who am being asked to give up part of myself..." Of course we know the King is just being selfish, but there is an interesting idea here. Is it possible that those who give up the sacrificial victim suffer more than the victim? Who is making the bigger sacrifice: Orual, who is losing a dearly loved sister, or Psyche, who is being sacrificed?

#2. What do you think of the Fox's ideas for trying to save Psyche? He mentions things from bribing an opposing kingdom to create a distraction (?), to rebellion from Glome's own citizens, to having a party. Was the King right, and wise, to discard all these options?

#3. A soldier's job is to follow orders, and yet Bardia allows Orual to enter Psyche's prison chamber. Is this a positive or a negative action? Does it show Bardia to be an overly emotional soldier, or does it show him to be a human being? Was it perhaps a strategic folly to allow Orual to enter Psyche's chamber? Why or why not?

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Topic starter Posted : July 8, 2010 3:23 am
Kate
 Kate
(@kate)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. I don't know that we can know. We'll find out later. It really depends on the nature of the sacrifice. We don't know if she'll die or not or what the afterlife of this story is like.

2. I guess I'm confused by his suggestions since he originally says that it would be best for Psyche to be sacrificed the very next day, but then later tries to get the king to buy some time. It seems inconsistent, but I think maybe Fox is showing the King how he thinks a king ought to act to try to save his daughter.

3. Again, we can't totally know since we don't know what will happen. It does seem that the only way out is through the door and that Psyche will be safe even if Orual visits. Bardia proves not that he is foolish, but that he has a heart. He has weighed the pros and the cons and decided that it is worth risking some things to let Orual in to visit.

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Posted : July 8, 2010 8:03 am
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. I think the word "sacrifice" implies that the person making the sacrifice is giving up something dear to them. If the sacrifice isn't precious, then what good is it to sacrifice it? A sacrifice is like a gift in that the more costly the offering, the more it shows how much the giver loves the receiver. Unlike a gift, a sacrifice cannot be trivial. It is supposed to take something dear from the king, Orual and even the people when Psyche is sacrificed. Of course, on the other hand, Psyche is giving up her own life. So, I suppose the answer to this question is simply it depends on whether the person doing the sacrifice loves themselves more than what they are sacrificing. Does Orual love Psyche more than she loves herself? (I think so.) -Then Psyche's death is going to be more painful for Orual than for Psyche. Redival, on the other hand, although saddened by Psyche's fate, will not suffer more than Psyche.

2. If the king truly does care for his people as much or more than his own daughter, then yes, he made the right decision. If, on the other hand, his decision was made out of cowardice, (which I expect it was) then he made the wrong decision. The king was relieved that he wasn't supposed to give up his own life and thus was more than willing to offer Psyche instead. The "well-being of the country" is just an excuse the king is hiding behind to keep the people happy and himself in control.

3. Given the circumstances I think Bardia made the right decision. Bardia doesn't strike me as overly-emotional. If the door truly is the only way out, then there doesn't seem to be any strategic folly, unless the girls hatch some sort of a plan for implementation after Psyche is lead out of the castle. If Bardia wants to keep his life, he should knock on that door pretty soon after letting Orual in, -before something goes wrong.

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : July 8, 2010 1:57 pm
Lady_Liln
(@lady_liln)
NarniaWeb Nut

#1. The King comes to the conclusion that "It's I who should be pitied. It's I who am being asked to give up part of myself..." Of course we know the King is just being selfish, but there is an interesting idea here. Is it possible that those who give up the sacrificial victim suffer more than the victim? Who is making the bigger sacrifice: Orual, who is losing a dearly loved sister, or Psyche, who is being sacrificed?

Interesting idea. I'm not certain that Psyche is dying in this sacrifice, I'm not sure what the Afterlife is like in this tale, and I think something's still missing before I can say who suffers more (which is rather objective to begin with).

#2. What do you think of the Fox's ideas for trying to save Psyche? He mentions things from bribing an opposing kingdom to create a distraction (?), to rebellion from Glome's own citizens, to having a party. Was the King right, and wise, to discard all these options?

I think the Fox loves Psyche as his own, whereas the King only loves her as long as she's able to help his kingdom. Therefore, the Fox's suggestions are anything and everything he can think of which might buy him the time to save Psyche on his own, even if the King wouldn't save her. The King is safe and if he loses a girl (whom we know are not high in his estimation) he's okay with that, because his own life is not threatened at the moment. So, no, I don't think the King was right.

#3. A soldier's job is to follow orders, and yet Bardia allows Orual to enter Psyche's prison chamber. Is this a positive or a negative action? Does it show Bardia to be an overly emotional soldier, or does it show him to be a human being? Was it perhaps a strategic folly to allow Orual to enter Psyche's chamber? Why or why not?

Well, since I'm resisting the temptation to read ahead, and this is my first time through the book—I don't know. :p


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Posted : July 8, 2010 6:03 pm
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
NarniaWeb Junkie

#1. The King comes to the conclusion that "It's I who should be pitied. It's I who am being asked to give up part of myself..." Of course we know the King is just being selfish, but there is an interesting idea here. Is it possible that those who give up the sacrificial victim suffer more than the victim? Who is making the bigger sacrifice: Orual, who is losing a dearly loved sister, or Psyche, who is being sacrificed?

I think that is possible. That is part of the whole sacrifice idea--that they must give up what they love best for the sake of the people. I'm not sure its really possible to compare whose sacrifice is the greater, though. Orual's does seem to be as great as Psyche's.

#2. What do you think of the Fox's ideas for trying to save Psyche? He mentions things from bribing an opposing kingdom to create a distraction (?), to rebellion from Glome's own citizens, to having a party. Was the King right, and wise, to discard all these options?

The Fox was so desperate to save Psyche that he was ready to do anything to save her. From the King's point of view, he had to preserve his own power, and he wasn't willing to give that up to save his daughter. But I think he should have tried, at least a little, and been a little unselfish for once. Yet I can see why he refused, from what we've seen of him. And in a way, though I'm not sure the rather selfish King was thinking this way, all those things that the Fox suggested would seriously damage the kingdom and kill a lot of people, so maybe it was better that only one person should die, even if that person was his daughter.

#3. A soldier's job is to follow orders, and yet Bardia allows Orual to enter Psyche's prison chamber. Is this a positive or a negative action? Does it show Bardia to be an overly emotional soldier, or does it show him to be a human being? Was it perhaps a strategic folly to allow Orual to enter Psyche's chamber? Why or why not?

I would say positive. It shows him to be a good and compassionate man. He couldn't refuse Orual when she was pleading (or so desperate she was attacking). And if the door is the only way out, he was there to prevent an escape.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : July 9, 2010 3:30 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

#1. The King comes to the conclusion that "It's I who should be pitied. It's I who am being asked to give up part of myself..." Of course we know the King is just being selfish, but there is an interesting idea here. Is it possible that those who give up the sacrificial victim suffer more than the victim? Who is making the bigger sacrifice: Orual, who is losing a dearly loved sister, or Psyche, who is being sacrificed?

Well, the people who give up the victim to be sacrificed will suffer longer than the victim. They will have to live with the grief while the victim is will die and then it will be over. The key is that the King says “part of myself” the person giving the sacrifice is losing only a part of his/her life while the victim is giving up all of his / her life. So, Orual is going to suffer more and Psyche is losing the most (can it be considered a sacrifice if it against one’s will?)

#2. What do you think of the Fox's ideas for trying to save Psyche? He mentions things from bribing an opposing kingdom to create a distraction (?), to rebellion from Glome's own citizens, to having a party. Was the King right, and wise, to discard all these options?

I don’t think it was right of the King to let her go without of some kind of protest. He doesn’t know if the lots were cast legally or not. Some of his ideas were probably a little wild (arming the slaves) but delaying the sacrifice and having the other king come and rescue her doesn’t sound bad.

I'll answer 3 another time.

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NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : July 11, 2010 3:34 pm
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

1: In some circumstances, this is definitely the case, this one perhaps being one of them. Of course, I think the King's claim is absolute bosh! He's losing nothing more than a daughter that he never wanted. If Psyche's sacrifice will rid him of the troubles that Ungit has rained down upon his kingdom, I don't think he has a problem with sacrificing her. Orual on the other hand does seem to suffer a good deal more than does Psyche. She's even willing to sacrifice her own life to save that of her sister. We'll have to wait and see how these things turn out ;)

2: I think that the King was wise to discredit these things. Fox is entirely practical in his thought process, he thinks nothing about the gods, and the potential retribution that would arise from such actions. If one is reading this book with the assumption that the gods are real, then Fox's suggestions are absurd. They would merely boil down to the biblical story of Jonah.

3: I agree with what everybody has said about Bardia so far. I think his actions show a loyalty to his own conscience before a loyalty to his King. I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad thing. . . but in this case it certainly is admirable. I don't think that he realises what the implications of his actions could be (or perhaps he does, and decides that he's willing to risk them for Orual).

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Posted : July 12, 2010 11:22 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

#3. A soldier's job is to follow orders, and yet Bardia allows Orual to enter Psyche's prison chamber. Is this a positive or a negative action? Does it show Bardia to be an overly emotional soldier, or does it show him to be a human being? Was it perhaps a strategic folly to allow Orual to enter Psyche's chamber? Why or why not?

Another tough one. :p I don’t think he is an overly emotional soldier. He didn’t let her in right away. I think it shows that he is human. There are times when a soldier should not obey orders (I’m not saying this is necessary one of them). Well, Bardia himself said “That‘s how all escapes begin. I think it is possible that Psyche and Orual might come up with some kind of a plan. But, I think it is cruel to prevent them from seeing each other. Orual didn’t get to say good-bye or anything. Prisoners are usually allowed to have visitors (or at least I think that is the practice)

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NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : July 12, 2010 1:50 pm
Bookwyrm
(@bookwyrm)
NarniaWeb Guru

1. Well, we don't really know what is going to happen to Psyche. If there is no deity, then she's going to die in the wilderness. If there is one, then maybe she might survive. I think both sacrifices are pretty equal. Orual is giving up the only thing in her life that she truly loves and cares for, essentially her reason for existence. Psyche could very well die.

2. As much as I despise the King, I don't think he truly had much of a choice in the matter. Though he could have tried a little harder to save Psyche, I don't believe there was anything he could really do, short of ordering the army to slaughter most of Glome's population.

3. Bardia considered the situation and judged that showing compassion to two people he seemed to genuinely admire and respect was worth the risk of doing something he wasn't supposed to do. While he is disobeying orders, following them and keeping Orual from seeing her sister would have been a far worse thing to do.

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Posted : July 15, 2010 6:46 pm
DOECOG
(@doecog)
NarniaWeb Nut

#1. The King comes to the conclusion that "It's I who should be pitied. It's I who am being asked to give up part of myself..." Of course we know the King is just being selfish, but there is an interesting idea here. Is it possible that those who give up the sacrificial victim suffer more than the victim? Who is making the bigger sacrifice: Orual, who is losing a dearly loved sister, or Psyche, who is being sacrificed?

I think Orual is suffering more. I’m not saying that Psyche is not making a great sacrifice, but she seems better able to handle it. Psyche is the most important thing to Orual and without her Orual thinks nothing else matters.

#2. What do you think of the Fox's ideas for trying to save Psyche? He mentions things from bribing an opposing kingdom to create a distraction (?), to rebellion from Glome's own citizens, to having a party. Was the King right, and wise, to discard all these options?

The King is not concerned with what’s wise or right. He doesn’t want to do anything to save Psyche because he fears the people would turn on him if they did. He thinks of his children as property. To him, their value comes from how they benefit him.

#3. A soldier's job is to follow orders, and yet Bardia allows Orual to enter Psyche's prison chamber. Is this a positive or a negative action? Does it show Bardia to be an overly emotional soldier, or does it show him to be a human being? Was it perhaps a strategic folly to allow Orual to enter Psyche's chamber? Why or why not?

I think Bardia is one of the most honourable characters in this story. He’s torn between his duty as a soldier and his loyalty to the princesses. I believe he let Orual see Psyche because he knew they couldn’t escape. He is trying to spare them as much pain as possible, while still following orders.

DOECOG
Daughter Of Eve
Child Of God
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are... 1 John 3:1
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Posted : July 15, 2010 7:16 pm
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