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Chapter 4: The Accusation

DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

Here are three questions that we'd like you to answer about chapter four. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

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Topic starter Posted : July 8, 2010 10:59 am
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
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1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

I suppose that the King thinks that offering sacrifices is enough to be considered "god-fearing." The King's motivation for sacrificing to Ungit seems to be much the same as other kings in myth: the country's well-being. I don't think that the King has any personal love for Ungit, and certainly not for the Priest of Ungit. I might even disagree with the idea that the King "serves" Ungit. I think he leaves the actual "serving" to the Priest.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

I think it is a bit unfair to accuse Psyche of apotheosis when it is clearly the people who thought she was a goddess and asked for her blessing. The people are to blame, not Psyche. I think Psyche grew up in that sort of an environment and was used to it. But whether or not she intended to pretend to be a goddess, she did usurp some honor that was due the gods and thus apotheosis is very nearly a valid accusation. The plague could very well be coincedental, but given that this is a myth where gods and goddesses exist, I think it far more likely that Ungit is sending it.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question. Could you clarify a bit Digs?

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : July 8, 2010 12:18 pm
Destined-To-Reign
(@destined-to-reign)
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As # 3 was one of my questions, M. Aristotle, I'll try to clarify a bit more. :)
In my mind, Orual has been around the King so much that she's been scarred for life by his temper and violence. You'd assume that the last thing she'd have to worry about is turning out like him, because surely she's determined to be the exact opposite. And yet when Psyche says that Orual looks like their father when she's angry, Orual gets scared-that's the last thing she wants to do, turn out like him.
The passage just stuck out at me when I read the chapter, so I wanted to see some more thoughts on it. Is Orual scared because she's seen signs of her father's temper in herself? Is she worried that it's hereditary? Or are there other reasons?

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Posted : July 8, 2010 1:41 pm
Lady_Liln
(@lady_liln)
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1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

He feels very much like a "fair weather" follower to me. If he thinks it wins the peoples' trust to sacrifice to Ungit, he will. Also, the possibility that Ungit might make a difference means he's willing to give it a shot. If it helps, he's up and even if the sacrifices and such don't help, he's still seeming to follow the god of the people and his own faith isn't shaken, as he doesn't appear to really believe in Ungit.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

I would say that Psyche seems fairly naive about the whole thing. As to the plague coming from Ungit or not, I don't really know; I'm flip-flopping both ways.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

I think some of the harshest things Orual's heard have come from her father's lips. Though I don't really know that she hates him, I feel that she dislikes him and does not want to be like him. So, being told she seems like him is an insult to her. What has hurt her and that which she wishes to not be is what the person she loves most tells her she looks like.

*reads the rest of the page*

The passage just stuck out at me when I read the chapter, so I wanted to see some more thoughts on it. Is Orual scared because she's seen signs of her father's temper in herself? Is she worried that it's hereditary? Or are there other reasons?

With not knowing how her character arc ends, I don't really know (the phrasing in the paragraph about the comment's sting still makes me wonder). I lean with what I was saying above, which is what you seemed to be getting at. She's seen so much destruction and hate in the King's temper that she has most likely—formally or not—formed a vow to herself to never wind up like that. Therefore, Psyche's comment hurts because the pain of the King's behavior is something Orual doesn't wish to inflict on another being. I may be totally off the mark though. I'm interested in what others have to say about this question too.


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Posted : July 8, 2010 5:11 pm
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
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1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

I think that says that his motive for serving Ungit was to bring good things to the country and himself. When he gives what he thinks is proper to give, the gods are supposed to give blessings to the country. But he's doing what are supposed to be the 'right things', and the gods aren't giving any blessings, and he doesn't understand. The 'god-fearing' man would seem to be the man who follows all the right customs and makes all the right sacrifices, doing whatever the gods require of him.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

Not really. Psyche seemed kind of innocent to me--she did what the people asked her to do, and they hailed her as a goddess because of her beauty and goodness. So I don't think that she was especially trying to steal worship from the gods. I think it was possible that the plague came from Ungit, but it could have been a coincidence too.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

Because her father has been the one who said the most hurtful things to her, and she has seen his anger, she is afraid that she could hurt someone as he does. Her father, though I don't think she exactly hates him, is not a person she wishes to imitate.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : July 9, 2010 2:31 am
pogginfan
(@pogginfan)
NarniaWeb Nut

1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

To me, it seems like it goes along with the King's selfish personality. I don't think he actually believes in the gods. He's just afraid that they could be real, so he sacrifices bunches of animals and hopes that will makes things right. His motivation is apparently so that bad things will not befall the country. Whatever is supposed to help, he'll do.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

I don't think this is a valid accusation. The people are the ones who supposed Psyche to be a goddess, she never proclaimed it herself. I also do not think that Psyche is to blame. She was simply trying to help the people, and if touching them healed them, than she was happy to do it. She seems very innocent and naive about the whole thing.
I'm not really sure about that last question. It seems like it would be a strange coincidence, though.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

Well, Orual's already been called ugly numerous times. Strangely enough, Physche telling her this seems to bother her more than people calling her ugly. Perhaps being called ugly, and Psyche telling her she looks like her father is too much too handle.
Also, I think having Psyche tell her this is what really hurts her. Orual loved Psyche more than anyone else, and the thought that she reminds Psyche of the King's anger is probably a major blow to her. After all, Orual's received many hurts from the King's anger. She would probably never want to hurt Psyche like that and have Psyche think of her as Orual thinks of the King.

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Posted : July 10, 2010 10:24 am
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

The people are the ones who supposed Psyche to be a goddess, she never proclaimed it herself. I also do not think that Psyche is to blame. She was simply trying to help the people, and if touching them healed them, than she was happy to do it. She seems very innocent and naive about the whole thing.

So are you saying (by extension perhaps) that Ungit could be bringing down judgment on the populace of Glome for their actions? I think that's a very interesting, and exceptionally valid claim. Like you said, Psyche wasn't the one who started this. . . the people did.

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Topic starter Posted : July 11, 2010 9:17 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

I’m answering the questions without having read most of the other answers, so sorry if I’m repeating things.
1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?
I’m really not sure what this tells us about the king. I think he defines “god-fearing” as making the required sacrifices. I think he serves her for his own profit and probably to look good in front of his people.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?
I really don’t think she brought it on herself. If she had asked to be worshiped it would be another thing. She never claimed to be a goddess. It was the people who called her one. I’m pretty sure it has been said in the book that the royal family has divine blood, so I would imagine it would be possible for that manifest itself in healing hands / beauty. I suppose she could be a little responsible since she didn’t deny the claims that she was a goddess. I’m not sure whether the plague comes from Ungit or not. I’ve been reading the story with the mindset that Ungit isn’t real but I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about? Is Orual scared because she's seen signs of her father's temper in herself? Is she worried that it's hereditary? Or are there other reasons?
I think this is sort of like the moment in VDT when Caspian is throwing his fit and Lewis mentioned that he looked like his uncle. When Orual said those things (about wanting revenge on the people) it reminded me of the king. I think it scares her that she saw similarities between herself and the King. She disagrees with a lot of what the King does and then finds that she does some of them too. I think it is common for children to dislike certain things about their parents and say they will never do them and then find out that they do. Ex. I’ll never do that to my children … I think it scared her and horrified her. I hope that answer makes sense.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : July 11, 2010 2:42 pm
pogginfan
(@pogginfan)
NarniaWeb Nut

So are you saying (by extension perhaps) that Ungit could be bringing down judgment on the populace of Glome for their actions?

Yes, I'm leaning towards that. :)

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Posted : July 12, 2010 5:44 am
Bookwyrm
(@bookwyrm)
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1. I think he's being completely disingenuous when he claims to be a devout follower of Ungit. The King's attitude toward Ungit is an entirely selfish one. He treats her like a vending machine; put a certain amount of sacrifices in and you get a son, power, and riches out.

2. Considering that so far we've seen no reason to believe that Ungit it real, for the moment I think that the misfortunes are coincidental. And even if the plagues are the result of Ungit's jealousy, it's not Psyche's fault. It was the people who hailed her as a deity. It's not like she made them do so. If the goddess is real, it would make sense that the misfortunes have all affected the people rather than the royals. Sure Psyche got the disease, but that was a direct result of her mingling with the ill.

3. I think Orual realized that she might have something of her father's personality lurking within her and it frightened and hurt her. Considering her childhood, the King is probably the last person in the world she'd want to be like.

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Posted : July 13, 2010 12:59 pm
DOECOG
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1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

The King considers himself god-fearing because makes sacrifices and “respects” their priest, but all he does for them are empty gestures. He doesn’t try to please the gods because he loves them. He tries to please them so they’ll respond by rewarding him.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

It is ironic that all most everyone seems to blame Psyche for stealing the worship of the gods, but no one seems to look at their own behaviour. The people who blame Psyche for making the gods jealous are the same ones who were giving Psyche their worship. I think they just need someone to blame and Psyche is the scapegoat.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

Orual has good reasons to not like her father. I think she doesn’t want to resemble him in any way, whether that’s looks or personality

DOECOG
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How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are... 1 John 3:1
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Posted : July 15, 2010 11:40 am
waggawerewolf27
(@waggawerewolf27)
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What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

I think, from my reading of this book, he is scared of annoying Ungit, but more afraid of annoying the priests of Ungit unduly. If he didn't do the serving and sacrificing the priests of Ungit could have him on toast, due to their influence among the people. And thanks to the misfortunes the King complains about, they may serve him up on toast anyway. And literally, he is afraid of a god - that Ungit might really exist, a far from benevolent being.

And meanwhile, I also agree with what Bookwyrm says. That the King does seem to think that if he did all the sacrifices and played along with the priests and Ungit, that he should have got his son, riches etc. Something like a divine vending machine.

I gather that her resemblance to her father, the King, is what makes Orual so lacking in looks, so no wonder she'd get upset. Orual and Psyche have a bad-tempered father, who doesn't mind hitting out at Orual so some of her so-called 'ugliness' is due to his maltreatment. And yes, Psyche has noticed the physical similarity between angry Orual and angry and unloveable King. Maybe Orual is afraid of turning to be just like him in behaviour as well.

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Posted : July 21, 2010 2:34 pm
The Pendragon
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1: The King responds to all of Glome's misfortunes by saying, "What have I done that all these miseries should fall upon me? I've been a god-fearing man all my life." What does this tell us about the King? About how he defines "god-fearing"? What is the King's motivation for serving and sacrificing to Ungit?

He thinks that he’s been a really good man in the eyes of the gods, & followed them. He defines “god-fearing” as a man who is like the gods. The kings motivation for serving & sacrificing is to get rid of the drought & starvation in the land.

2: In this chapter we learn about the misfortunes that have befallen Glome. Its crops are failing, its water source is drying up, lions are attacking the herds, people are starving, and the plague is still running rampant. Many in the court (and many peasants as well) seem to hold Psyche responsible due to her apotheosis (that is her pretending to be a goddess). Do you think that this is a valid accusation? Is Psyche to blame, and has she brought this upon herself? Does this plague come from Ungit, or is it merely coincidental?

This is not a valid accusation against Psyche. It’s not her fault that the country isn’t doing well, nor her fault to be mistaken for a god. Psyche is not to blame, & she hasn’t put this upon herself. The people are the ones who thought that she was a god. The drought could be a coincidence, but it’s more likely (seeing how this is a Greek myth) that the gods in the story are real, & that it’s Ungit that has brought the plague.

3: "Don't be angry. You look just like our father when you say those things." This is what Psyche says after Orual's been scolding her. Why does this scare Orual so much, when you'd think that having been in close proximity to the King, it'd be the least thing she'd have to worry about?

This scares Orual because she doesn’t want to be anything like her father, who is a cruel, selfish man. Even when she’s angry, she doesn’t want to be like her father. You’d think that being around such a terrible person, she would be exactly opposite of him because of her hate for his behavior, but she sees that this is the first sign of becoming like the thing she hates.

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Posted : July 27, 2010 6:13 am
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