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Chapter 14: The Persuasion

Destined-To-Reign
(@destined-to-reign)
NarniaWeb Junkie

#1. With whom do your sympathies lie throughout this argument/debate? Is Orual tempting Psyche to sin against the god's wishes? Or is Psyche provoking a non-believer to wrath? Are both of them to blame? Are neither of them to blame?

#2. Of Psyche's belief that the Fox believed in the gods, Orual says, "It was an error helping her toward the main truth." Is this true? Does error ever lead to truth?

#3. Is there anything admirable in Orual's reckless determination to make Psyche do what she (Orual) wants her to? If Orual sinned in pressing and and threatening Psyche, was it less of a sin because she was convinced (89% of the way) that she was right to do so?

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Topic starter Posted : July 29, 2010 3:30 pm
Kate
 Kate
(@kate)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. Orual's motivations for everything are very convoluted and rather fascinating. I definitely don't totally understand it. First there's her obsessive lust for Psyche's attention that she wants to be the sole receiver of. Then there's the small part of her that truly loves Psyche for Psyche. Then there is her desperation to persuade herself of anything but the truth of who the god is (which I believe she already knows but refuses to acknowledge it). I think that her forceful and desperate forcing of Psyche into her plan is a manefestation of all these motivations and that Orual is being deeply blind and selfish.
3. I kind of already covered this one, but I believe that Orual really knew the truth, but didn't want to accept it because it made light of her love/worry for Psyche and also went against all her teachings that she relied on. She really gives Psyche no choice. Orual is the madwoman--eager to be a murderer for the sake of being right.

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Posted : July 29, 2010 5:47 pm
daughter of the King
(@dot)
Princess Dot Moderator

1. If anyone is to blame it is Orual. She refuses to believe in the gods because she was taught not to. But she knows they exist. She knows that Psyche is telling the truth. But for her own selfish reasons she refuses to believe. She doesn't want Psyche to love anyone but herself.

2. I don't think it was true. She wanted to believe it was true because she wanted to be right and was ready to be right by any means necessary. Even if the Fox believed that the god could be real I don't think it would have brought Psyche to believe that the god wasn't real.

3. I don't really see anything admirable in Orual's actions. Again, she wants to be right and to have Psyche all to herself. If it was a sin, I don't think that because Orual was mostly sure she was right lessens it any. Is there such a thing as lessening a sin?

ahsokasig
Narniaweb sister to Pattertwig's Pal

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Posted : July 30, 2010 5:01 am
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. I tend to sympathize with Psyche more. She believes, and she is happy, and her sister is trying to convince her that it is all a sham. Even if her motives were good, her sister is basically tempting her and using her love to manipulate her into doing what she wants. It is the selfish love again.
2. No, I don't think so. She's believing that because it will help her convince Psyche, since the Fox is an authority they both trust. I don't think that error, in itself, can lead to truth.
3. I don't think there was anything admirable in Orual's actions. She's being possessive--Psyche is hers and no one else's. What she did in the chapter definitely qualified as sin, but I don't think being sure you're right takes away from that fact.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : July 31, 2010 2:08 am
Lady_Liln
(@lady_liln)
NarniaWeb Nut

#1. With whom do your sympathies lie throughout this argument/debate? Is Orual tempting Psyche to sin against the god's wishes? Or is Psyche provoking a non-believer to wrath? Are both of them to blame? Are neither of them to blame?

I took it more along the lines of Orual tempting Psyche. Psyche is not innocent, she knew that her choice was wrong, but Orual's forceful cornering led Psyche to believe that this was her only choice.

#2. Of Psyche's belief that the Fox believed in the gods, Orual says, "It was an error helping her toward the main truth." Is this true? Does error ever lead to truth?

Error cannot generally lead to truth; I'm sure someone can come up with a specific case in which it might, but it is not the norm.

#3. Is there anything admirable in Orual's reckless determination to make Psyche do what she (Orual) wants her to? If Orual sinned in pressing and and threatening Psyche, was it less of a sin because she was convinced (89% of the way) that she was right to do so?

No; Orual's whole purpose in life, in her opinion, is tied up in Psyche. The fact that Orual was semi-convinced doesn't mean anything, as I felt that she deep down knew the gods and castle were real, but she was too terrified that this would mean she'd have to give up "her" Psyche. Therefore, she would rather fool herself into a lie and get Psyche back, no matter the cost to Psyche.


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Posted : August 1, 2010 4:00 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

#1. With whom do your sympathies lie throughout this argument/debate? Is Orual tempting Psyche to sin against the god's wishes? Or is Psyche provoking a non-believer to wrath? Are both of them to blame? Are neither of them to blame?

I think Orual was in the wrong. I didn’t get the impression that Psyche was deliberately making Orual angry. I think Orual is being extremely selfish. I was disappointed that Psyche agreed to do what Orual asked. I think she could have suggested a compromise such as asking her husband first about the reason for the rule.

#2. Of Psyche's belief that the Fox believed in the gods, Orual says, "It was an error helping her toward the main truth." Is this true? Does error ever lead to truth?

I think it really depends on the situation. One can come to the correct conclusion but use faulty reasoning or get the correct answer in a math problem but get it the wrong way. Correcting errors would definitely lead to the truth.

#3. Is there anything admirable in Orual's reckless determination to make Psyche do what she (Orual) wants her to? If Orual sinned in pressing and and threatening Psyche, was it less of a sin because she was convinced (89% of the way) that she was right to do so?

No, I don’t find anything admirable in Orual’s methods. Psyche says it very well (especially the bolded parts):

You are indeed teaching me about kinds of love I did not know. It is like looking into a deep pit. I am not sure whether I like your kind better than hatred. Oh Orual – to take my love for you, because you know it goes down to my very roots and cannot be diminished by any other newer love and then to make of it a tool, a weapon, a thing of policy and mastery, an instrument of torture – I begin to think I never knew you. Whatever comes after, something that was between us dies here.

No, I don’t think it was less of a sin because she thought she was right to do so. I learned in my business law class, that intent is important in a crime but then on the other hand ignorance is not a defense. If I didn’t know that it was illegal to steal and stole something, it wouldn’t matter a bit in the eyes of the law whether I intended to break the law or not. I could shout that I didn’t know about the law all I want but they would listen because ignorance is not a defense. Of course, the punishment might be less for some who unintentionally breaks the law but the crime would tried the same (or at least they would be initially arrested for the same crime). This is assuming that the do the same act just one doesn’t know it is wrong / things they are right and one knows exactly what one is doing. In other words, I’m not talking about something like killing someone in self defense vs. someone killing someone to get their money.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : August 2, 2010 2:23 pm
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. My sympathies lie with Psyche. Orual has gone too far this time. She needs to realize that potentially defying the gods is a serious matter, -one that deserves more counsel and thought than she has put into it.

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : September 18, 2010 6:59 pm
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