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Chapter 10: What Happened at the Sacrifice

DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

Sorry we're a day late!

1. After Psyche tells Orual to cross the stream, she tells Bardia that he shouldn't. He's relieved, and asks Orual if she really wants to cross, that it's a "dreadful" place. Orual insists that she will cross-"even if the river flowed with fire." Bardia says, "Of course. It's not with you as with us. You have gods' blood in you."
Why does Bardia say this? Are the people of the Royal House generally considered to be descended from gods by the people of the land? Is he speaking of Orual specifically? And why?

2. Psyche says, "Don't you think the things people are most ashamed of are the things they can't help?" This causes Orual to think of her ugliness. Do you agree with Psyche? Why would Orual be ashamed of her ugliness?

3. When Orual sees Psyche alive, she says "I could forgive the gods themselves. I'll shortly be able to forgive Redival; perhaps." What is this forgiveness based on? Is it biblical forgiveness? Why or why not?

4. Several times in this chapter Psyche references what she calls "mortal shame." What does she mean? What do you think of the idea of "mortal shame" when in the presence of the divine?

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Topic starter Posted : July 23, 2010 8:01 am
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. Yes, the people do seem to think that the royal family of Glome is descended from the gods. I think Bardia means that it is because Orual is descended from the gods that she can walk into the gods' country, so to speak. I don't think he's referring to her specifically, though he seems to be talking about her courage.
2. I think that's at least partly true. People are ashamed of being ugly, of not being able to do a certain thing, of being small--and there's really nothing they can do about it. But there are some things people can help, but are ashamed of anyway.
Orual would be ashamed of her ugliness because of how the people around her value beauty. She sees her ugliness in contrast to the beauty of others, and how her father insults her because of it, so she is ashamed to be ugly.
3. This forgiveness seems to be based on the fact that she's rejoicing. Psyche is alive, and she is so happy over that that she is ready to forgive anyone, because she is so happy there's no room for anything else. I don't think this is Biblical, though, because Jesus tells us to forgive without saying anything about our feelings.
4. I think she means a sort of awe--like the people in the Bible who saw angels--the overwhelming awe and fear of mortals in the presence of great immortal powers (good ones). I think it is a very true concept. In the presence of something so great and powerful, people feel insignificant, and are ashamed of it. After all, we are very small and weak in comparison to such beings.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : July 23, 2010 10:18 am
daughter of the King
(@dot)
Princess Dot Moderator

1. I think the people of Glome in general believe that the royal house is descended from the gods. I don't think he's speaking of Orual specifically. He just knows that he can't cross the stream because he is a commoner while Orual is of royal blood and therefore more worthy or perhaps more sacred than he is.

2. I think in general this is true. The things we can't help are the things we can't change. Orual thinks of her ugliness because all her life she has been reminded that she is ugly and she has been hidden behind veils or pushed away because of it.

3. I think Orual's forgiveness is based on her happiness. She turned against the gods because they had taken Psyche away from her. In the moment she thinks she has Psyche back she is happy again. And (going back to the first chapter) if you are happy, why would you not forgive the gods?
This is not a biblical forgiveness. Biblical forgiveness is not based on happiness.

4. By mortal shame, I think Psyche is simply saying that as a mortal she could never hope to compare to the gods. They are so far above her that she is ashamed to associate with them.

In the presence of something so great and powerful, people feel insignificant, and are ashamed of it. After all, we are very small and weak in comparison to such beings.

I like the way you put this.

ahsokasig
Narniaweb sister to Pattertwig's Pal

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Posted : July 24, 2010 5:19 am
Lady_Liln
(@lady_liln)
NarniaWeb Nut

1. After Psyche tells Orual to cross the stream, she tells Bardia that he shouldn't. He's relieved, and asks Orual if she really wants to cross, that it's a "dreadful" place. Orual insists that she will cross-"even if the river flowed with fire." Bardia says, "Of course. It's not with you as with us. You have gods' blood in you."
Why does Bardia say this? Are the people of the Royal House generally considered to be descended from gods by the people of the land? Is he speaking of Orual specifically? And why?

There's been multiple mentions of the Royal Family having gods's blood in them. I just wrote it off as a myth about the Glome-ian royalty. Perhaps I shouldn't have?

2. Psyche says, "Don't you think the things people are most ashamed of are the things they can't help?" This causes Orual to think of her ugliness. Do you agree with Psyche? Why would Orual be ashamed of her ugliness?

Oftentimes, yes, I think so. Orual's been told her whole life that she is too ugly and that that's something horrible about herself, so she's ashamed of it, as she believes it to define and ruin her.

3. When Orual sees Psyche alive, she says "I could forgive the gods themselves. I'll shortly be able to forgive Redival; perhaps." What is this forgiveness based on? Is it biblical forgiveness? Why or why not?

It's based on her sheer joy of seeing Psyche again, so she'll forgive those who've offended her. No, it's not Biblical forgiveness.

4. Several times in this chapter Psyche references what she calls "mortal shame." What does she mean? What do you think of the idea of "mortal shame" when in the presence of the divine?

I got the impression that she was referring to fact that the gods live forever. She lives, what 80 years? Her life seems minuscule and inadequate.


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Posted : July 26, 2010 5:34 pm
Bookwyrm
(@bookwyrm)
NarniaWeb Guru

1. It was fairly common for royals to claim to be descended from deities or to be deities themselves. There have been several mentions so far of the Glomian royalty being divine descendants, so I guess this is a fairly common believe amongst the people of Glome.

2. In Glome, like a lot of ancient societies(and even our own to some degree), women are judged by their ability to be married off and produce children. The royal women serve no other purpose than this. The fact that Orual is so ugly as to be completely unattractive to men has been reinforced again and again. If one has been brought up to believe that their only purpose in life is marriage, having a trait that eliminates almost any chance of marriage would probably be something one would be ashamed of.

3. This is not a good form of forgiveness. Orual hasn't truly forgiven the gods or Redival in her heart, her resentment has only been set aside for the moment in the face of overwhelming joy.

4. Confronted with the reality of gods and their power, a human body would seem very weak and frail. A bit like a cardboard cutout of a sports star standing next to the real thing. I think Psyche is ashamed of this frailty.

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Posted : July 26, 2010 8:40 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. After Psyche tells Orual to cross the stream, she tells Bardia that he shouldn't. He's relieved, and asks Orual if she really wants to cross, that it's a "dreadful" place. Orual insists that she will cross-"even if the river flowed with fire." Bardia says, "Of course. It's not with you as with us. You have gods' blood in you."
Why does Bardia say this? Are the people of the Royal House generally considered to be descended from gods by the people of the land? Is he speaking of Orual specifically? And why?

Bardia feels he is unworthy to be with the gods. (although I think he would be worthier of it than the King). It is similar to how the Israelites acted when God appeared on the Mountain. They insisted that Moses go but they wouldn’t. They were very afraid. Moses was chosen to go so he could go. Having god’s blood in them could be similar to being chosen. I’m pretty sure the idea that the royal family has god’s blood in them has been mentioned before. It is common in stories for the ruling family to claim decent from the gods.
I think he is talking about the royal people in general and not just Orual.

2. Psyche says, "Don't you think the things people are most ashamed of are the things they can't help?" This causes Orual to think of her ugliness. Do you agree with Psyche? Why would Orual be ashamed of her ugliness?

I think Orual is at least a little ashamed by her ugliness. She senses that people consider her worth less than her sisters because she isn’t pretty.

3. When Orual sees Psyche alive, she says "I could forgive the gods themselves. I'll shortly be able to forgive Redival; perhaps." What is this forgiveness based on? Is it biblical forgiveness? Why or why not?

Her forgiveness is based on the situation improving. The way I understand it biblical forgiveness is forgiving whether or not things work out alright and whether or not the person asks to be forgiven / is regretful.

4. Several times in this chapter Psyche references what she calls "mortal shame." What does she mean? What do you think of the idea of "mortal shame" when in the presence of the divine?

I think it is similar to when Jill and Eustace see Aslan at the end of their quest. Jill remembers everything they did wrong and all of their quarrels. It seems to me to be a very natural way to feel in the presence of the divine when one is not divine oneself. On a smaller scale, it happens when “regular” people find themselves in the presence of famous people / royalty.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : July 27, 2010 10:46 am
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

3. The reason that Orual feels she can forgive everyone is because her problem (Psyche's death) has turned out not to have happened. If no wrong is done, then there is no need to be grudging or unforgiving. When we analyze it, this really has little to do with forgiveness. Orual was angry at the gods because she thought Psyche was dead. Her misconception was corrected, thus no need to be angry anymore. I get the idea that Orual would not have forgiven anyone if Psyche had actually turned out to be dead.

In contrast, we as Christians are called to forgive since we have been forgiven. It has nothing to do with the person who has wronged us. It has to do with the One who has righted us. God has been an example to us in the area of forgiveness, and we follow His lead.

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : September 5, 2010 7:44 pm
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