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Chapter Eight: Orual's Response to the Sacrifice

DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

When they prepared Psyche to be taken out to the mountain, they prepared her like a temple girl, with paint and a wig and strange clothing. If, as Orual says, this kind of guise is so ugly, what would be the motivation or reason for decking her out like this?

Orual's raving visions all show Psyche to have turned against her. What do you make of these visions? Are they accurate to what Psyche has done to Orual?

Near the end of the chapter, the Fox's "love got the better of his philosophy" and he is unable to comfort himself. He believes this is because he "began to philosophize too late," but that Orual will make better progress. Do you think the Fox is right to try to conquer both his circumstances and his reactions to those circumstances with reason and philosophy? Will Orual really "go further" in philosophy than the Fox?

What does Orual mean when she says weakness and work are two blessings that the gods have given men?

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Topic starter Posted : July 15, 2010 10:44 am
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
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When they prepared Psyche to be taken out to the mountain, they prepared her like a temple girl, with paint and a wig and strange clothing. If, as Orual says, this kind of guise is so ugly, what would be the motivation or reason for decking her out like this?

I'm not sure. If that dress is supposed to be 'holy' through its association with the temple, it would probably be considered appropriate to one who will be offered to the god. Also, holy things in Glome don't always seem to be beautiful.

Orual's raving visions all show Psyche to have turned against her. What do you make of these visions? Are they accurate to what Psyche has done to Orual?

I think the visions are a reflection of Orual's feelings toward the way Psyche seemed to be 'abandoning' her. It seems that Orual is angry because Psyche said she longed for death, which means she would be separated from her sister--it was like she wanted to leave her, or so Orual thinks. No, I don't think they are really accurate. Nothing that Psyche did showed that she in any way hated Orual or wanted her to suffer like she did in those dreams.

Near the end of the chapter, the Fox's "love got the better of his philosophy" and he is unable to comfort himself. He believes this is because he "began to philosophize too late," but that Orual will make better progress. Do you think the Fox is right to try to conquer both his circumstances and his reactions to those circumstances with reason and philosophy? Will Orual really "go further" in philosophy than the Fox?

Not really. I think its something we all try to do. We try to say how such a thing is reasonable, as if that will somehow make it better. But reason can't really comfort you, any more than it could comfort the Fox. You can know why your pain happened, but it still hurts. Possibly. She could make herself think reasonably, and try not to think otherwise. Reason will not involve your heart with anyone to be broken, the way it was with Psyche.

What does Orual mean when she says weakness and work are two blessings that the gods have given men?

The comfort of weakness seems to be that you can't do anything much, so therefore nothing can really go wrong, and its a sort of rest from when you are strong and expected to do things and solve problems. The comfort of work would be a distraction--you can't worry about the other things in your life when your whole mind is absorbed in some task.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : July 15, 2010 11:34 am
daughter of the King
(@dot)
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If, as Orual says, this kind of guise is so ugly, what would be the motivation or reason for decking her out like this?

Probably because the way she was decked out was associated with Ungit and holiness. It is ugly, but the temple, the temple girls, and the priest are all ugly too.

What do you make of these visions? Are they accurate to what Psyche has done to Orual?

I don't think they're accurate. Orual thinks Psyche did not love her and wanted to abandon her. She thinks Psyche turned against her, but I don't think Psyche did.

Do you think the Fox is right to try to conquer both his circumstances and his reactions to those circumstances with reason and philosophy? Will Orual really "go further" in philosophy than the Fox?

Reason and philosophy are the only things the Fox knows. He's always tried to deal with his circumstances by reasoning and philosophizing. I'm not sure about Orual. I don't see how she could go further than the Fox.

What does Orual mean when she says weakness and work are two blessings that the gods have given men?

Well, if you're weak, you don't have the energy to do anything, not even to think. And so while she was weak she was able to put aside her problems. Work is a blessing because a person can get caught up in it and shut everything else out. But in a way neither work nor weakness are really a blessing because they allow a person to shove aside what is bothering them instead of dealing with it. Work and weakness may help for awhile, but the problem will still be there when the work is done and strength is regained.

ahsokasig
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Posted : July 16, 2010 12:43 pm
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

1:

If that dress is supposed to be 'holy' through its association with the temple, it would probably be considered appropriate to one who will be offered to the god.

I think this is pretty spot on. Personally, I don't think that the Priest knows tuppence about what Ungit "favours." It took him how long to figure out what she supposedly wanted to purge Glome of the evil?

2: I thought that these visions were very interesting, because I think that they show a better insight into Orual's mind than what is given to us via her narration. It all goes back to that whole psychology theory that the "subconcious heart is more honest than the conscious tongue."

And now, finding me heart shattered for Psyche's sake, they made it the common burden of all my fantasies that Psyche was my greatest enemy. All my sense of intolerable wrong was directed against her. It was she who hated me; it was on her that I wanted to be revenged. Sometimes she and Redival and I were all children together, and then Psyche and Redival would drive me away and put me out of the game and stand with their arms linked laughing at me. Sometimes I was beautiful and had a lover who looked (absurdly) a little like poor, eunuch'd Tarin or a little like Bardia (I suppose because his was the last man's face, almost, that I had seen before I fell ill). But on the very threshold of the bridal chamber, or from the very bedside, Psyche, wigged and masked and no bigger than my forearm, would lead him away with one finger. And when they got to the door they would turn around and mock and point at me. But these were the clearest visions. More often it was all confused and dim - Psyche throwing me down high precipices, Psyche (now very like the King, but still Psyche) kicking me and dragging me by the hair, Psyche with a torch or a sword or a whip purusing me over vast swamps and dark mountains - I running to save my life. But always wrong, hatred, mockery, and my determination to be avenged.

All of these visions (at least the vivid ones) come back to what might be called one of the book's central themes: beauty. Redival and Psyche - the two beautiful daughters - are the ones who are excluding Orual from joining in their game. They mock her, for what one could easily assume was her ugliness. Psyche (a weird mini-dwarfish version ;)) ) comes into Orual's wedding chamber and woo's away her new husband with only a single finger. I think it interesting that Orual sees Psyche as a miniature in this vision; to me it implies that even a fraction of her beauty is enough to steal away her husband. This too is followed by more mocking, again over beauty (or ugliness depending on the way one sees it).

The rest show Psyche actually trying to take physical action against Orual. These visions have always bothered me. Why are these visions the least clear to Orual? Why does she feel the need to run from a sister that she's always loved wholeheartedly? Why does she feel the need to revenge herself against Psyche if the gods are the ones who have supposedly caused all of this in the first place?

3: Fox trying to lean on his philosophy in a difficult time is like a man trying to dig his way out of a hole. Fox's philosophy, as Psyche has cleverly pointed out in chapter seven, is flawed. He's going about things the wrong way, and unless Orual sees the truth ( ;) ) then she's not going to end up any better than Fox is.

4: Weakness and Work are co-related. Man works, which causes him to become physically weak, and yet because he has worked, he has been able to provide himself with the means to make himself strong again, so that he can work again, completing a cycle. I think it's more or less saying that it is a system that even the gods cannot break, because the subsistence-style farming isn't far from their form of punishment.

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Topic starter Posted : July 17, 2010 4:20 pm
Bookwyrm
(@bookwyrm)
NarniaWeb Guru

1. Like others have pointed out, the things that are holy in Glome seem to be lacking in beauty. The outfit that they dress Psyche in is meant to be holy and ritualistic; beauty is not a priority.

2. Orual's hallucinations are tied to her feelings during her last visit with Psyche. Because Psyche wasn't weeping and wailing and having a fit over being sacrificed, Orual began to think that Psyche wasn't sad to leave her.

3. I think what the Fox is saying is that his emotions override his reason-based approach to life. He had taught Orual reason from an early age, so he believed she would find it easier to control herself and ignore her emotions. The statements Orual makes in her narration of events show that she has failed to do so and has allowed her bitterness and anger to control her life.

4. I think Orual means that these are two things that focus our minds, not leaving room for hopes and dreams and joys, things she believes that the gods use against humanity.

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Posted : July 18, 2010 7:38 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
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When they prepared Psyche to be taken out to the mountain, they prepared her like a temple girl, with paint and a wig and strange clothing. If, as Orual says, this kind of guise is so ugly, what would be the motivation or reason for decking her out like this?

I think Orual is a little biased in the matter, so I’m not sure if it is as ugly as she says. However, from her description I’m inclined to believe it is. I suppose they think that that is in some way a holy look. I think stuff like that is common in certain cultures. It also could be done to cover up her beauty because that is what got her into the situation in the first place.

Orual's raving visions all show Psyche to have turned against her. What do you make of these visions? Are they accurate to what Psyche has done to Orual?

I think they show how Orual is feeling. She feels like Psyche has gone somewhere she cannot follow and did it willing without any regard as to how Orual felt. I don’t think it is an accurate picture because Psyche meant no malice in what she did. She didn’t do it intentionally to hurt Orual and in the visions the intent to hurt is there.

Near the end of the chapter, the Fox's "love got the better of his philosophy" and he is unable to comfort himself. He believes this is because he "began to philosophize too late," but that Orual will make better progress. Do you think the Fox is right to try to conquer both his circumstances and his reactions to those circumstances with reason and philosophy? Will Orual really "go further" in philosophy than the Fox?

No, I don’t think the Fox is right to try to conquer his reactions with reason and philosophy because it won’t work. I think there is always the risk for “love [to get] the better of […] philosophy” or any other emotion for that matter. She may have more time to try but she isn’t off to a very good start. I don’t think she will because of the way she is writing the book. The Fox seems to think that the gods do not exist or are not meddling or interfering. Orual clearly blames the gods for everything bad that has happened to her. That doesn’t seem to fit with the Fox’s ideas that “They [chances?] and it [Pysche’s murder?] are all part of the same web, which is called Nature, or the Whole.”

What does Orual mean when she says weakness and work are two blessings that the gods have given men?

When one is weak one doesn’t have the energy to think and/or doesn’t care so any miseries are easier to bear. When one is working, the work distracts one from what is wrong in one’s live which gives a little peace. (If work is the misery, I’m not sure how that works. If it does at all.)


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Posted : July 19, 2010 1:57 pm
DOECOG
(@doecog)
NarniaWeb Nut

1. I don’t know about this one. I guess it’s a way for people to humble themselves before the gods.
2. I think Orual’s dreams represent her worst fears. It is horrible enough to lose her sister, but if Psyche turns against Orual then it like their whole relationship was a lie and she never really cared for her. At least that's how I think Orual would see it.
3. I think the fox is talking about reason verses emotion. When one is extremely emotional it is often hard to think clearly. I think the fox wishes he could see past his emotions and see everything objectively.
4. Those two activities allow her to escape the intensity of her pain. They allow her to focus on something besides Psyche.

DOECOG
Daughter Of Eve
Child Of God
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are... 1 John 3:1
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Posted : July 21, 2010 8:25 pm
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