1. I was taught as a child that bowing your head and kneeling was a sign of reverence and submission to God's authority. Closing your eyes and folding your hands is simply to avoid getting distracted.

2. This, I think, refers to people who want the comforts of Divine contact without the consequences. They want comfort and guidance, but they don't want judgement or correction. Many mega-churches and self-help books are like this.

3. I liked how Screwtape said "Teach them to estimate the follow of each prayer by their success in producing the desired feeling [charity, courage, forgiveness etc]; and never let them suspect how success or failure of that kind depends on whether they are ill, fresh or tired, at the moment." This struck a chord with me, because sometimes after a prayer, I'll have a very 'spiritual' feeling and I'll think how successful that prayer was. Maybe not. What did my prayer actually contain? Was it along the lines Jesus laid down with the Lord's Prayer or was it just some drivel that happened to make me feel good?

1. You can find the complete stanza by Samuel Taylor Coleridge that Screwtape references here (scroll down or search for IV). The lines are used to illustrate the suggestion that our posture or lack of it is vitally important to our prayer life. Why might that be? Are the fragments of the poem enough to draw a clear picture of the desired state of mind?
I have a hard time with this section. Personally, I don't see that posture is all that important to our prayer life. Since I tend to say or rather think my prayers when I'm lying down right before I fall asleep, I'm probably a bit biased. I do fall asleep in the middle of them sometimes, so in that respect I can see how that particular posture might not be the best idea. I do think that the parts about "composing his spirit to love" and indulging a "sense of supplication" is not desirable. Of course God knows what we need and want, but I think he likes to be asked.

2. Screwtape writes “You will be helped by the fact that the humans themselves do not desire it [real nakedness of the soul in prayer] as much as they suppose. There is such a thing as getting more than they bargained for!” What do you think about this?
There is probably some truth in that. First, people tend to not want to admit their faults even to God. Second, I read an article about prayer. I'm not sure if it came out and said this or if it was just my interpretation but a point I remember is why do people want to hear God audibly speak to them - look at what happened to people in the Bible he did speak to. (Jonah was not happy with his task, Moses didn't want lead the Israelites). Like Reepicheep775 said, "They want comfort and guidance, but they don't want judgement or correction." I would add that they only want to be told what to do if it is something that isn't unpleasant or hard.

1. You can find the complete stanza by Samuel Taylor Coleridge that Screwtape references here (scroll down or search for IV). The lines are used to illustrate the suggestion that our posture or lack of it is vitally important to our prayer life. Why might that be? Are the fragments of the poem enough to draw a clear picture of the desired state of mind? I find myself with Twigs, I find one of the best times for me to pray without being distracted by anything outside is when I'm laying down and ready to go to sleep. Often Sometimes I do go to sleep. So it is an uncomfortable thought that one might 'have' to be in a certain position to pray. But! Everything I remember reading in the Bible suggests that it's the attitude instead of where we are that's important.

As for the poem, I think it is describing what is, from Screwtape's perspective, a very desirable mental state, and it does paint a clear picture.

2. Screwtape writes “You will be helped by the fact that the humans themselves do not desire it [real nakedness of the soul in prayer] as much as they suppose. There is such a thing as getting more than they bargained for!” What do you think about this? To quote the owls in SC, "Too true, too true! Too-wo, what a to-do!"

I find myself with Twigs, I find one of the best times for me to pray without being distracted by anything outside is when I'm laying down and ready to go to sleep. Often Sometimes I do go to sleep. So it is an uncomfortable thought that one might 'have' to be in a certain position to pray. But! Everything I remember reading in the Bible suggests that it's the attitude instead of where we are that's important.

Oh good I'm not the only one. We've been learning at church that God wants us to rest and created the world to need rest. While I'm not sure that technically applies to falling asleep in the middle of prayer, it seemed to sort of relate. I know I've heard that praying doesn't just have to happen in a certain position. I've heard several people suggest praying while driving or at stoplights.

I've even been to prayer meetings where we all knelt in front of our chairs, folding our hands and closing our eyes, and I would kneel there, listening to the others' long prayers and feel more and more drowsy ...

Sometimes prayers should be hard work, and then that supplication attitude isn't enough. That might be better suited for the morning's prayers than the evening's anyway. Short prayers during the day when there's a need for prayer is great, too.

1. On posture in prayer: I understand the general concept that some positions (like kneeling) can symbolize reverence and our submission to God - and that others may help keep us from getting distracted (I was reminded here of the 'oh, it's lunchtime' distraction back in letter 1).

But Screwtape might be overrating it here. I've got bad knees - and kneeling just causes pain that distracts me from prayer.

Not only that, but some of the most memorable times of prayer or worship have come when I'm actually surrounded by distractions: a night sky full of stars, trees blazing with autumn colors, snowy mountains in the sun. One of my favorite 'prayer postures' is taking a walk in the park (perhaps this is because I'm getting away from the distractions of modern life, like computers or TV?).

Yet now, perhaps those memorable experiences should be evaluated in light of what Reepicheep775 quoted and said above:

3. I liked how Screwtape said "Teach them to estimate the follow of each prayer by their success in producing the desired feeling [charity, courage, forgiveness etc]; and never let them suspect how success or failure of that kind depends on whether they are ill, fresh or tired, at the moment." This struck a chord with me, because sometimes after a prayer, I'll have a very 'spiritual' feeling and I'll think how successful that prayer was. Maybe not.

This is an excellent point. Perhaps part of it is a matter of perspective. There have been times of prayer that may have seemed dry at the time (often associated with those 'troughs' Screwtape writes about) - but in hindsight, perhaps months or even years later, I've realized that those trying moments were in fact watershed times when God showed grace and caused growth through trials.

1. Well, if I try to pray at night while lying down, I often fall asleep before I finish! I'm not entirely sure how much the posture actually affects things, but I do know that my posture should be conducive to paying attention and not being distracted.

2. A real knowledge of sin and of God's holiness can be quite overwhelming. We often want to continue on with how we are, and the knowledge that we are to be holy as God is holy is hard, for it means we must change, which is almost always uncomfortable.

3. Ditto what Reepicheep775 said---what Lewis wrote about trying to feel our prayers was particularly interesting. I try to compose myself in a proper mood to pray, but then wonder if it's real or just feeling. Is there a way to know if you're feeling that way because God has given you peace (or something) or just because you want to feel that way?

I have a hard time with this section. Personally, I don't see that posture is all that important to our prayer life. Since I tend to say or rather think my prayers when I'm lying down right before I fall asleep, I'm probably a bit biased. I do fall asleep in the middle of them sometimes, so in that respect I can see how that particular posture might not be the best idea.

Exactly! I've tried praying as I get ready for bed, and then sitting up in bed and finishing before I lie down, but I'm not sure if I should be multi-tasking...

Actually, it sounds like a number of us have the same issues with that passage.

1.

I do fall asleep in the middle of them sometimes, so in that respect I can see how that particular posture might not be the best idea.

Sometimes I do go to sleep. So it is an uncomfortable thought that one might 'have' to be in a certain position to pray.

I've even been to prayer meetings where we all knelt in front of our chairs, folding our hands and closing our eyes, and I would kneel there, listening to the others' long prayers and feel more and more drowsy ...

Well, if I try to pray at night while lying down, I often fall asleep before I finish!

Again, I am alarmed at what I'm reading in the thread, but this time I'm actually serious.

I'm ready to admit that, even though I've barely realized it until now, one of the biggest hindrances to my prayer life has been falling asleep during prayers. From my reading in this thread, it seems to be a common problem, which is very alarming. Who benefits from a tired and unfocused prayer? Who benefits when a prayer that is cut off prematurely? How can we ever expect to walk in God's full grace if our prayer lives are so hindered?

Not to mention (now that I think about it) it seems a bit rude. Imagine that you always waited to talk to your best friend until right before you went to bed, and then, you fell asleep just a couple of minutes into the conversation. Now imagine the same scenario, only with your father, brother, or spouse. How will we ever have the spiritual intimacy with God that we desire if we are half-asleep whenever we talk to Him?

Perhaps Screwtape is right. Perhaps we don't desire it as much as we suppose we do?

I know I've heard that praying doesn't just have to happen in a certain position. I've heard several people suggest praying while driving or at stoplights.

Pray without ceasing.

Prayer should be an open line to God all the time, so in that sense, yes, anytime, anywhere, in any position is acceptable. But what I think Lewis is talking about here is what we designate as our "prayer time," when we get serious and drive away the distractions so that we can bring some things before God that we might forget at other times. In this case it seems, from what I've read here, that Lewis might have something. Perhaps it is better to kneel when praying or to stand in God's presence, if for no other reason than if we don't, we might fall asleep in the middle of the prayer! (Of course if one is unable to kneel, I'm sure God's ability to hear is not impeded by our sitting.)

Perhaps praying out the most important things in the morning is a wise idea.

...I tend to say or rather think my prayers...

I used to "think" prayers as well, since God knows our every thought, but I wonder if praying out loud isn't more powerful. If we are taking Jesus as our example in prayer, it seems we ought to be speaking aloud. See John 17:1.

They want comfort and guidance, but they don't want judgement or correction. Many mega-churches and self-help books are like this.

I think this is more of a human failing than one specifically of mega-churches. One might find this attitude just as easily in the small congregation down the street.

Now that I think about it, you could even find that desire trying to creep into the person behind this computer screen.

For more info, see Valiant Archer's reply to #2.

Movie Aristotle, I know I don't desire or rejoice in prayer as much as I should. There are times when it is a joy, but also times when it feels more like a chore that just has to be done. I know that's something I need to grow in. I know it's not good to fall asleep while praying, so I've been trying lately to do my praying while standing or sitting up in bed. So far, that's seemed to help me keep my mind on my prayers and off of sleep.

Just to clarify, I'm endevouring to change my prayer habits so that I can have a more effective prayer time. I think we all desire to grow in this area!

I know it's not good to fall asleep while praying, so I've been trying lately to do my praying while standing or sitting up in bed. So far, that's seemed to help me keep my mind on my prayers and off of sleep.

I once heard of a man who said his prayers standing over the bathtub so he wouldn't fall asleep. I wonder how many times he got wet?

Not to mention (now that I think about it) it seems a bit rude. Imagine that you always waited to talk to your best friend until right before you went to bed, and then, you fell asleep just a couple of minutes into the conversation. Now imagine the same scenario, only with your father, brother, or spouse.

The thought of its being rude has been bothering me off and on for a while. I suppose it is rather rude. I could easily see a friend or relative getting irritated if one fell asleep during a conversation.

Prayer should be an open line to God all the time, so in that sense, yes, anytime, anywhere, in any position is acceptable. But what I think Lewis is talking about here is what we designate as our "prayer time," when we get serious and drive away the distractions so that we can bring some things before God that we might forget at other times.

You are probably right. Unfortunately, I tend to find it easier to pray coherently when I'm driving than when I'm trying to force everything else out of my mind and focus on praying.

Here's a question (for anyone who would like to answer). Is there a difference between falling asleep during one's regular or designated pray time and falling asleep while praying because one can't sleep? (ex. If one is lying awake and decides to pray (not necessarily about not being able to sleep) and then falls asleep) I'm not sure I explained that well.

Movie Aristotle, I know I don't desire or rejoice in prayer as much as I should. There are times when it is a joy, but also times when it feels more like a chore that just has to be done. I know that's something I need to grow in. I know it's not good to fall asleep while praying, so I've been trying lately to do my praying while standing or sitting up in bed. So far, that's seemed to help me keep my mind on my prayers and off of sleep.

I feel the same way, Valia. Sometimes praying seems like a chore. I've been doing my prayers sitting up in bed and before I read instead of after. It's going better. I've been staying awake. I still need to work on the focusing part. It seems to help if I whisper my prayers.

I once heard of a man who said his prayers standing over the bathtub so he wouldn't fall asleep. I wonder how many times he got wet?

He would sure wake up in a hurry if he landed in the water.

Perhaps we don't desire [prayer] as much as we suppose we do?

I would even go so far as to say that personally I don't desire prayer as much as I know I should.

Is there a difference between falling asleep during one's regular or designated pray time and falling asleep while praying because one can't sleep? (ex. If one is lying awake and decides to pray (not necessarily about not being able to sleep) and then falls asleep)

I was thinking along the same lines, but couldn't come up with a way of phrasing it that didn't sound like an excuse, even to myself. So, for what it's worth, maybe it's like when you're having a late night chat with your sisters or whoever (when the lights are out and you're supposed to be asleep ) and eventually someone goes to sleep. You're not offended, you just pick up where you left off if it was important later.

for what it's worth, maybe it's like when you're having a late night chat with your sisters or whoever (when the lights are out and you're supposed to be asleep ) and eventually someone goes to sleep. You're not offended, you just pick up where you left off if it was important later.

Isn't that a good attitude to prayer, though? You talk to God, then you do other things in between, and then you pick up where you left off.

It's different from prayer as assigned work, and it's perhaps not something that should replace the work attitude - but it might be a good supplement. Doesn't Paul say 'Pray at all times'? Perhaps this is what he means by that.

2. Screwtape writes “You will be helped by the fact that the humans themselves do not desire it [real nakedness of the soul in prayer] as much as they suppose. There is such a thing as getting more than they bargained for!” What do you think about this?

Well, we all have an evil nature or we all have flesh and so the demons are trying to use it to their advantage. It is the truth that until make our flesh die or die to ourselves the flesh is always going to try to do it's own thing and not be exposed by prayer.