An increasingly become cliche is in a massive battle scene, the good guys are on the verge of defeat, then at the very last second, another army or the main hero arrives to save the day. Seen frequently in Narnia, Lord of the Rings, etc.

HOWEVER, you can still take advantange of what is becoming cliche and do a twist on it. When you really boil it down, there is nothing new under the sun. Everything you do or try to do has been seen before in some way. So give it a face that hasn't been seen before. Mentors are often critical for a character's development, but depict the mentor in a way most people won't expect. The mentor does not have to be old. In the movie Big with Tom Hanks, the 'mentor' is the best friend of the Tom Hanks' character: a 13-year old kid. The mentor doesn't have to die a heroic death (Star Wars, Eragon, Lord of the Rings, etc). Be creative with the cliches. If you can get your reader to expect a cliched thing to occur and you suprise them, good job.

I don't have a "wise old mentor with beard and pointy hat" character, but I do have an "evil dude in black cloak". Hrrmm. Maybe I should make him wear purple or something.

More cliches:
--The story begins with ACTION...and then the character wakes up to find out it was all a dream.
--Stories that begin with characters waking up in general.
--The elf, dwarf, and man combination.

I can't think of any more that haven't been covered already.

How does everyone feel about originality? I'm concerned that my general plot seems similar to another book. I didn't do it on purpose, it just happened. But then again, there are so many aspects that make my story very different. Does having a similar plot make a book cliche? Are there ways I could avoid this? I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.

7chronicles, what I like to do when I try to avoid an overused idea is take my favorite aspects from various movies, books, cds, tv shows, whats happening on the news, anything and change it into my idea. Like I would take aspects of what I liked from that particular story or character and change it into something that fits my stories. I mean occasionally as you proof read the story you will see similarities but not so much that its like ahhh you stole from so and so book!

And with cliches you can always use them just change it into something that fits your story. Haha like the "evil dude in a black cloak" could easily turn into "questionable evil mermaid in a sliver dress". Every now and then if a cliche comes into your story, just tweak it a bit and make it your cliche.

What I really don't like in stories is the mentor turned lover cliche...give me a break he/she is your mentor not your lover. In one of my stories, I gave the biggest twist ever to that cliche, that my editor (aka my best friend ) was like "I never saw that coming!"

So does anyone have tips about writing fight scenes? Like one on one fights with a sword or whatever comes into the way? I've tried different sites that gives you tip but everytime I write a scene it doesn't sound right. I

Wow thank you all so much for your input!
So far I have none of the Clichés that have been mentioned, which is good!
This really helps me out a lot!

@LadyGaladriel: Glad to know someone else understands were I’m coming from. Thanks for your impute, and I hope you can figure out a good way to finish off your villain, if I can think of anything I’ll be sure to PM you.

@FencerforJesus: That’s a great idea to put a twist on a cliché I don’t think I would have ever thought of doing that. Thanks!

@sillygoose: Thanks! I‘ll have to try out your Idea!
I’m also having a hard time describing fight scenes with a sword, I always picture them better then I write them, so your not alone.

Again Thank You all!

When it comes to writing a sword fighting scene, reading a book about how sword fights are done can help. But talking to a swordsman is better and I have been a fencer for over 12 years. Those who've read my work have said I have the best battle scenes they have read because they know I actually know how the fights are done by experience. Doing research does help, but not like actually doing it. It is late, so I won't post any tips tonight, but let me know how you want help and I will give you some very useful tips. If you want me to look over some samples, PM me as we do not allow actual samples on the forum for the sake of the server. I'll also be glad to post some of my fight scenes via PM as well so you can get a few ideas.

Oh WOW that would help me out so so so much!!!!
Thank you so much FencerforJesus!
As soon as I get going on my story I’ll PM you for advice! Thanks!!!!!!!

Here are some helpers for battle scenes. First off, you need to know what kind of weapons you are dealing with. I'm not going to get technical over terminology, as that should be mostly reserved for the ones that do extensive research or simply know their stuff. But you need to know weapon types so you know what kind of actions are realistic.

Some weapons are for two-handed use and for one-handed use. Two handed weapons include great swords (like Scottish claymores, ie Braveheart), staffs, heavy axes, large hammers (think Ajax, the huge guy in Troy), and curved swords, like scimitars or katantas. These large weapons often have long range, have great power, but are often unwieldy. A Scottish claymore is capable of beheading three skulls in one blow, but if it misses, the wielder is wide open. Staffs, like the Chinese Bo staff, are designed for continual motion via spinning, twisting, and momentum. Sometimes used for thrusting, but they are not weapons you would suddenly stop in one direction, then go another. It would be faster to just spin the staff around your wrist and bring it around to a full 360. Large axes and hammer are flat out brutal bludgeoning weapon. If they hit, they kill. If they miss, watch out. The curved blades are slashing weapons, so combat is close up, like lightsaber distance. Curves blades are rarely if ever used for thrusting.

Others are one-handed weapons. These include short swords, hand axes, flails, and throwing weapons. Short swords include dueling rapiers (like in Princess Bride) and a basic sword (like in Troy or Gladiator). They are designed for light weight, speed, and accuracy. Rapiers are used primarily for thrusting and you look to hit a specific target. Often rapiers were used for duels to first blood rather than death. Rapiers blades are often very flexible and many of them can bend like the sport fencing swords I use. The basic short sword is just like your typical broadsword or long sword, just shorter and used for slashing and thrusting. Hand axes are just a one handed version of the heavy axe but sometimes can be used for throwing (like a tomohawk). A flail is a small rod and chain with a heavy ball at the end. It's like a ball and chain, but designed for one handed use. It is meant for bludgeoning, so a hit=kill, a miss=nothing. Throwing weapons include daggers, knives, and the like. Many times, soldiers using one-handed weapons will also carry a shield. Shields can be used for defense and offense. A blow with a shield can easily take someone down, and it can be leathal if the edges are sharpened.

A few weapons can be used for either one or two hands. Some straight swords can be wielded with one or two hands. So can a spear. Greeks often used spears as a thrusting weapon, and used them with one hand. But if the thrust misses, a spear in one hand is often hard to use in close combat. A spear in two hands can be very useful, much like staff with a pointy end.

Finally is the archers. There are mainly two types of bows: long bows and cross-bows. There are others, but I won't get into them now. The long bow is designed for distance like for sentries on the battlements of a castle/fort, and for the main battles. Cross bows are for accuracy and shorter range, often prefered in the heat of battle. But note that you can draw and shoot seven long bow arrows in the same time it takes to shoot a cross bow and reload.

Some I like to do in my battle scenes is cross weapon styles. One of my favorite fight scenes I wrote is a spear vs a rapier. Very different fighting styles but it works. These are more guidelines than actual rules, so play with them. There are weapons like a haliberd which is a spear with an axe head attached. Be creative, but keep in mind realistic physics of the weapons.

I'll try to give some battle tactics later.

Wow Fencer, that is so helpful! Thanks so much for taking the time to post all that!

I have lots of battle scenes in my book too, but I have no idea how realistic they are. I find myself skimming over the details for the sake of avoiding potential unrealistic actions. I've always wanted to take fencing classes, but sadly there's nothing in my area.

Again, THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU!!!

I'm just getting warmed up. That was just details on the weapons themselves. I've haven't gotten into the tactics and people think in battle...until now. So I am going to describe mindsets in duels and in large battles.

First for duels: this will be regardless of weapon and I will specify it when I give an example. First off, every single person who engages in combat has a unique fighting style based on their character. Personally, I am a defensive fencer and I will protect myself long before I attack, unless I have to. Other people are pure offensive, can only attack, but can't defend worth a darn. Some are timid, others are fearless. Some are nervous, others have an air of confidence about them. Some tense up, either in defense or for an offensive burst, other stand tall in confidence or laziness. So find a fighting style that fits your character first.

In the duel, the opponents always have some moment where they recognize each other before crossing blades. Some salute, others stare, and others still just charge. Emotions and setting greatly determine this. Peter just saw his brother get stabbed by the White Witch and threw all his anger into his fighting style and charge. The White Witch, however, stood full of confidence, slowly approached, and knew exactly what Peter's first move would be. In King Arthur, Tristan and the Saxon leader stood still with locked eyes for a moment without saying a word. In Mossflower (Redwall), Martin addressed Tsarmina before engaging. Like with the fighting style, have the two duelists meet in a manner that fits the character.

For the sword fight itself, many authors use words like smack, block, stab, and swing to describe sword actions. These may portray the actions the author wants, but it also makes it very clear the author doesn't know much if any about sword play. You don't have to be an expert on swordplay, but some of the basic terms really help make the fight believable. Nearly every single defensive action should really be called a parry. It is the action that prevents the blade from hitting the target. It denies access from blade to target. A beat is the exact same action as a parry, only it is offensive instead of defensive. Never use stab in a fight. Thrust is much better as it depicts the action of aiming the tip of the sword straight for the opponent. Swing is also misused. When you use swing, you think of baseball bat and you throw your whole weight and body into it. Bad idea. It is very easy for an opponent to pick up on it, it is much slower, and shows lack of skill. But if that is the intended action, use it. Slash and cut are much better words to use, as the motions are done with wrist and elbows, without throwing the shoulders into the action. It is smaller, which makes it harder to see in advance, and much quicker. Compare the baseball bat vs a fly swatter in terms of speed and accuracy.

The next big thing that duelists keep in mind is distance from each other. Fencers keep a distance to where the tips of our blades are barely crossing. We do this because we want to be close enough to launch an attack that will hit, and at the same time, be far away enough that we can see an attack coming. But sport fencing is 10x faster than any other sword fight, in part due to the light weight and flexible weapons, and also due to the saftey and not needing to fear that our lives are at stake. The distance that needs to be kept between dueling rivals will vary due to character and weapon. Anyone fighting against a spear will stay back until he can get an opening, parry the spear head to the side, and close the distance to get past the spear's tip. Same with rapiers. But with slashing curved weapons like katanas or scimitars, the distance it much closer almost to where they could strike with punches or kicks. Think about the fighting style, aggressive/defensive, timid/fearless, etc and the weapons (their reach) to see what distance each character should be from their opponent. Getting the other to have thier distance off is a key part of the strategy in a duel.

Now for large scale battles:

The first thing to work on is not the battle plan or the scale. What is the battle for? What is the goal? How does this battle carry the plot to the next set of scenes? A battle scene that acts as a time filler (seen often in Pirates of the Carribean, X-Men, Matrix, and even Star Wars prequels) does not help the story. In a book, each battle scene needs a purpose that will reveal things about the characters, culture, and/or advance the plot to the next set of things. Once you determine a battle scene is worth having, then think about these things below.

First thing all general's did before going into battle was scout out the battlefield. Where is your battle taking place? A forest? An open field? Beside a river? In the ocean? Take note of the natural setting. In the historical battle of Sterling (depicted differently in Braveheart), William Wallace trapped the English cavalry against a winding river that made the land swampy, which naturally slowed them down. Is the battle in a castle? Where are pillars, staircases, and open areas? Are there sheets hanging to dry? Are their archers up on the sides of the walls or on the roofs? Is there a steep cliff that could cause certain death? If in a forest, what is in a forest that the defending army could use for its advantage? Think about the setting and a myriad of strategies can come up from that alone.

Military leaders often used their archers, cavalry, and infintry in a rock-paper-sisscors mindset. Archers could take out cavalry, cavalry could beat infintry, and infintry could take out the archers. Needless to say, distance plays a critical role. Almost always, archers went first so they didn't end up killing thier own troops. Most leaders also kept parts of thier army back for reserves to fill in where a weakness was found. Setting can play a huge role as to where they should be kept as well.

You can be creative with this as well. Seige towers were a known technology way back in Biblical times. I designed a seige tower for one battle scene that could not only get troops to the walls, but fire boulders from the middle of it, like a slingshot/crossbow. This could get troops on the walls and weaken the walls in the process. Distance from archers on a mountain top or castle walls also affect arrow range, so if an army gets too close, it is easy picking.

So the best advice I have for you to do your own battle scene is the think about the terrain. If you have a fantasy world where creatures can fly (or your characters can fly), that really spices things up. But really think about the setting and what kind of tactics could be used with a given arena.

If you want any more, please say so.

That's really interesting, Fencer! I don't usually think about battle scenes very much. If you don't mind, I'm saving your advice in a word document.

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU Fencer!!! (Again ) Seriously, that helps me so much. I will definitely be coming back to these posts when it comes time to edit my battle scenes. *bookmarks this page*

Not a problem. The other thing to think about is what you have in your army. That and your setting are what determines a battle. LWW is a great example here. Peter had centaurs, fauns, griffins, archers, a rhino, a phoenix, and the terrain. The centaurs, fauns, and rhino were needed for the cavalry charge. THe griffins made a great arial assault while archers were out of range. His archers covered their retreat to use the the landscape to break up the Witch's army. It was a brilliant strategy, for what he had to work with. It wasn't perfect though. I personally, would have waited until the calvary charge was already initiated so the griffin's boulder attack hit right before the charge. That would have broken up the initial force to make the calvary charge much more effective.

If you have a regular medieval style army, take assetts of what you have in your army. Take advantange of terrain to aid one army, or hinder another. If you have fantasy elements in there, use those advantages. If a character can fly, give him/her a bow and arrow to pick off enemies from a distance up high. Using Avatar: Last Airbender concepts for example. If you have an Air bender and Water bender fighting in the same side, have them use thier powers together for some fun and cool effects. Be creative. Combine things, mix them up, tweak them. Think about what a character/creature could do and take advantage of those abilities. It would be sad if all an Earth bender could do it lift rocks. If they really though about thier powers and concentrated, they could cause an earthquake or something like that. Have fun with it.

I'm glad my experience and understanding of combat has helped you. Please feel free to ask for more assistance at any time. I am often seen here and always a PM away. Let me know how it goes.

Thank you so much FencerforJesus, you've helped me a lot. Since I don't really know the correct terms, I've been dodging them by mostly staying in the head of my main character so it'd be something like "She was good, I thought as our swords clashed together" It works decently enough if there's only like one encounter, but I want to get into it.

Just a curious question, does anyone write the last chapter first to their story? And does it work? I've heard that some people do that, but personally I don't like it.

*attempts to catch up*

I love to write, especially stories about princesses/medieval stuff. I have written two stories/short books, one called 'Isabella I' and the other called 'The Tale of Ana Main'. I love to name my characters and stuff. Does any one else like writing about that stuff?

The book I'm working on currently is set in the sixteenth century in a king's court; it's not quite medieval, but it's historical. Ish. I've had a lot of fun researching, but there's quite a lot I've made up as well!

I'm currently in the middle of editing. And by "editing", I mean "completely rewriting/deleting scenes/adding in new ones".

Tell me about it! I've found that editing almost always means that. It's fun though, after battling through deletions and additions, to come out at the end to a story that is - if not remarkably so - is better. I've just completed a "story edit" where I was very rough with my plot. I moved a lot around and deleting and added several scenes. It's nowhere near perfect, but that's where the next stage comes in. Now I'm "rough tuning" where I'm trying to make what I've done look a little more presentable. Hopefully then I can fine-tune and finish!

I also strongly recommend attending writer's conferences.

I've never been to one of the ones where writers pitch their work, and I'm not sure I ever want to! I don't think they're common here (in the UK). I actually don't know of any.

I would recommend writing workshops and writing groups. There is nothing more challenging and encouraging than being part of a good writing group! Even if it's a friend who also has a real interest in writing.

There's no real formula for getting published, but I think you should read and write as much as possible. I subscribe to Writer's Digest (though I think I'm going to switch to a British magazine) which means I get a regular dose of tips and tricks, and I am slowly collecting books on how to write. (My dad helps a lot, actually, and has found me loads of them in charity shops!) Not only do all these help my writing but they've really increased my knowledge of the writing business. When I - hopefully - seek publication later this year, I know a lot more about what to expect.

And speaking of that, I have to comment on the self publishing debate ... personally, I just don't think I could do it. I think it's because though I would consider making and buying my own book, I would really struggle with selling it. There are different packages to help you distribute and promote, but it still means you're in charge of it - all of it. Though I'm learning a lot about the business, I would not feel comfortable selling my book knowing so little. However, there are lots of people for whom self publishing is ideal, and I believe that if it's done right, with lots of consideration and planning, it can be a great success. For me I don't think it's right.

I'm hoping to send my book to a publisher soon. It would be great if I could start to get it sent away by NaNo! Is anyone taking part this year? It'll be my third year in a row and I really can't wait. I love National Novel Writing Month! (Shameless plug for those who don't know about it yet ... ) It's a great way to really focus your writing time.

Slightly randomly, I taught myself to touch type a couple of months ago and it has made such a difference to my writing. I'd really encourage everyone to give it a try if you haven't done so already!

I'm glad my experience and understanding of combat has helped you. Please feel free to ask for more assistance at any time. I am often seen here and always a PM away. Let me know how it goes.

I might take you up on that, Fencer. Thanks so much!

Just a curious question, does anyone write the last chapter first to their story? And does it work? I've heard that some people do that, but personally I don't like it.

Really? I've never heard of that. I guess people who do that are trying to work toward a certain ending? I suppose that makes sense, but I always write in chronological order. I might not know where my story is going to end up, but that's the fun part. I'd rather let my characters take me along for the ride than force them to steer in a certain direction.

AJAiken, I've never done NaNoWriMo before, but I really want to this year. A break from my work-in-progress would be good for me, and besides, I have a few ideas floating around in my head that I'd love to try out.