Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

So, I have no doubt that worldwide news networks will also make the production, or at least parts of it, worldwide, maybe translated, on Norway's own evening news. Especially when Norway's own monarchy is descended from Queen Maud of Norway, the sister of George V of UK, & daughter of UK's Edward VII.

Oh, I'm sure it will be televised live on Norwegian TV too (unless there are any British copyright restrictions against it). Queen Elisabeth's funeral last year was on, most of the day, over here. It's made simple by us having only one hour's time difference, we won't need to wait for the evening news (although it will no doubt be repeated there as well). I believe I watched some of the funeral on Norwegian TV, but I also followed BBC to get the British commentaries and the English subtitles for hymns and some other parts. I wanted the actual texts, not the translations, and I guess that will be even more so with the coronation ceremony - I hope they will include some subtitles there as well.

Yes, King Charles and King Harald are cousins of some sort, second or third, perhaps, and probably once removed - I would have to work that out or find it somewhere. King Harald's father and grandfather, kings Olav and Haakon, escaped from Nazi occupied Norway in 1940 and stayed in England for the rest of the war. King Olav and the Queen Mother were close friends, and the links between the two royal families have been kept up with the younger generations as well.

I'm actually pleased that King Charles kept his name and didn't change it to any of his other options. Yes, the previous holders of the name may not have the best reputations, but now he can change that "tradition" and become a good King Charles.

Coracle, did you enjoy the Coronation chicken on a sandwich, though? That is the question. 

@Courtenay: Oh yes, I remember that being on when I lived near London — it was billed as a sort of tragi-comedy in (supposedly) Shakespearean style, imagining Charles triggering a constitutional crisis almost as soon as he becomes King. I didn't bother seeing it at the time and I suspected I wasn't missing much!! 

I did take a quick look online for that play, finding its plot on Wikipedia. I also found a poster for that play, with a crowned King Charles III, two plasters crossways over his mouth, which sums up the plot, perfectly. It isn't the only historical fiction inspired, at least partly, by British history. I wonder if anyone here has read Diane Gabaldon's Outlander series, or have seen its TV adaptations? Or George R R Martin's books on which the TV Game of Thrones is based? I was most fascinated to read George R R Martin's foreword to King without a Kingdom, the last in Maurice Druon's series, The Accursed Kings, in which George R R Martin found inspiration for his Game of Thrones series. According to Mr Martin, the real-life French Capets & the English Plantagenets would give the fictitious Starks & Lannisters a run for their money. 

@Courtenay: Most commonly in history, it refers to a Queen Consort, the wife of a king. But it can also mean Queen Regnant, which is what Elizabeth II was — an actual female monarch in her own right

Down through English history there would have been no Queens Regnant at all, if the likes of Henry VIII had been able to get his own way. But even Henry, the 1st of that name, had no choice but to nominate his daughter, the Empress Matilda, as Queen of England after he died, when his own son & heir, William Adelin, died in the White Ship disaster, in 1120 AD. However, her cousin, King Stephen, usurped the throne, claiming it through his mother, Adela, Henry 1's sister. When King Stephen's own son, Eustace, died before he did, he agreed to be succeeded by the widowed Empress Matilda's eldest son with her second husband, Geoffrey, Henry II Plantagenet. And though Henry VIII was succeeded by Edward VI, the prince mentioned in Mark Twain's The Prince and the Pauper, he also died as a teenager, having caught measles. He was succeeded by his half-sisters, the Tudor Queens, Mary 1 & Elizabeth 1, both buried in Westminster Abbey, where Mary, Queen of Scots, a Queen in her own right, is also buried. 

At a 2011 CHOGM in Perth, Western Australia, Queen Elizabeth II nominated changes in the Succession from Male Preferred to Absolute Primogeniture, which came into effect in 2013, meaning that if anything happened to Prince George, it would be Princess Charlotte who would be her father's heir, rather than Prince Louis, their younger brother. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

Coracle, did you enjoy the Coronation chicken on a sandwich, though? That is the question. 

After 23 years, my memory of it is dim! Probably liked it well enough.

As for the production of the Charles play, I saw it in 2019 in West London (the Judi Dench Playhouse, Questors Theatre, Ealing). I think the title role went to a man who looked enough like the real Charles, but he struggled with a long, wordy part. If you want to know more, google it.

@Coracle: I think the title role went to a man who looked enough like the real Charles, but he struggled with a long, wordy part. If you want to know more, google it.

I'm surprised that the actor had such a long & wordy part, given that the poster showed a gagged Charles III, wearing his crown. I gather the play was all about free speech, & some British legal decisions so I won't look any further.  

@Varnafinde: I wanted the actual texts, not the translations, and I guess that will be even more so with the coronation ceremony - I hope they will include some subtitles there as well....

King Olav and the Queen Mother were close friends, and the links between the two royal families have been kept up with the younger generations as well.

I'm actually pleased that King Charles kept his name and didn't change it to any of his other options. Yes, the previous holders of the name may not have the best reputations, but now he can change that "tradition" and become a good King Charles.

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the Coronation ceremony. I most sincerely hope it will be in modern English, when people today might struggle with the sort of Shakespearean English used in the liturgy for Queen Elizabeth's coronation, still used in normal church services for a couple of decades afterwards, until the 1970's, I think it was, when new editions of the Bible, not to mention Thomas Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer were produced in more easily understood Modern English. 

Are King Haakon & his Queen coming to the Coronation, also, to represent Norway? I would imagine so, when the Norwegian Royal family are as close to the British Royal family as you say, & when I've heard that several Kings & Queens have been invited. It will be interesting to see what other Heads of State might also be attending. Some Heads of Government as well, when our own Australian Prime Minister says he has been invited. 

If there is one thing I noted about Queen Elizabeth's coronation, when I watched it on TV more recently, it was when, in her Coronation oath, she pledged to serve the people, whether her life was long or short. When she died, within two days of her last Royal duty, to swear in Liz Truss as UK's Prime Minister, she can be said to have fulfilled her coronation pledge magnificently. After so long as UK's monarch, she will be a really hard act for King Charles III to follow, but I'm sure that he will do his best as King, even though he is already nearly 75 years of age.

Posted by: @coracle

The official Coronation dish is 'Coronation quiche'. There is plenty of discussion online ('beans in a quiche!?') and you can find the recipe easily.

Oh yes, I heard about the official Coronation Quiche on the radio and just went "ugh"!!   I'm not a huge fan of quiche, or of broad beans, let alone of broad beans in a quiche... I'd give it a try if someone served it to me, but I'd prefer Coronation Chicken myself.

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

@Varnafinde: I wanted the actual texts, not the translations, and I guess that will be even more so with the coronation ceremony - I hope they will include some subtitles there as well....

King Olav and the Queen Mother were close friends, and the links between the two royal families have been kept up with the younger generations as well.

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the Coronation ceremony. I most sincerely hope it will be in modern English, when people today might struggle with the sort of Shakespearean English used in the liturgy for Queen Elizabeth's coronation, still used in normal church services for a couple of decades afterwards, until the 1970's, I think it was, when new editions of the Bible, not to mention Thomas Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer were produced in more easily understood Modern English. 

Are King Haakon & his Queen coming to the Coronation, also, to represent Norway? I would imagine so, when the Norwegian Royal family are as close to the British Royal family as you say, & when I've heard that several Kings & Queens have been invited. It will be interesting to see what other Heads of State might also be attending. Some Heads of Government as well, when our own Australian Prime Minister says he has been invited. 

I would guess that when the liturgies in the Book of Common Prayer were modernised, they would do an overhaul of the coronation liturgy as well (although it may not be included in that Book). It seems the new King wants to simplify things, so if there is a version in simpler language, he might well choose that.

I just checked the Norwegian calendar of royal duties for the next few weeks, and it turns out that Norway will be represented in Westminster Abbey by Crown Prince Haakon and the Crown Princess. Whether they were invited rather than the King and Queen, or whether the King (Harald, actually) has some health issues causing him to delegate the task to his son, I do not know.

King Harald and his Queen were certainly present at Queen Elizabeth's funeral last year. I noticed that in Westminster Abbey he was sitting at the end of his pew, right next to her coffin, closer to her than her children in the front row were.

@Varnafinde: I would guess that when the liturgies in the Book of Common Prayer were modernised, they would do an overhaul of the coronation liturgy as well (although it may not be included in that Book). It seems the new King wants to simplify things, so if there is a version in simpler language, he might well choose that.

I just checked the Norwegian calendar of royal duties for the next few weeks, and it turns out that Norway will be represented in Westminster Abbey by Crown Prince Haakon and the Crown Princess.

I still have a copy of The Book of Common Prayer which I was given at my 31/10/1962 confirmation & which I still treasure. It is a lovely little book with illustrations, like the Adoration of the Shepherds, No room at the inn, & Ruth & Naomi, among others. Published by Collins in London, it has all the regular services, including Holy Communion, weddings, baptisms, christenings & funerals. As well as the churching of women, it has psalms, general hymns, & the ordination of deacons, priests & even bishops.

But though that little book has prayers for the anniversary of the day of accession of the Sovereign, there isn't an actual Coronation service, which, I think, would be "bespoke", that is, tailored for each new Sovereign, dusting off past Coronations to do so. So far, all that I have heard is that Holy Communion will be a part of the service. The language in my little book is replete with all the "Thees, Thous, Thy, & Thine" which are no longer used in the English-speaking world. It is easy enough for me to read, but how it is spoken in a ceremony & how the audience hears, is a different kettle of fish, when there are so many dialects in English, including in North America, Australia & in New Zealand. 

I also have a 1978 Australian Prayer Book: for use together with The Book of Common Prayer 1662, published by the Standing Committee of the General Synod of the Church of England in Australia, Sydney. It uses Modern English, that is to say, no thee's, thy's, thou's, ye, or thine's etc. However, it only has the sorts of week-by-week services one would expect to have, such as Holy Communion, Christenings, Weddings & Funerals, plus Morning & Evening services

I was looking at a magazine which was talking about Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway, who must be the wife of Crown Prince Haakon, and there have been other Norwegian Royalty who have been mentioned in the Press, like Princess Ingrid Alexandra, which is where I may have heard about Crown Prince Haakon, which is why I mentioned him. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

But though that little book has prayers for the anniversary of the day of accession of the Sovereign, there isn't an actual Coronation service, which, I think, would be "bespoke", that is, tailored for each new Sovereign, dusting off past Coronations to do so. So far, all that I have heard is that Holy Communion will be a part of the service. The language in my little book is replete with all the "Thees, Thous, Thy, & Thine" which are no longer used in the English-speaking world. It is easy enough for me to read, but how it is spoken in a ceremony & how the audience hears, is a different kettle of fish, when there are so many dialects in English, including in North America, Australia & in New Zealand. 

It'll be interesting to see what does get included in the actual coronation service — I'm guessing, as you say, it gets at least partly rewritten or revamped for each occasion. This will be only the second time in history that a British monarch's coronation is shown on TV, incidentally!

I haven't attended or listened to a huge number of Church of England services, but in my experience the language they use depends on the occasion. It's actually not that unusual to hear readings from the old Authorised Version (also called the King James Version) of the Bible or from the original Book of Common Prayer — yes, with all the thou's and thee's and so on (otherwise known as the English language's actual second person singular / familiar pronouns ) — if it's a very formal, ceremonial kind of occasion.

As to whether or not people from different English-speaking backgrounds will find that kind of language difficult, I was certainly familiar with it even as a child in 1980s / 1990s Australia, despite coming from a totally non-religious family, but I did mostly read the right books...   However, it's widely thought that Charles III will be quite a modernising monarch and it wouldn't be surprising if he chooses to use modern language versions of the Bible and any other texts that come into the coronation ceremony. I think the New International Version is the usual modern translation used in the C of E, but I'm not sure.

Charles himself has also already indicated that while he is a committed Christian and now the head of the Church of England, he respects all faiths and wants people of all religious backgrounds to feel included, so it's been speculated that there will be interfaith elements in the ceremony to reflect the diversity of modern Britain. I don't think any specific plans have been released or official statements made — I'm pretty sure we'll only find out on the day!

Posted by: @courtenay

It'll be interesting to see what does get included in the actual coronation service — I'm guessing, as you say, it gets at least partly rewritten or revamped for each occasion. This will be only the second time in history that a British monarch's coronation is shown on TV, incidentally!

Yes, you are right, when it surely would have been the first time that even the proclamations of the monarch, after Queen Elizabeth's death, were also done on TV. I doubt there would have been such television coverage for Queen Elizabeth II, herself, when she returned from Kenya, in 1952, though she must have gone through similar processes, as Charles did, last year, between 8th September, & 19th September, when the Queen's funeral was held. I remember we did have Movietone Newsreels when I was growing up in the 1950's, but you had to go to the movies to see them, when they were often fillers before the intermission. 

Posted by: @courtenay I haven't attended or listened to a huge number of Church of England services, but in my experience the language they use depends on the occasion. It's actually not that unusual to hear readings from the old Authorised Version (also called the King James Version) of the Bible or from the original Book of Common Prayer — yes, with all the thou's and thee's and so on (otherwise known as the English language's actual second person singular / familiar pronouns ) — if it's a very formal, ceremonial kind of occasion.

I think it depends on where you see an Anglican church service, when some dioceses are more "High Church", or Anglo-Catholic than others, who are almost Presbyterian or Methodist by comparison. I normally attend church locally, but last Sunday, when our family went to a Petersham church, where my father's ashes are interred in the columbarium, the Morning Service was very relaxed, when the minister was on holidays with his family, compared with the service I attended the week, before, though I thought the sermon was very interesting and relevant. But, since the Pandemic shut down churches in NSW, only the collect for the day was from the Australian Prayer book.  

As to whether or not people from different English-speaking backgrounds will find that kind of language difficult, I was certainly familiar with it even as a child in 1980s / 1990s Australia, despite coming from a totally non-religious family, but I did mostly read the right books...   However, it's widely thought that Charles III will be quite a modernising monarch and it wouldn't be surprising if he chooses to use modern language versions of the Bible and any other texts that come into the coronation ceremony. I think the New International Version is the usual modern translation used in the C of E, but I'm not sure.

The New International Version is the one we use locally, but not the same as the version which was used in the inner-city church I went to, last Sunday. I don't expect that Varnafinde would necessarily find it difficult to follow such language, even though English surely would not be her first language, & when I understand from her lovely post that she goes to considerable trouble to make sure she does understand. But my Scottish-born husband of nearly 52 years, who still retains his native accent, has been partially deaf since childhood, & whose Aussie wife's "Strine" accent   he says he can't understand , & who has never been a totally willing reader of any books, however interesting, might well find such language difficult to follow.   

Charles himself has also already indicated that while he is a committed Christian and now the head of the Church of England, he respects all faiths and wants people of all religious backgrounds to feel included, so it's been speculated that there will be interfaith elements in the ceremony to reflect the diversity of modern Britain. I don't think any specific plans have been released or official statements made — I'm pretty sure we'll only find out on the day!

Yes, it will be interesting to see to what extent they participate in the service, though I suspect that, apart from maybe the Jewish or Muslim representatives, who worship the same Almighty God, whether they call their God, Jehovah or Allah, the rest would be mainly observers. But then, I could be wrong, one way or another. Besides a Holy Communion service, maybe there are different elements in a Coronation, from the anointing of the King & Queen, which is where the canopies come in, to the sceptres, orbs & crowns for the occasion. When Queen Camilla is using Queen Mary's crown from 1911, rather than the Queen Mother's crown from 1937, does anyone know about sceptres and orbs? What are they for, exactly? When Queen Consorts are more frequent than a Queen who is sovereign, just how many sceptres, I wonder, are there, that really could be used by a consort?

I have no idea about sceptres and orbs - but just for a guess I'd say they may have been reused earlier as well. They are not quite such spectacular items as the crowns, so there's possibly less interest in updating them.

I think it was a good idea not to use the Koh-i-noor diamond. It might have been too much of a symbol of the old colonialism, when there is discussion of its actual ownership. Perhaps was it presented as a gift way back when an English monarch first got it - but was there undue pressure on the giver? I don't mean to start a discussion on this in here, just to say that in this way there will be less risk of a discussion of it on coronation day.

One item that seems to have been given back to its owners, is the Scottish coronation stone, the "Stone of Scone", or the "Stone of Destiny". An English king, Edward I, claimed it after a victory over the Scots in 1296. Most of the time from then, until it was returned to Scotland in 1996, it has been kept in the English coronation chair (which Edward built for it) in Westminster Abbey, used at English and British coronations.

There was an interval, though, from Christmas Eve 1950, when four Scottish students broke into the Abbey to take the Stone back to Scotland, until four months later, when they placed it on the high altar at the ruined Arbroath Abbey, hoping that the Scottish Church would keep it - which they didn't. It was sent back and later used at Queen Elizabeth's coronation.

Since 1996 the Stone has been kept with the Scottish crown jewels in Edinburgh Castle, but there are now plans to let it have its own museum closer to where it resided while it was used for the Scottish coronations.

But before that it will be used in London again. Probably some time this coming week (if it hasn't been done quietly already) it will be transported to Westminster Abbey and placed in its old space under the seat of the Coronation chair, so Charles will be crowned on it.

Posted by: @varna

I have no idea about sceptres and orbs - but just for a guess I'd say they may have been reused earlier as well. They are not quite such spectacular items as the crowns, so there's possibly less interest in updating them.

During the English Civil War which brought to power, Oliver Cromwell's Commonwealth, from 1649, to 1660, all the crowns, & other accoutrements, such as orbs & sceptres were melted down by his men. Only the Coronation Spoon, which is used for the King's anointing was saved. This spoon goes back to the 12th century, according to today's Australian Sunday Telegraph. St Edward's crown is the oldest of the crowns on display at the Tower of London, as far as I know. 

I think it was a good idea not to use the Koh-i-noor diamond. It might have been too much of a symbol of the old colonialism, when there is discussion of its actual ownership. Perhaps was it presented as a gift way back when an English monarch first got it - but was there undue pressure on the giver? I don't mean to start a discussion on this in here, just to say that in this way there will be less risk of a discussion of it on coronation day.

Yes, the Koh-i-noor diamond, has had a very turbulent history, & has been fought over by several potentates, even before it became part of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom. When there are multiple conflicting legends about this stone, perhaps it is best to leave it alone. Currently it is in the Queen Mother's Platinum Crown, where it is on display at the Tower of London, along with Queen Alexandra's Crown plus the framework of the crown used for Queen Adelaide, William IV's consort. 

Posted by: @varna

Since 1996 the Stone has been kept with the Scottish crown jewels in Edinburgh Castle, but there are now plans to let it have its own museum closer to where it resided while it was used for the Scottish coronations.But before that it will be used in London again. Probably some time this coming week (if it hasn't been done quietly already) it will be transported to Westminster Abbey and placed in its old space under the seat of the Coronation chair, so Charles will be crowned on it.

I've seen the Honours of Scotland in 2012, in Edinburgh Castle. These "Honours of Scotland" consist of not only the "Stone of Scone" but also the ancient Crown of Scotland, as well as the Sword of State for Scotland, plus a sceptre & a wand, amongst other jewellery. I understand that later this year, King Charles & Queen Camilla will also be crowned as King & Queen of Scots, in a ceremony at St Giles, down the Royal Mile, near Holyrood, with Edinburgh Castle at the top end. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

 but also the ancient Crown of Scotland, as well as the Sword of State for Scotland, plus a sceptre & a wand, amongst other jewellery.

I have seen those - I went to Edinburgh in 1995, before the Stone of Scone was returned, and saw that Crown and the other jewels. Beautiful!  

(I have also seen the coronation chair with the Stone in Westminster Abbey, some time back in the 1980s.)

I understand that later this year, King Charles & Queen Camilla will also be crowned as King & Queen of Scots, in a ceremony at St Giles, down the Royal Mile, near Holyrood, with Edinburgh Castle at the top end. 

I didn't know about that - sounds great! I guess it's a symbol of Scotland's extended independence, now that they've had a separate Scottish Parliament for about twentyfive years, and I believe some other separate institutions too. Or was Queen Elizabeth crowned as Queen of Scots as well?

Yesterday I read an obituary of the leader and last survivor of those four Scottish students, Ian Hamilton. He died last year aged 97, a few weeks after the Queen. The students were not prosecuted back in 1951, as the British Cabinet didn't want them to become either heroes or martyrs. They had raised Scottish awareness of independence, though, and were proud of it. Hamilton wrote a book (which I bought this month) about their adventure - perhaps I should write about it in the NW Books thread?  

The obituary also mentioned that in 2024, the Stone will be moved to Perth City Hall - so perhaps not a museum as a separate building, then, but some kind of permanent exhibition, in the area where it has its history.

For anyone who's interested, I was just reading this article from the BBC about the proceedings of the coronation ceremony: Your full guide to King Charles III's coronation It includes close-up pictures of many of the ceremonial items — including the orb and sceptre and the crowns that will be used on the day — and some explanations of what they symbolise and when they were made and so on.

Thank you so much for that link, Courtenay, it was most interesting to read all that information and some of the links included in it!

There was even a link to the liturgy that will be used ( https://www.churchofengland.org/coronation/liturgy ), with and without explanatory comments. This included the words "By longstanding tradition, the Archbishop of Canterbury authorises a new Liturgy for every Coronation" - which will explain why it is not included in the Book of Common Prayer. It makes sense, too, to personalise it for each new monarch, and include or leave out old words and traditions as seems most fitting. (There seems to be no lifting of coronets at the actual moment of putting on the crown. )

Quite a few thou's and thy's will be used - but not exclusively. Some Latin will be used, and even some Greek, in honor of the King's father Prince Philip - and the other languages of the UK, not just English, will be used in a hymn.

It's very much a church ceremony. The king not only swears to govern his peoples, according to their respective laws and customs, but also to maintain and preserve the Church of England (like he swore to uphold the Church of Scotland at the presentation on his first day as King). The King and Queen even take communion during the ceremony (but the congregation don't, as far as I can see).

Something that seems to be new, is that when he's being presented with various regalia, some of them are presented by female holders of different offices. I gather that this used to be a male only occasion, and some change is probably a good thing.

@varna Oh, that's excellent and really interesting! Quite a lot of variety in the wording used — some Modern English, some Early Modern (the thou's and thee's and haths and so on). Those seem to be mainly in the hymns and anthems and it looks like the style of English used depends on either how old the music is or which version of the words a modern composer has chosen to use. But none of it should be too difficult for anyone who's reasonably fluent in English to follow — I've seen much more difficult archaic language than that.

I'm particularly moved that they're including some Welsh and Irish and Scottish Gaelic, as well as Latin and Greek! It will be very interesting and, I think, very moving to watch and listen on the day. Thank you again for sharing that!