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Letter 13

Meltintalle
(@mel)
Member Moderator

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?

2. Why do you think Screwtape wants any strong personal taste eradicated from patients? In other words, what kind of "subtle attack" does liking something for its own sake protect against?

3. Back in Letter III, Screwtape advised Wormwood to let the little things aggravate the Patient as a sure way of leading him astray. Did that advice, as applied by the Enemy, undo them? Are there any other repeated points that have similar flip-sides?

We have hands that fashion and heads that know,
But our hearts we lost - how long ago! -- G. K. Chesterton

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Topic starter Posted : February 14, 2012 2:28 am
ValiantArcher
(@valiantarcher)
BC Head and G&B Mod Moderator

1. Although still calling Wormwood "dear" and calling himself "your affectionate uncle", Screwtape is obviously furious at Wormwood for his bungling of the Patient. ;))

2. Screwtape says that the danger of personal taste is that it is real, and therefore brings the Patient into touch with reality. If you have the real thing, you won't settle for a cheap imitation. :) (And I seem to have mashed two points here together but I think it still stands. ;))) Also, if you really care for something, you're not going to give it up for something as shallow as what Screwtape et co. would like to distract you with.

3. I would say, yes, that it was the little things in this case that undid all of Wormwood's (and Screwtape's!) work. I'm sure there are other pieces of advice that work the other way around, but I can't think of any right now. :)

Death is swallowed up in victory.

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Posted : February 19, 2012 11:25 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?
I'm not sure. From the beginning Screwtape has been criticizing and advising Wormwood (with an occasional praise thrown in). This letter might be a bit more critical and more focused on Wormwood's mistakes than the others. The last two letters were more small praise and advice.

2. Why do you think Screwtape wants any strong personal taste eradicated from patients? In other words, what kind of "subtle attack" does liking something for its own sake protect against?
If people don't think for themselves or don't have any strong tastes, they are more likely to be lead astray by what other people think and like (or by what devils want them to think and like. ;) ). I think it might be a progressive thing. If someone has one strong personal taste, the enjoyment they get out of it might encourage them to find others. The more personal tastes they have the less likely they are to fall in the trap of reading the "right" books, eating the "right" foods, doing the "right" things. If they are willing to like something and admit to liking it in public(especially something not popular), they probably aren't going care as much if the do the "right" things. The more strong personal tastes they have the fewer "pretend" tastes they have (in other words, the tastes they pretend to have or adopt only because they are the "right" ones.

3. Back in Letter III, Screwtape advised Wormwood to let the little things aggravate the Patient as a sure way of leading him astray. Did that advice, as applied by the Enemy, undo them? Are there any other repeated points that have similar flip-sides?
In a sense yes, the Enemy took little pleasures and used that lead the Patient closer to him. I can't think of any other points right now. Well, I'm not sure if this really counts, but Screwtape is often suggesting that the Patient should be kept in a sort of fantasy world / hazy mind set but the Enemy works in reality.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : February 26, 2012 1:10 pm
stargazer
(@stargazer)
Member Moderator

2. ValiantArcher and Twigs have summarized this well. Allowing the patient to discover and enjoy true pleasures - things he does simply for the joy of doing them, rather than for the praise of men or so others will think well of him - allowed him to become "forearmed against some of our subtlest modes of attack." True, good pleasures come from the Giver and those false imitations just don't cut it anymore.

Something else caught my eye: near the end of the letter, Screwtape urges his nephew to keep the patient from doing anything - as long as they can keep him thinking about things rather than doing them, they're okay. "Let him do anything but act." I was reminded of James's remark that "Faith without works is dead." (Maybe not a precise correlation, but an interesting one).

But all night, Aslan and the Moon gazed upon each other with joyful and unblinking eyes.

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Posted : April 3, 2012 8:31 am
Eustace
(@eustace)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?

I think his relationship has changed in a way. At first he was just trying to mento him, help him with little things that he had problems with and praise him for the stuff he did wright but give him a warning with it. But this one he seems to be angry or even just majorly upset with Wormwood. He did not really say Wormwood did anything right in this letter at all.

2. Why do you think Screwtape wants any strong personal taste eradicated from patients? In other words, what kind of "subtle attack" does liking something for its own sake protect against?

If you have a strong personal taste certain things can't tempt you in the least. If you are really againist something no one is going to be able to get you to do it by mere subtle attack. Liking something protects from going to something else that may be bad for you to get an the feeling of liking something.

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Posted : June 22, 2012 7:13 am
Ithilwen
(@ithilwen)
NarniaWeb Zealot

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?

Screwtape is chastising him for messing up in his goals.

2. Why do you think Screwtape wants any strong personal taste eradicated from patients? In other words, what kind of "subtle attack" does liking something for its own sake protect against?

From what he said in the letter, it sounds like it could get in the way of things. For example, if there was a really bad role model the tempter wanted the patient to get to know, and the bad role model disapproved of one of the patients hobbies, it could get in the way of a friendship forming.

3. Back in Letter III, Screwtape advised Wormwood to let the little things aggravate the Patient as a sure way of leading him astray...Are there any other repeated points that have similar flip-sides?

Considering that they're the enemy, and God is stronger than the enemy, I think everything has a flip side for them. ;)

~Riella =:)

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Posted : July 3, 2012 7:17 pm
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?

I don't think their relationship has changed on an emotional level. Screwtape and Wormwood still can't stand each each other. Only the pretext of being civil with each other (which has barely held up through the letters up till now) has been removed. On an authoritative level on the other hand, Wormwood's blunder has allowed Screwtape to reassert his dominance.

2. Why do you think Screwtape wants any strong personal taste eradicated from patients? In other words, what kind of "subtle attack" does liking something for its own sake protect against?

If you have a strong personal taste certain things can't tempt you in the least. If you are really against something no one is going to be able to get you to do it by mere subtle attack. Liking something protects from going to something else that may be bad for you to get an the feeling of liking something.

For example: One summer I was reading through plays that a professor had suggested. In addition at the time I was reading plays by an author who is well known, only because he was well known. It didn't take me long to realize that I didn't like those smutty plays and felt much more comfortable, both spiritually and aesthetically, reading Lewis and authors like him instead.

3. Back in Letter III, Screwtape advised Wormwood to let the little things aggravate the Patient as a sure way of leading him astray. Did that advice, as applied by the Enemy, undo them? Are there any other repeated points that have similar flip-sides?

In other words, did God's use of little pleasures lead this man back home? Indubitably.

As I continue to read the letters I'll try to keep the second question in mind to see if I can find any strategies that could be used both ways.

4.

Something else caught my eye: near the end of the letter, Screwtape urges his nephew to keep the patient from doing anything - as long as they can keep him thinking about things rather than doing them, they're okay. "Let him do anything but act." I was reminded of James's remark that "Faith without works is dead." (Maybe not a precise correlation, but an interesting one).

I was reminded of James as well.

5. [quote="The Screwtape Letters":1w46s6sx]As you ought to have known, the asphyxiating cloud which prevented your attacking the patient on his walk back from the old mill, is a well-known phenomenon. It is the Enemy's most barbarous weapon, and generally appears under certain modes not yet fully classified. Some humans are permanently surrounded by it and therefore inaccessible to us.

What is Lewis imaginatively describing here? The effect of prayer? The Holy Spirit Himself? How do you think some people stay permanently surrounded by this cloud?

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : July 31, 2012 5:04 am
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

1. Has anything changed in Screwtape's relationship with Wormwood? Why or why not?

I don't think their relationship has changed on an emotional level. Screwtape and Wormwood still can't stand each each other. Only the pretext of being civil with each other (which has barely held up through the letters up till now) has been removed. On an authoritative level on the other hand, Wormwood's blunder has allowed Screwtape to reassert his dominance.

(My emphasis)

I really think you've seen the truth about their relationship there - I just hadn't thought about it that way.

As some of the later letters show, they are forever competing against each other (and not in a nice way). Currently Wormwood is losing, and Screwtape is being mean about it. And dominant, as you say.

And I think that Lewis means to say that this is the nature of the tempters' world, not something particular to these two characters only.

5. [quote="The Screwtape Letters":2vwev0ln]As you ought to have known, the asphyxiating cloud which prevented your attacking the patient on his walk back from the old mill, is a well-known phenomenon. It is the Enemy's most barbarous weapon, and generally appears under certain modes not yet fully classified. Some humans are permanently surrounded by it and therefore inaccessible to us.

What is Lewis imaginatively describing here? The effect of prayer? The Holy Spirit Himself? How do you think some people stay permanently surrounded by this cloud?

It reminds me of the cloud that went with the people of Israel when they fled from Egypt.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit. Some people stay closer to him than others. And prayer could have an effect on that closeness.


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

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Posted : August 4, 2012 9:36 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

What is Lewis imaginatively describing here? The effect of prayer? The Holy Spirit Himself?

I'm really not sure. I would imagine it is a combination of different things. I'm sure the Holy Spirit plays a roll in it. It symbolizes the nearness of God. I think during prayer there would be the chance for this cloud but I don't think it necessarily takes place. We know from other letters that the demons are able to work on the patient while he is praying. I wonder if it is a time that God makes Himself known to the patient. A God sighting. The patient didn't necessary consciously seek God out but he found Him.

How do you think some people stay permanently surrounded by this cloud?

The more I think about it the more confused I get. We know that no one is perfect so whatever the cloud is, it does not prevent sin. Jesus was the only perfect human and we know that the devil was allowed to tempt him. I suppose it involves the Grace of God, prayer, and faith.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : August 5, 2012 8:53 am
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