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Chapter 17: The Clouds Burst

Lady Arwen
(@wren)
The Mermod Moderator

1. Why do you think Bilbo panicked and blew his cover? How is this like is moment of panic back in Hobbiton, and how is it different?

2. How do you think the Goblins and Bolg successfully navigated gathering so many and managed to get to the Lonely Mountain so quickly?

3. In Lord of the Rings, unnatural darkness is associated with Sauron, especially when he sends out his troops. Why do you think darkness came with the goblins in the battle of five armies?

4. In a very short amount of time, the warring factions regroup to fight the Goblins, and are at first successful. Why was their strategy effective, and what did it lose its effectiveness later on?

5. Why do you think Bilbo wished to make his last stand defending the Elven king?

6. Why would Bilbo be the most fond of recalling in later years the battle and the most proud of it, when it was his worse experience and he didn’t play an important role in it?

7. What do you think of the dwarves’ behavior in this chapter?

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Topic starter Posted : January 12, 2013 8:31 pm
ValiantArcher
(@valiantarcher)
BC Head and G&B Mod Moderator

1. Bilbo felt guilty and may've been afraid Bard would give him up; remember, he is more or less an honest burglar and covering up his deeds now would probably be rather dishonest to him.
Thorin was involved in both instances. ;)) However, the first time it was more a fear of what might be - never returning - and this time his fear and panic seems more well-grounded in that he was indeed responsible for what might come on his head.

2. Goblins seem to be pretty motivated by hatred and bloodlust, and they probably were expecting to find only the Dwarves at the mountain---revenge can be a powerful motivator to get things done. Also, the goblins are supposed to be pretty fast, partially at least because they can only be out during the night.

3. Well, the goblins can only come out at night, so the darkness was needed for them to effectively fight. And the darkness here was actually bats, which is kind of cool. ;))

4. It was effective at first because the goblins were expecting it and because they were able to keep the goblins from gaining the mountain. It fell apart, though, because the goblins were able to adjust to the unexpected forces and because they did vastly outnumber the good side as far as troops went.

5. The Elvenking is noble and friendly to Bilbo, and it would be more comforting in a way to die with him than as one Hobbit among so many soldiers. :)

6. Because it was very dramatic and what Hobbits could say they'd been in a battle? ;)) Also, hard experiences that stretch us and seem terrible at the time can make good stories later.

7. Thorin's actions are really out there; he is being incredibly strong headed and wrong in his actions still, and trying to throw Bilbo down was beyond the pale. I mostly feel sorry for the other Dwarves and wish one or some of them would've had the courage to stand up to Thorin; however, I understand the fear that probably motivated them to stay quiet. I do wonder if one of them would've interceded for Bilbo, though, if Gandalf hadn't.
I do like their actions near the end in coming out to defend their home and working with the Elves and Men---interestingly enough, dwarves, men AND elves do all come running to Thorin's call.

Death is swallowed up in victory.

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Posted : March 30, 2013 7:53 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. Why do you think Bilbo panicked and blew his cover? How is this like is moment of panic back in Hobbiton, and how is it different?
Thorin was probably intimidating and Bilbo had a desire to tell the truth. Both times he reacted when it would have been better to remain quiet. The second time he was quieter and didn’t completely lose his senses.

2. How do you think the Goblins and Bolg successfully navigated gathering so many and managed to get to the Lonely Mountain so quickly?
I suspect they had speedy messengers. They would want to help revenge the great goblin and past deaths so that would add speed to their feet. They had quite a bit of time between when the Great Goblin was killed and they arrived. The dwarves made several stops along the way.

3. In Lord of the Rings, unnatural darkness is associated with Sauron, especially when he sends out his troops. Why do you think darkness came with the goblins in the battle of five armies? I guess I never read it closely because I always associated the darkness with the cloud of bats (which was part of the reason.) I assume the bats are allies of the goblins. The rest of the darkness came from clouds. As for why there happened to be a storm right then I don’t know. Storms seem to have a way of appearing when it will add an appropriate mood to a story. I doubt the Necromancer was arranging storms just then since he had just “retreated.” There seem to be a lot of storms in the mountains so it could be as simple as that. I suppose there could be other forces at work. The clouds also parted at an opportune time. The storms and weather clouds seemed to come and go.

4. In a very short amount of time, the warring factions regroup to fight the Goblins, and are at first successful. Why was their strategy effective, and what did it lose its effectiveness later on?
The goblins fell for the trick and were fenced in the valley. Some goblins climbed behind and above some of the troops. There were too many goblins.

5. Why do you think Bilbo wished to make his last stand defending the Elven king?
I don’t know what to think. He might have felt that he owed him something since he had been living off his food. Maybe he was impressed by the Elvenking’s treatment of him when he delivered the Arkenstone. The Elvenking did say, “You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf princes than many that have looked more comely in it” and honored him.

6. Why would Bilbo be the most fond of recalling in later years the battle and the most proud of it, when it was his worse experience and he didn’t play an important role in it?
I suppose it is a big deal to be in a battle. People are expected to be proud of being in a battle. It was probably the part of the story the Hobbits could understand the best since battles feature prominently in stories (and Hobbits had fought in a few). Aravis seemed quite impressed that Shasta had been in a battle even though he hadn’t done much.

7. What do you think of the dwarves’ behavior in this chapter?
Thorin is stubborn and nasty. He is acting like a spoiled child. At the beginning of the chapter, he doesn’t follow through on the terms even though it really won’t cost him anything – Bilbo has already been promised that amount. He’d rather shed blood and get it all – not unlike what a dragon would do. He finally does the right thing when he comes out of the mountain to help fight. He is still proud and expects to be seen as such (He calls people to him instead of going to them). It is encouraging that some of the dwarves felt shame and pity when Bilbo left. Dain and his folk are loyal to their own kind but that seems to cloud their judgment. It isn’t necessary for them to attack the men and elves. They are willing to drop the quarrel once the goblins arrive.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : June 20, 2013 3:09 pm
Ithilwen
(@ithilwen)
NarniaWeb Zealot

1. Why do you think Bilbo panicked and blew his cover?

Because he's honest at heart, and needed Thorin to know the truth.

2. How do you think the Goblins and Bolg successfully navigated gathering so many and managed to get to the Lonely Mountain so quickly?

Because Middle Earth is filled with a great number of creatures that are itching for a fight.

3. In Lord of the Rings, unnatural darkness is associated with Sauron, especially when he sends out his troops. Why do you think darkness came with the goblins in the battle of five armies?

Because they are evil like Sauron, even though they are not Suaron himself.

4. In a very short amount of time, the warring factions regroup to fight the Goblins, and are at first successful. Why was their strategy effective, and what did it lose its effectiveness later on?

If I remember the story correctly, they began losing when the Goblins changed their strategy and situated armies where they didn't expect any armies to come.

5. Why do you think Bilbo wished to make his last stand defending the Elven king?

Because he's one of the few who are kind to Bilbo, now that the Dwarves are mad over the Arkenstone "betrayal".

6. Why would Bilbo be the most fond of recalling in later years the battle and the most proud of it, when it was his worse experience and he didn’t play an important role in it?

Because it was one of the biggest, most important things he had witnessed on the journey.

~Riella =:)

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Posted : July 1, 2013 5:46 pm
Meltintalle
(@mel)
Member Moderator

1. I don't think I've ever read this passage as Bilbo panicking... at least not in the losing his head sense of the word. I see it as Bilbo speaking up in an attempt to bring Thorin back to his senses and get them all out of the mess happily. It didn't work that way. :( So I see it as nothing like the (in)famous "Struck by lightning! Struck by lightning!" moment, and more as another example of Bilbo trying to use his solid hobbit business sense. Or, to put it another way, in Hobbiton he was ruled by fear and in Erebor he did what he did because of his fear.

2. Drums. Drums in the deep. ;)

3. I like Valia's answer that it was a strategic, created, darkness.

4. Strategy isn't always the answer when you are battling overwhelming numbers.

5. Because Bilbo came to respect the king while forced to live in his palace and closely observe the doings of the elves. Also, Bilbo has a fascination with elves.

6. Because it ended 'well' and people would find it interesting to hear about? (Interestingly, the battle is only about three pages long and not really what I remember about this story. ;)) )

7. The dwarves are... eh. At least Thorin changes his mind in the end, but mounting a heroic charge is not the same as thinking things through and behaving in a decent fashion to your neighbors.

We have hands that fashion and heads that know,
But our hearts we lost - how long ago! -- G. K. Chesterton

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Posted : July 4, 2013 6:46 am
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

2. How do you think the Goblins and Bolg successfully navigated gathering so many and managed to get to the Lonely Mountain so quickly?

I think they had planned this for a while - for one thing, they had wanted revenge ever since the Great Goblin had been killed, and they had also known about Smaug's death for some days. So an army might have been gathered, hoping for an opportunity, and then that opportunity presented itself, and they only had to take off.

3. In Lord of the Rings, unnatural darkness is associated with Sauron, especially when he sends out his troops. Why do you think darkness came with the goblins in the battle of five armies?

In both cases, the darkness is associated with evil. This was written first - and it makes sense that evil forces are also dark forces. Some of it was in this case caused by bats, and some bats are evil in other of Tolkien's writings as well.

5. Why do you think Bilbo wished to make his last stand defending the Elven king?

I think he was thinking very highly of the Elves after having stayed at Rivendell. These weren't exactly the same family, but they were still Elves.

6. Why would Bilbo be the most fond of recalling in later years the battle and the most proud of it, when it was his worse experience and he didn’t play an important role in it?

Wishful thinking, perhaps? ;)


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

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Posted : July 31, 2013 6:39 pm
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