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Chapter 15-The Gathering of the Clouds

Lady Arwen
(@wren)
The Mermod Moderator

1. What do you think of the way Thorin and Bard conducted themselves in their negotiations? Are there things they should have done or said differently?
2. Why do you think the ravens had such good connections with the dwarves? Do you think the dragon spell might account for Thorin not taking Roac's advice?
3. Do you think Thorin would have listened to Bard if the Elvenking had not been present? What did the elves presence change about the dwarf/man relationship?

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Topic starter Posted : December 29, 2012 9:09 am
Meltintalle
(@mel)
Member Moderator

1. I think they were both very stiff and formal; perhaps overly so, given the results. I think they both should have bent a little; Bard's requests seem reasonable as reasonable to me as they did to Bilbo.

2a. ooooh, shiny! :p ...I have no better answer. ;))
2b. Roac didn't press his advice either, he just put it out there; but Thorin was being rather more mule-headed than usual

3. I think negotiations would have gone much better. I'm influenced by the movie here (since it's the most recent input of backstory info ;)) ) but I'd like to think that Thorin would have provided the aid to the dispossessed villagers that he and his people did not receive when Erebor went into exile and then felt smug about the superiority and generosity of dwarves vs. elves. However, with the elvenking there, and the dragon gone, ...it looked really, really bad to Thorin.

We have hands that fashion and heads that know,
But our hearts we lost - how long ago! -- G. K. Chesterton

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Posted : January 28, 2013 2:34 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. What do you think of the way Thorin and Bard conducted themselves in their negotiations? Are there things they should have done or said differently?
Thorin is unreasonable, especially if what Bard said about some of the treasure being from Dale was true. He ought to have at least repaid them on the spot even if they were armed. Bard handled himself pretty well. He probably could have used a softer tone (not so proud). It might have been a good idea to send the elves away (more about this later).
2. Why do you think the ravens had such good connections with the dwarves? Do you think the dragon spell might account for Thorin not taking Roac's advice?
They lived near each other and had worked out an agreement that was beneficial to both groups. I suppose over the years they built up a good relationship. They came to be loyal to each other. I think there were a lot of factors influencing Thorin. Thorin doesn't seem to like taking advice. Thorin is greedy and the dragon's spell strengthens that. Thorin also has a lot of pride and taking Roac's advice would hurt his pride (he'd be giving into others, taking the easy way out.) I think the dragon's spell affects people based on how greedy they are to begin with. Bilbo was only a little bit greedy for treasure (food is a different matter) so he was only a little effected by the spell. Thorin was greedy to begin with so he was greatly affected by the spell.
3. Do you think Thorin would have listened to Bard if the Elvenking had not been present? What did the elves presence change about the dwarf/man relationship?
I don't think Thorin was in the right frame of mind to listen. It is likely he would have been more willing to listen had the elves been far away. He is understandably irritated with the elves. Thorin sees the elves as his enemies and anyone associating with them is his enemy. He also seems to object to them coming with weapons.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : March 23, 2013 8:50 am
ValiantArcher
(@valiantarcher)
BC Head and G&B Mod Moderator

1. Oh, yes, I think there was definitely things Thorin and Bard could've done differently. Thorin really shouldn't have started off with an accusatory tone, and Bard could've couched his requests in a different manner. By the end, though, they were definitely completely off with Bard demanding 1/12th (more than one share that each member of the company was promised) and Thorin shooting the messenger in return. :P

2. I'm not really sure why the ravens and dwarves had such good connections---could it have been because they were both the only ones to really live in the mountains and they both could be proud? If they were magpies, I could say it was because they both loved shiny stuff, but that might just cause more contention. :P
I think Thorin's innate stubborness and his frustration at not finding the Arkenstone contributed a fair amount to his not taking Roac's advice. However, I could see the dragon curse also affecting things.

3. He may've been more willing. Having the Elvenking there immediately put Thorin in an "us vs. them" mindset. However, as long as he was sure that someone was out to steal gold from them, there probably wasn't much that would've convinced Thorin to really listen to Bard's points. :(
Also, I really like Mel's and Twig's' points. ;))

Death is swallowed up in victory.

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Posted : March 24, 2013 11:50 am
Ithilwen
(@ithilwen)
NarniaWeb Zealot

1. What do you think of the way Thorin and Bard conducted themselves in their negotiations? Are there things they should have done or said differently?

I definitely think Thorin should have realized that the town deserved some portion of the treasure, since a lot of it was stolen from them by the dragon and was technically theirs in the first place.

Do you think the dragon spell might account for Thorin not taking Roac's advice?

I think Thorin's pride, mixed with seeing the treasure once more, made him more hard-headed in all respects.

3. Do you think Thorin would have listened to Bard if the Elvenking had not been present? What did the elves presence change about the dwarf/man relationship?

I definitely think he would have been more willing to listen. But in the end, his pride and greed would still have gotten the best of him, most likely.

~Riella =:)

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Posted : July 1, 2013 5:27 pm
Dinode
(@dinode)
NarniaWeb Guru

1. What do you think of the way Thorin and Bard conducted themselves in their negotiations? Are there things they should have done or said differently?
I personally think Thorin was being way too greedy. The only thing I can think of for Bard to do differently would have been to ask the elves to go help the town while they finish up and, more importantly, ask for their 12th share in installments. Seriously, even if they had wanted to give away that much treasure, did they really think they could move that much in so short a time?
2. Why do you think the ravens had such good connections with the dwarves? Do you think the dragon spell might account for Thorin not taking Roac's advice?
Thorin is King Under the Mountain, and as inhabitants of The Lonely Mountain that makes them under his jurisdiction as much as the dwarves. Even some of the dwarves disliked the turn of events yet they still obeyed.
3. Do you think Thorin would have listened to Bard if the Elvenking had not been present? What did the elves presence change about the dwarf/man relationship?
Maybe, but if the elves had left then the Battle of Five Armies would have gone a little differently, wouldn't it? ;)

Seeking comic book artist, PM for details.

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Posted : July 1, 2013 5:40 pm
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

1. What do you think of the way Thorin and Bard conducted themselves in their negotiations? Are there things they should have done or said differently?

I think they were both too relentless. Thorin the most, he has been hit by the dragon sickness / greed and isn't willing to listen to reason - but even Bard might have been a little less stiff-necked.

2. Why do you think the ravens had such good connections with the dwarves? Do you think the dragon spell might account for Thorin not taking Roac's advice?

Ravens live long, so their families would have been connected from a long time back - and with the ability to speak together, it makes their connection easier to maintain. Yes, I think the dragon spell was working strongly on Thorin by now.

3. Do you think Thorin would have listened to Bard if the Elvenking had not been present? What did the elves presence change about the dwarf/man relationship?

The presence of the Elvenking reminded Thorin of all he had "suffered" as prisoner in the King's prison (I think his pride had suffered the most), and this put him in an even worse mood than he might have been in otherwise. Thus some of his attitude to the Elves was attached to the man as well, since the man was allied to the Elves.


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

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Posted : July 31, 2013 5:48 pm
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