Fencer makes a number of excellent points. One I like is "show, don't tell." It tends to engage the reader more quickly deeply than telling.

It's rather ironic this question popped up now. Occasionally I still play around with my 2009 NaNo novel, and this weekend is one of those times. A couple of the early chapters have extensive chunks of background story that are presented with little preamble or panache (after all, one of the goals of NaNo is to just "do it" - get it written down. It can always be edited and improved later). So once I get around to editing that part of the story, I'll have to give more serious thought as to how I really want to frame that background discourse so it's more interesting.

Background and backstory is always a challenging topic. You definately don't want to say everything at once, unless you have good reason. That's one of the troubles Prince Capsian has. One third of the book is an extended flashback and it simply doesn't work as well. But for that particular example, splitting it up would be very confusing as well. One moment where flashback's and backstory came in handy was in FOTR, when Gandalf explains to Frodo about Sauron and later when he explains his escape and capture to the Council of Elrond.

Going back to my experience, I have one character that you don't know much about. He acts like he doesn't want his past revealed too much, so he tells different people different parts. At the end, you finally start to put it all together but you don't know whether he is a good guy or bad guy until the every end, and even then you could still be left with questions (which is what I want). But I used the current situation in the novel to bring out another aspect to this character's past, so you get bits and pieces here and there. This is good for character development, but for plot backstory, you would need a different approach.

The real question of plot backstory is what type of backstory is it. If it is a historical event that pertains to the culture of the story, use a museum or legend to describe the event. When I attempted Nano in 08 (I stopped due to Writer's Burn-out having worked on my novel right before it), I used a three page opening scene as a prologue to a historical event. But when I began the actual story, I cut from the prologue to the main story through the mouth of a historian. This way, the prologue (in this case) could be accurate or not to the actual events. The real question is how much do you want to reveal at what point in the story. Sometimes you might not want your reader to know certain parts of the backstory because they will play a role later on.

But that comes in the editing phase. For first drafts, I suggest putting the entire backstory into its own chapter (prologue or elsewhere) so you can have a reference to what you have. It's not easy to make up a backstory as you go (possible but hard). You will find yourself having to go back through your MS and tweak little things to make the current plot fit with the backstory or visa versa.

Hopefully that will get you thinking.

Wowie!!!!!!! That's the only thing I can say when I read the Writer's thread Thanks so much, everyone, for your advice and tips!
sweeetlilgurlie wrote

What I suggest is to either have a very abbreviated prologue with a minimal amount of information, or to have the Prince/Daughter of the bad guy recall what happened, or else to have them discover what happened by means of an old journal or old worker--something like that.

Yes, I decided that would be the best thing to do. I thought I could start with a very short, cryptic prologue, then begin the first chapter 20 years later with the Prince, give some description, and then move on to the Northern Woods where the Bad Guy has gathered an army to ambush the castle and take over the kingdom, and then move on from there. I thought I could disperse the history through dialogue, say, between the King and the Prince, the Bady Guy and the Daughter, soldiers on opposing sides, etc.
Fire Fairy wrote

When it comes to prologues, I've always preferred to do something that is short and engaging but that doesn't reveal too much. A good prologue leaves your reader asking questions. If you write a prologue that doesn't leave the reader asking questions, then you've included way too much info and should probably spread it out throughout the actual story. Also, if the prologue ends up having its own plot that can stand alone, it should probably be cut down and/or cut out.

I definately agree with that! That's a very good point!
FencerforJesus wrote

What kind of introduction you have can also depend on the type of story you are trying to tell. Is your story action based? Romance based (between the Prince and the daughter)? The important thing to know is that when you are writing a story, the opening page needs to tell everything about the general story line, the type of story the reader is going to encounter, and the like. Obviously there are exceptions to every case, but this is a good guideline.

That's very good insight. I hadn't really thought of it that way before.
Well, I would not want to think of my story as romance-based, because I generally dislike stories that revolve around romance. There is a romance between the Prince and the Daughter, but there are also a lot of battles...though not enough to make is compleltely action-based. I guess it would have to be a mix.

If you want an action theme, start with a battle scene that depicts the King and the Knight and thier character. If you want a romantic theme, open up with the King, the Queen and/or the baby Prince. Play with the theme of the story and that should help you decide your approach to the opening scene.

I thought I would start with a short prologue where the Bad Guy is being released from prison and banished from the country--very cryptic and without any names. Then the chapter begins with the Prince on a hunt, in which I could describe his character, but which ultimately leads to the forest, where the Bad Guy has returned after 20 years with his army. I'm not sure if this is a very good beginning, but it's the best I could come up with.

Being a fencer, I know the mindset of going into a battle, so I know how to describe fighting styles, weapons, and such in a way to reveal characteristics about characters. I don't tell you that one character is timid in battle or absolutely fearless. I show it. The timid character tries to avoid the conflict and fight as little as possible, while the fearless one goes into the fray against the fiercest of foes without a second thought about consequences. And then there are the confident traits, arrogant traits, lazy traits, etc, all of which I know how to depict in battle.

Another very good point! I'm not very good at 'showing not telling' but it's something I working on, and I hope to improve on with this story.

For first drafts, I suggest putting the entire backstory into its own chapter (prologue or elsewhere) so you can have a reference to what you have. It's not easy to make up a backstory as you go (possible but hard). You will find yourself having to go back through your MS and tweak little things to make the current plot fit with the backstory or visa versa.

I've already done that, and it's a great help and refernce to writing. I actually wrote a very short synopsis of the whole story to help me sort out my thoughts before I actually started writing.
I wish I could comment and quote everything everybody wrote here, because everyone wrote something useful and helpful, but I'm afraid I don't have the time. Another huge thanks for all your advice!

The following poems have been circulating by email for a while, so they may be familiar. And while it's not about writing per se, it seems appropriate here since language and words form the foundation of our toolbox. So, enjoy:

The English Lesson

We'll begin with box, and the plural is boxes, But the plural of ox should be oxen, not oxes.
Then one fowl is goose, but two are called geese, Yet the plural of moose should never be meese.
You may find a lone mouse or a whole lot of mice, But the plural of house is houses, not hice.
If the plural of man is always called men, Why shouldn't the plural of pan be pen?
The cow in the plural may be cows or kine, But the plural of vow is vows, not vine.
And I speak of a foot, and you show me your feet, But I give a boot... would a pair be beet?
If one is a tooth, and a whole set is teeth, Why shouldn't the plural of booth be beeth?
If the singular is this, and the plural is these, Why shouldn't the plural of kiss be kese?
Then one may be that, and three be those, Yet the plural of hat would never be hose.
We speak of a brother, and also of brethren, But though we say mother, we never say methren.
The masculine pronouns are he, his and him, But imagine the feminine she, shis, and shim.
So our English, I think you will agree, Is the trickiest language you ever did see.

I take it you already know, of tough, and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you, on hiccough, through, slough and though.
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps, To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word, That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead; it's said like bed, not bead! For goodness sake, don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat, (They rhyme with suite and straight and debt)
A moth is not a moth in mother, Nor both in bother, broth in brother.
And here is not a match for there, Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose – Just look them up – and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward, And font and front and word and sword.
And do and go, then thwart and cart. Come, come, I've hardly made a start.
A dreadful language: Why, man alive, I'd learned to talk when I was five.
And yet to write it, the more I sigh, I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

Let's face it - English is a crazy language.

There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
English muffins weren't invented in England. We take English for granted, but if we explore its paradoxes,
we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square, and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.

And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham?
Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend.
If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?
Sometimes I think all the folks who grew up speaking English should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane.

In what other language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? We ship by truck but send cargo by ship.
We have noses that run and feet that smell. We park in a driveway and drive in a parkway.
And how can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites?

You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can burn up as it burns down,
in which you fill in a form by filling it out, and in which an alarm goes off by going on.

And, in closing, if Father is Pop, how come Mother's not Mop?

stargazer, that is absolutely hilarious!!! Yet, at the same time, it's so true! I love English, even if it is very puzzling. But you've got to admit, it makes it all the more fun for us poets and writers!!!

This is one of the reasons I am SO GLAD that I did not have to learn English as a second language.

In just 36 hours I will be en route to Oklahoma City for the American Christian Writer's Conference. I really have no idea what to expect there. I just know this is the next thing God has told me to do in regards to my novel. I might get a contract offer, I might get a direction to the next step, or I might even make a contact that I need later in life that has absolutely nothing to do with writing. I will keep my eyes open the whole weekend and I am praying that God puts me together with the right people. I'll report on what happens when I return Sunday afternoon.

Good Luck, Fencer! I've never been to a Writer's Conference, but April 1st I'll be going to the National Undergraduate Literature Conference in Ogden, Utah, to present my short story, so I'm really excited!

I am back from my American Christian Writer's Conference. I will say that was the best experience I could have had as a writer. I learned so much about the industry, how to write, and got to meet very interesting people while at it. The age group was very interesting. I was one of four out of 25 that were age 30 and younger. The rest were 50 and over. Here was the format of the conference. Friday was a four-part series in either fiction or non-fiction (I did the fiction). After the series, the instructors held 15-minute consultations. After dinner, one instructor did a rendition of David and Goliath in Writer's Version and talked about how to 'slay the giants' in our careers. Saturday, we had two seminars to chooses from: ranging from historical fiction/non-fiction, editors/agents, self-publishing, and humor. Then we had a wrap up, Q/A, and we went home. Now here is what I picked up.

The fiction part was really cool. There wasn't anything I hadn't heard before, but you won't get it all in such a condensed and well done format. We discussed narrative/description/action, characters, character arcs, dialogue, descriptions, action, plot, story telling, point of view, and more. As it's been mentioned before, show don't tell. Truth is, you can't always do that. You need to bridge some gaps with telling. This is narrative. If you can see it in a camera, show it. If not, tell it. Description and depth of description is really up to the author. You need to give enough details however to let the reader imagine what you want them to imaging.
It's tricky to describe characters and develop them. A very common beginning writer's tendency is to list physical descriptions, height, weight, build, hair, eyes, etc. And we often do a paragraph on that. A more experience writer will find a way to put those descriptions through a variety of means. Show little bits here and there, in dialogue, action, and other tactics. As for arcs, every line, every action a character takes needs at least one purpose, preferably more. At the very least, it needs to advance the plot. But it also needs to reveal another piece of info of the character, show development in the character, etc.
Dialogue is also tricky. Many people try to make dialogue realistic, but its actually not suppossed to be. For example, in real life, talk face to face, you almost never use the other person's name. But in writing dialogue, you need to put a name down in almost every line. This is so you as the author and readers can easily keep track of who is speaking to whom. Also, do not be afraid of the overuse of 'said'. 'Said' is different than other dialogue tags. It is like punctuation and actually flows smoother than most other tags. Use alternatives, like asked, suggested, interrupted, and replied sparingly and only for intended purposes.
Point of view gave me a new perspective on it. Most people use either 1st person or 3rd person limited (as oppossed to 3rd person omniscient). It is fully legal and fine to shift perspectives from one character to another, but always use some kind of visible break, be it a double space, a line, a sets of dots, or a set of ~'s. It doesn't require a full page break as though starting a new chapter. But the critcial thing here is that once you start a scene in one character's POV, you must stay in that character's POV without some kind of clear, visible break. Also, if that character can't see it, your reader can't see it either, at least while in that character's POV.
At least for now, I'll let up with story telling. If you are going to write fiction, story telling must be your #1 priority. My novel has a heavy Christian spritiual warfare theme, but if I put that above story telling, I lose the art of story telling and it is no longer fiction. Keep that in mind when you write fiction. Don't worry about getting your theme in there. If you are a Christian and a fiction writer, your faith will find itself in your story in some way, shape or form. But as a writer, your focus should be on your story and the lessons you want to teach through the written word will come clear.

I'll say more later, but I am going to conclude with what happened during my 15-minute consultation with the instructor who taught on fiction. It turns out she is one of the most respected authors in the Christian fiction market. So she was the perfect person to talk with. Due to time, she was only able to read about a page and a half of my sample chapters, but she was very impressed with my writing style. Most publishers and editors can tell if a writer has good style simply by the first few pages. I still had a couple things that I simply didn't catch, even after several runs through it, but they were minor details that a profesional editor will weed out. She believes I am at a point where a major publishing house would take a look at my novel, but I might have difficulty simply due to the genre. She even suggested a new publisher that is looking for new stuff: Marcher Lord Press. So I will check them out this week, perhaps tonight if I can stay awake (I've been up for about 35 hours at this time after a overnight layover in Dallas). I don't know what this is going to mean yet, but I have learned so much about this industry and the organizers of the event were kind enough to donate to me a 2009 edition of the Christian Wrtiter's Market Guide. I know some here have recommended it, but to be honest until now I didn't know enough about the industry to know how to read it and understand how to use it. Now I know a lot more, so I will have a lot more options to explore should Marcher Lord Press not be able to help me. I am really excited about seeing what's going to happen.

I'll say more about the conference later. But I strongly recommend anyone with a desire to write to attend a Writer's Conference. You learn so much more, so much faster than you do at a college course. You learn so much about the industry, can get a huge bunch of resources on writing, and you get to network with other writers, published authors, and possibly even editors and agents if they are there. It was so worth it for me and I am going to be looking for another one to attend either in the summer or when my next window is.

Thanks for that update, Fencer. Very nice summary of useful information.

Ironically perhaps, some of it dovetails nicely with tips I found this afternoon while browsing links available on the Script Frenzy site (spring's parallel to NaNoWriMo):

Dialogue: Finding the right place between stiff, artificial speaking (unless intentional, like in a medieval story) and ordinary speech that's really boring (Hi, how are you? I'm fine etc).

Overuse of names in dialogue. As Fencer's conference noted we don't use names a lot in regular conversation; if I'm talking to Abby she knows it and I don't have to name her. It's tougher while writing, but one tip I picked up was to make your characters unique enough that differences in their speech can help you eliminate a few of those names.

The article I read encouraged elimination of some of the "he said," "she said" type tags in the same way.

Story first! I'm glad you mentioned this one, Fencer! Tell a good story first and your perspective/worldview/etc will show through. Few people liked to be banged on the head with obvious morals; be subtle and let us figure it out - we'll feel smart that way.

There were also some interesting notes on how to introduce conflict, character flaws, and character growth into our writing. While the focus of the articles linked there tends to be on scripts, much of it applies to the prose stories that many of us here write as well.

I had a look at the Marcher Lord Press website, Fencer - it looks like it could be right up your street in terms of the type of books they're publishing. I look forward to hearing what you think about them.

It sounds like you had a great time at the conference! Well done on getting the Writer's Market book. I have found guides like that to be so, so useful. At first they were overwhelming, but now I understand how they work. What I love is that I can dip in and out of them; I don't need to read the whole thing.

Last year I toyed with the idea of doing Script Frenzy but I decided I was too busy. This year I have more time, but I don't want another unedited work on my laptop ... I am going to spend April rewriting!

The Princess of Nowhere is struggling on valiantly. My sister read this draft over, and a friend read it for the first time. Their comments have been really helpful and I've had some good ideas. There are still lots of things in the book which don't seem to tie together properly, or which aren't foreshadowed well enough.

I'm almost finished the process of figuring out what I need to edit, and so soon (hopefully) I'll actually be cutting away and writing in some new scenes! I can't wait.

A final note on the "Story First" thing: my friend (the one who just read my book) mentioned liking all these things that were subtle and hidden in my story. Some of them were on purpose but mainly they were things that had just "come out" naturally. Conversely, in my first draft, no-one got any of these blatant things I was trying to write and so I made it more and more obvious. It was horrific!

Actually, I sent a little query e-mail about Marcher Lord Press' system last night and lo and behold, got a reply this morning. There is one big issue with MLP right now and that is time. It is run by one guy and he is a year behind due to his massive load of submissions. But when I mentioned the recommendation from the instructor I had at the conference, he said, "it means a lot to me". I'm not entirely sure if that refers to his relation to the instructor or that for me having this contact is a big bonus to get the attention I would need, but it means something.

The other issue about MLP is that they only market on-line in a Print-on-Demand service. That is, when some orders a novel, they print it out and ship it right away. So that being said, selling some 300 copies could be a MLP 'best-seller'. Obviously, I would like to reach a wider audience than a mere 300 (I could do that on my own just with the friends and family I have). But I did see something that if I wanted bookstores to carry it, I would have to do the push myself. So that being said, I likely could only do that via local bookstores, but it would be a lot of work.

So what I think I am going to do is get back with the instructors I had, tell them what I learned about MLP and just get a little feedback. MLP did say they would likely edit quicker than getting through backlog of submissions and that is one thing I really do need: a professional edit of my novel before it can go out. So I will want to explore those options as well. I will also look at the Writer's Guide and see what else is out there. Now that I know how the system works much better, I will be able to make sense out of the Guide and know how to read it.

One of the other things that we talked about on the side during one break, was how the instructor I worked with had a moment with an editor about something that wasn't realistic. She had to fight for it, because she talked with people in the profession of a character and it is something that charactere would say without getting vulgar. I mentioned how I have a couple scenes (AJ, you know what I am talking about) that are pretty unrealistic, but if an editor were to complain about it, he/she would have a hard time when I tell them it actually happened to me. But my argument would be that I wanted it to seem unrealistic (because when I experienced it, that's what I felt). So hearing the stories about her encounters with editors and agents have really helped me understand thier POV, so I am preparing myself for these types of conversations when I go through it myself.

It's really going to be interesting to see what happens. I really do want to be patient for God's timing, but at the same time, I want to be persistant (like the widow pleading to the judge in one of Jesus' parables). I'm very excited about these contacts, and simply to hear from a well established and respected author that my work is right there, worthy of a big publisher to consider me, that means a lot. This has been an incredible journey and now I need to hear from God and find out whether I should go through this door with Marcher Lord Press or find another.

For the record, I do plan on participating in Script Frenzy this year. However, for various reasons, I do not wish to disclose anything about the nature or content of this script on the public forums.

That said, if you're interested and want to send me a PM about it, I may tell you about it and perhaps even let you see the script itself. Maybe. If I don't respond, though, that probably means I'd rather not let you in on it. Please don't be offended; I have my reasons.

(Psst, mods: check the MLTS. )

Fencer, I didn't realise that the were only on-line. That's a shame! I think there are some really good books that are printed like that, and some good companies that do so, but I personally would like to see my book in a bookshop. That's the thing I love so much about books, and that, to me, is the summit of writerly ambition!

I think even when books are published for stores, writers still have to do a lot of legwork. I guess one of the things you really need to consider is how much of this you want to do. Going with someplace like MLP may mean a lot of work, and perhaps at a lot of personal expense. I guess to sell the book, you'd have to order your own copies. Then it becomes kind of like some of the self-publishing companies you've looked at.

How are you finding the Writer's Market book?

stardf: am checking.

The thing about MLP is that they target a very specific nitch within the Christian fiction community, one that I've heard is a hard sell to bigger publishers. The reason why is that the vast majority of Christian fiction tends to be aimed for women and that kind of thing (I need to look that up again for specifics). So those who are looking for my type of book will look under MLP and would have a hard time finding the one or two copies that might be found in a bookstore. Just by personal experience, I would have a hard time finding Frank Peretti's "This Present Darkness" at Barnes and Noble unless I knew what I was looking for. Even at Christian book stores, the list of the speculative Christian fiction novels (suspense, action, spiritual warfare, thrillers) is quite small.

But something MLP does have is basic extention contracts to bigger publishers if a particular novel becomes a hit. MLP does consider 300 sold to be a good selling novel, but I also found out this week that the average book in America only sells 500. Just thinking about my personal contacts, it would not be unreasonable to sell 500 copies. With spending 20 years involved in missions, through my getting out with fencing, lots of contacts in Colorado as well as El Paso, 500 is plausible. People are tellling me left and right that they want to buy my novel when it comes out. And that doesn't include what could happen with word of mouth. Being honest, selling 1,000 copies would be a dream hit. I am not expecting to hit the millions that Stephanie Meyers or Christopher Paloni has.

I'll be honest in that I haven't gotten a chance to really get into the Christian Writer's Market Guide. As soon as I got back from the conference, school started again, so I haven't been able to pursue this to the extent that I would like. I'm waiting for a reply from MLP after I asked a couple questions regarding their system (making sure I understand it) and then I plan to submit my query in spite of the year long backlog of submissions. Until I graduate, I can't expect to be able to work much on my writing anyway except during Summer and Winter breaks so the only loss I have in waiting that long is my collegiate contacts. It might take me that long to get with someone else so that year-long wait for MLP is not an issue.

I did ask MLP about how to market beyond thier on-line system and am waiting for that response. I don't have a problem with going to the local Christian book stores to see if they would carry a local author. I do know that MLP is not one of those scams out there. I highly doubt the instructor I spoke with would tell me not to go with a vanity publisher and point me towards a not-so-legit publisher. This is an open door for me right and I will take it until God shuts it. My only problem is that being so close, I want it done now, but I am really trying to be patient for God's timing. But at the way it is looking, I could have my sequel just as ready to go, which could really boost my chances at acceptance. We will see what happens.

*silently strolls in*

After taking a lengthy break from writing, Saturday I begun editing one of the longer short stories I had written for my NaNo novel to making it a larger novel. The break I took helped me think about things I absolutely needed, and other bits I could cut off the story. It's only about 17 pages (with the margins stretched as far as possible, though) but due to many plot holes and character development I had left, I think it'll work to make it at least ten times longer than it is now. (Additionally, so it doesn't turn out really bad, I might add different essential things to the plot) So that's getting really exciting, and I'm thrilled I don't have to push myself to go through the editing process! (For many reasons and so I can have it handy at any moment, I'm handwriting the whole thing over again instead of typing it... Somehow I prefer that over typing it, because typing makes me blank out and write cheesy dialogue. )

As for publishing and all that, (although at the rate I'm editing, clearing out, and improving my book, that's going to be many years down the line) but there's a writing/acting program I attend that's fairly popular, and through them I think I might have some stories/poems informaly published on their things which could lead to something bigger. *crosses fingers* ...

Anyways, just thought I'd ramble on that in the approprate thread!