I just reserved FotR and RotK, Laura E. A. I'm hoping to pick up TT at the library today, since it's on the shelf there.

I've heard a bit of BBC's FotR, and I wasn't impressed. But a good Faramir is something to look forward to, as is a good Sam.

Doesn't the book have a part where Aragorn does look into the Palantir and sees something when Sauron was trying discourage him? If not Aragorn, then I thought someone did. Anyway, Sauron tried to show that Arwen was dying and that the future was hopeless. Again, if it wasn't Aragorn, then Sauron showed them something that was dear to them that was dead or in danger, kinda like Sam looking into Galadriel's Mirror and seeing Hobbiton.

My memory isn't very good these days, since I've been filling it to the brim with homework and school stuff.

I don't remember exactly either, so i am going to look at the book when i get home and see what it says, then get back to this. I vaguely remember something of the sort though.

Though that makes sense more than my theory.

I don't remember exactly either, so i am going to look at the book when i get home and see what it says, then get back to this. I vaguely remember something of the sort though.

Though that makes sense more than my theory.

I look forward to it!
Unfortunately, my schoolwork is rising up and choking me, so I may not have as much time to get on here.

Hah, I thought that bit with Aragorn and Sauron in the palantir was in the book too . My last reading was about 4 years ago though. So perhaps I am mixing up the movie version of the scene with the book version. I was looking for my copy of LotR to find the scene and read it, but I seem to have misplaced it. hopefully someone will find the scene and quote it soon so we can figure out if we are just bamboozled or not .

GB

I wonder if we're thinking of Sauron discouraging Denethor in the book with visions of Mordor's massed armies, which lead to his hopeless madness? Certainly Sauron showed Aragorn a
"grave peril coming unlooked-for upon Gondor from the South" ("The Passing of the Grey Company" chapter), but rather than discouraging Aragorn, it motivated him to seek the Paths of the Dead, which ultimately helped save Minas Tirith from destruction. Anyway, it bothered me greatly how PJ presented this in the movie: for there Sauron seemed to master Aragorn via the Palantir (with the vision of Arwen supposedly dying), rather than the other way around. Grrrr! That R.E.A.L.L.Y. bothered me, for once again, it lessens kingly Aragorn as a character.

I have more to respond to here, but will be back later, or I might edit this post yet.

EDIT:

That's what i would be afraid of too. I would be afraid that they would make the Barrow Downs some horrific thing and then kinda ruin it all. :/ Obviously it is a pretty scary thing, imagine being Frodo!

Actually, Eru, I wasn't thinking of this in a negative sense. I'm thinking PJ would handle it well, because the arm crawling around the corner was extremely bizarre and ... creepy. I wouldn't want it to turn into a full-blown horror scene, but it certainly would border on very scar, which would fit well with Tolkien's text.

Mara, I know exactly what you mean about the movie making Arwen's fate as tied to the Ring. When we first saw that (and we still do this) we look at each other aghast "Huh, what, that's ridiculous" we say. Doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. *checks Appendix A, section V to see if JRR hints at this at all* Hmm, in my brief look I don't see any indication that Arwen faded in any way as Sauron's power grew. I haven't thoroughly investigated, so if anyone finds info to the contrary, please let us know. I need to do a thorough re-read of this section.

We might be having a LOTR marathon with some friends soon. Should be fun.

*would love to join you* Do enjoy, Amy! *chuckles at your "Swine-flu Sauron" phrase*

Yes, Eru, some do argue that book Aragorn is too full of pride, but I disagree. To me, he knows his destiny and what is his calling and he rises to this. He reminds me a lot of a Christ-figure as he willingly and honourably takes on the mantle for which he has been chosen, revealing himself as a strong Lord in choice moments.

He didn't just make stuff up out of whole-cloth and throw it in the films to annoy fans of the books.

Sometimes I wonder about that ...*coughthissituationandFaramir'scharacterchangeandFrodosendingSamawayGAGcough*

Glad you're enjoying your Tolkien reads, Aslans_Jewel. Was it you who mentioned The Children of Húrin? I highly recommend it. Mind you, the tale of Húrin and Túrin is one of my top favourites in The Sil.

Personally, I really like the BBC radio drama of The LotR, although I did find Ian Holm as Bilbo, wonderful though he was for most of the story, rather either monotone or extreme in a few sections. And I do know what you mean, Laura E.A., about the many of the orcs sounding too human. They could have had gruffer voices, to be sure. In fact, I found that with their British accents, the tone of their voice even sounded downright nice at times. But overall I thought it to be very well done. It surely stuck close to the book, and that means the most to me. I haven't heard "Mind's Eye" at all, but would like to after the recommendations here.

And a very Happy Birthday yesterday to two dear hobbits. Is anyone starting their annual read on this occasion? I just recently completed another re-read, so will wait for a bit (but not too long ) to begin again.

EDIT #2: Does anyone else dislike the drinking game in The RotK EE? I always fast forward that part. It's just so ... silly! And to me, non-Tolkien-ish.

Im currently reading tTT and the Aragorn and Arwen part of Appendix A in my book, good story, Im planing on reading the rest of the appendices soon.

And Jo, I just watched the drinking game on youtube, Tolkien did like "A pint of beer" but the drinking game doesnt fit in with the movie, its just kind of...blech, its not part of Legolas's part, it doesnt work for him

I thought it was rather funny... lol. In general, no, it didn't fit, because of the timing. Maybe if you had a 4th movie about everyone doing they're own thing after WotR then ya. A scene just by itself, ya i thought it was funny and enjoyed it.

Sorry I fell out of the conversation there...

GB, you didn't address my points about the implausibility of Swine Flu Sauron (and how this greatly weakens Arwen's character)

An Idea, though. Perhaps the whole "dying" thing had to do with her grief and worry over Aragorn. Plausible. Elves to dwindle under grief.

This is probably the best idea I've heard yet. But it does kind of make Arwen a wimp. Aragorn wasn't dead! But she mourned him like he was until she made herself sick with grief? I just don't see it. Arwen was made of sterner stuff than that.

And GB, I do see the reasons why Jackson made *some* of his changes. I just don't think all of his reasons are particularly good or valid. Give audiences some credit; we can figure things out without being force-fed the characters' motivations.

Jo-Anna, that is a fantastic insight about how Aragorn's encounter with Sauron via the Palantír weakens him as a character. He's motivated by fear . Sauron masters him rather than the other way around.

Oh, and how about the Witch-King mastering Gandalf and breaking his staff??? Talk about weakening the heroes for no reason!

Anyhow... *calms down*

I am listening to Rob Inglis' reading of FOTR and am enjoying it very much . And our LOTR movie marathon is scheduled for this weekend! So when I am not around the forum much, you'll know why

well they aint perfect...oh wait, they're fictional. I forgot. (well i had to try some defense, I'm their attorney. )

I have to remind myself that they aren't real.

On a more serious note, I agree, some of the changes PJ made I really thought were for the better. Others, I thought the book version was better. Alot has to do with personal preference, but I think we all generally agree that PJ did quite a good job. Hey, it coulda been worse.

Question: Did anyone here go to that LOTR Musuem Exhibit there a few years back? If so, what did ya think?

Whew *wipes the sweat from her brow*, I lost the first part of my post and found it again, thanks to Lazarus! But with the length of this, maybe y'all are not glad I found it again. Okay, here goes ...

I thought the drinking scene was somewhat laughable on its own too, but not in Tolkien's Middle-earth. And yes, Tolkien certainly enjoyed his pints, but, from all I've read, in relative moderation.

Aslans_Jewel, the appendices to The LotR are fascinating! Another excellent resource, which we have alluded to on this thread, is the volume of Tolkien's letters (edited by Humphrey Carpenter). Some of the them are tricky to slog through, but the majority are them are very readable and so informative, plus his wonderful sense of humour comes out from time-to-time. It's fun to see him progress through the stages and years of writing The LotR, and as he discusses the chapters he has read to the Inklings and is sending to his son, Christopher (who was away in South Africa in the Royal Air Force).

Tolkien's extensive way of writing comes through a number of times. One example (from Letter #62):
"I read my second chapter, Passage of the Dead Marshes, to Lewis and Williams on Wed. morning. It was approved. I have now nearly done a third: Gates of the Land of Shadow. But this story takes me in charge, and I have already taken three chapters over what was meant to be one! And I have neglected too many things to do it. I am just enmeshed in it now ... "
Typical Tolkien!

Also, I love how Lewis was "affected to tears" (Letter #72) when he read the last two chapters of The Two Towers, "Shelob's Lair" and "The Choices of Master Samwise".

As many authors seem to find, characters seemingly come in to their stories on their own. (Letter #66 ):
"A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, tough I like him, but there he came waling into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir—and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan ... but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices—where already some fascinating material on the hobbit Tobacco industry and the Languages of the West have gone."
Love it!

And I gather many of you have heard that Elwin Ransom of Lewis' Space Trilogy is meant to be somewhat of a portrait of JRRT (Letter #77), just as Tolkien is said to have represented Lewis (particularly his booming voice) in Treebeard.

There are countless treasures in Letters and I encourage every Tolkien fan to nab a copy.

I agree that Arwen was made of sterner stuff than certain scenes in the movies portrayed.

Nellie/Kimberly and I can't stand the EE Palantir scene. It's so opposite from the book! Listen to Aragorn speaking of showing himself to Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc in the chapter "The Passing of the Grey Company:
"It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure."
In the movie, Aragorn, the foretold King of Gondor(!!), is the one showing fear. This should not be! In the book, Sauron is the one whom Aragorn said was not above doubt and fear once he saw the sword of Elendil re-forged and the heir of Isildur wielding it!

Oh, and how about the Witch-King mastering Gandalf and breaking his staff??? Talk about weakening the heroes for no reason!

I cannot abide that part! It's so not Tolkien's Gandalf! That scene should be illegal! *sits down beside distraught Amy and weeps afresh*

Are you doing the marathon over a couple of days, Amy, or all in one day? *envies ww and itches to get a marathon going here*

Eru, Toronto had both The FotR and the TTT exhibits, although we only made it to the latter, and the main reason for that is I was so hesitant to go and see The FotR when it first came out (because of my apprehension that the book would be spoiled) that I avoided anything related to the film for a time. Silly me. TTT exhibit was excellent! Orthanc, in particular, stands out. Sadly the full exhibit hasn't made it to Toronto ... yet. But starkat wrote an excellent article about it, as she had the privilege of attending in Houston. (Her article is going to be published in the upcoming third issue of Silver Leaves. )

I was listening to one of Lewis' BBC talks (not sure if that's really his voice or not, and I gulped at the spelling of "inspiration" ), which then brought me to some great Tolkien videos: reciting the first verse of "The Road Goes Ever On and On" and the famous bit about the beginnings of The Hobbit.

And ... woohoo! I was finished typing this up when I hear the doorbell. My eagerly anticipated Argonath poster has arrived.

And only 22 more sleeps before we go to Grand Rapids MI to see The FotR (my favourite of the 3 films) on the big screen again and hear the GR Symphony Orchestra perform the score live. Ahh, glory and bliss! The larger of the events is being held in NYC the weekend before, but that's a tad far for us to go, especially on Canadian Thanksgiving weekend when we'd like to be home. I'm just very thankful it's coming to Grand Rapids as well, even though there won't be all the panels and discussions and such (which I'd dearly love to be a part of, ah well). We saw The LotR symphony in Toronto—twice, a day apart—a few years back and it was beyond beautiful!

An update on the long-awaited Doug Adams' book on the music of The Lord of the Rings is here. See his September 22 entry. Adams, a musician himself, is the fortunate and very hard-working soul who shadowed Howard Shore around during the composing, orchestrating, and conducting of the score, and will be doing the same with The Hobbits film. If you have the Complete Recordings, he is the author of those wonderful liner notes.

Ach, sorry for another very lengthy post, but when it comes to Tolkien I can't seem to keep quiet.

...*coughthissituationandFaramir'scharacterchangeandFrodosendingSamawayGAGcough*

*isn't sure if she should give jo a hug, or go weep on her shoulder*

Alas, poor Faramir... I knew him well. But then they kept my favourite line and utterly changed its meaning. *decides to bawl*

I've been listening to the Mind's Eye version of TT, and remembered one of its (few) flaws. Though Theoden addresses Eowyn as his sister-daughter, the narrator refers to Eowyn and Eomer as Theoden's children. Didn't the animated movie have this problem as well? They're his niece and nephew. It's not that confusing... is it?

The Witch-King breaking Gandalf's staff is about the only change PJ made that actually makes me mad when I watch the movie. It totally degrades Gandalf and makes him a much less powerful figure.

I've been spending quite a bit of time in Angmar in LotRO. It's incredibly creepy and makes me look forward to seeing what they come up with for Mordor. They'll have a hard time outdoing Angmar.

Guess what? I'm back.

To the last sentence of your first paragraph, Booky? Amen!

Mel, both would do fine. *bawls alongside Mel*

No, I sure didn't think the fact that Éowyn and Éomer were Théoden's niece and nephew was too confusing ...

Something I wanted to add to my rambling post above: In Letters (#131) Tolkien wrote a magnificent summary of his imaginary world in response to a request from Milton Waldman at Harper Collins Publishing for a statement that The LotR and The Silmarillion were "interdependent and indivisible". It is about 18 pages (the full text is about 10,000 words!) and fairly small print in my paperback edition. It overviews the history of Middle-earth beginning with JRR's love of languages (although for a time he diverts in various and sundry subjects until he finally settles down ), which is the foundation on which he wrote his mythology. Wonderful stuff! His last line in the letter, though, is "I wonder if (even if legible) you will ever read this??" I sure did, in any case, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I wonder if he just wrote all this from his head, or if he had his notes strewn about him and referred to them as he composed this massive defense.

Reading the last pages of this thread make me relize more and more why the farthest I go with Tolkien world study(other than reading some major works such as The Sil,and "Children of Hurin"),is hobbits. We are simple,easily understood,yet are full of supprises. Elves and men confuse me. Though Faramir is pure awesome. Book or Movie. He's awesome.

What,you say? Like both movie AND book Faramir. It's possible. Sure,he's slightly less awesome in the movie,but they made him more human. But...I liked that he didn't want the Ring in the book. And I hate the "Frodo in Osgilith" part,skip it every time I see the movie. But all in all,he was well cast.

I haven’t had time lately to visit this thread. I have a lot of catching up to do.
Mar_girl – I am so glad you brought up the topic of changes in the movie. I have been wanting to discuss certain changes, but didn’t feel comfortable starting it. Maybe you could get your brother to watch the movie in segments. After all, that is how most people read the books.

Why make Arwen start dying (yikes, terrible grammar there, sorry) and have her fate tied to that of the Ring? That's just so stupid and doesn't make any sense. I wish they'd cut all that go-between with Arwen being all, "Daddy, I love him!" and her dad (forgot his name) being all "No, young lady, down that path is death for you!" etc. So lame and not in the book. Trust me, this is one series you don't have to add any drama to. And WHERE is my Eowyn/Faramir romance???? Geez, Hollywood, the one place you don't have to add any and you take it out!!

I completely agree. Elrond in the book (well the appendix) did not like the idea of her marrying Aragorn but agreed to it as long as Aragorn took his place as the king of Gondor. Speaking of Aragorn, I really did not like how in the movie he did not want his throne.
This quote combines two of wisewoman’s posts.

I have to agree that the way they had Arwen's fate tied to the fate of the Ring was pretty lame. "She will not long survive the evil that now floods from Mordor"??? Come on! I liked how they wove the romance throughout the films but that particular bit was really bad. Let's raise the stakes for Aragorn by putting Arwen's life on the line, because saving all of Middle-earth is not enough to give him a sense of urgency! *rolls eyes*
(Swine-Flu Sauron... hmm)

I disagree that Elrond and Aragorn needed more motivation to step up to the plate. Isn't saving the world enough?

And actually, in the book Aragorn was NOT reluctant to acknowledge and accept his lineage and responsibility. He claims it during the Council of Elrond with no angst whatsoever . The conflicted Aragorn is Jackson's creation, not Tolkien's.

I agree! The only time Aragorn showed reluctance was when he wasn’t sure what path to take to get the end result and that added plenty of doubts. The way they do it, it looks like Aragorn is only becoming the king / wielding the sword so that he can save Arwen. That makes him look shallow. (the flu part is funny)

Well WW, many people who hadn't read the books might have had difficulty accepting that a man who knew he was an heir to The Throne of Middle Earth was just happy being a Northern Ranger. And then all of a sudden at the Council of Elrond he's ready to be king with little rumination. What's his motivation? The rise of Sauron? Without any apparent internal conflict?

In the book, he was ready to be the king as soon as he knew he was king (Appendix). Well, maybe I should say he accepted his linage. I don’t remember precisely why, but after he found out he went out and served under the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor. Basically, somehow he figured out it wasn’t his time to lead yet. That’s what Aragorn is about; waiting for the right time. As for people not believing he is would be happy just being a Northern Ranger, I think there are plenty of fictional and nonfictional people who are content to be less than they are or could be. George Washington didn’t want to keep being president although he could have been elected again. Aragorn’s situation reminds me of Jesus. Why would the Son of God become human when he knew that he was divine? Although Jesus is has every right to demand that people worship him and to be powerful, he decided to become human and to serve others. He knew that things needed to happen at the right time. After his death and resurrection, he went to take his rightful place in heaven. When He comes again, He will show his power and right to rule.

Anyway, it bothered me greatly how PJ presented this in the movie: for there Sauron seemed to master Aragorn via the Palantir (with the vision of Arwen supposedly dying), rather than the other way around. Grrrr! That R.E.A.L.L.Y. bothered me, for once again, it lessens kingly Aragorn as a character.
…

He didn't just make stuff up out of whole-cloth and throw it in the films to annoy fans of the books.

Sometimes I wonder about that ...*coughthissituationandFaramir'scharacterchangeandFrodosendingSamawayGAGcough*
EDIT #2: Does anyone else dislike the drinking game in The RotK EE? I always fast forward that part. It's just so ... silly! And to me, non-Tolkien-ish.

My mind is drawing a complete blank about Aragorn looking in to the Palantir. Is that in both versions or just the extended? I’ve only seen the extend version once. I vaguely remember that scenes around the palantir were longer but I can’t remember what happened. I checked the DVDs out of the library and they skipped some. I love your response to GB. I want to add that even IF Frodo had sent Sam away, I don’t believe Sam would have actually gone. He would have followed at a safe distance. Throughout the book Sam is going place he isn’t supposed to to be with Frodo.
I didn’t like the drinking game either. Sometimes they make Gimli look too ridiculous. (Gimli never would have ridden on a horse by himself.)

Oh, and how about the Witch-King mastering Gandalf and breaking his staff??? Talk about weakening the heroes for no reason!

I agree again! Why do people think they have to weaken characters?!? I think they did the same type of thing with Theoden (deciding to go to Helm’s Deep inside of riding out to fight, not helping Gondor before being asked).

...*coughthissituationandFaramir'scharacterchangeandFrodosendingSamawayGAGcough*

*isn't sure if she should give jo a hug, or go weep on her shoulder*

Alas, poor Faramir... I knew him well. But then they kept my favourite line and utterly changed its meaning. *decides to bawl*

They ruined Faramir. They missed the point: he was not his brother! They turned him into a little Boromir that took Frodo instead of trying to take the ring. He did let Frodo go, but Boromir also realized that he had messed up. Not enough contrast. Which line was it, Meltintalle? I like a lot of Faramir’s lines and I vaguely remember one being in there that they changed the meaning but I can’t remember exactly what it was.
While I’m at it, I don’t like the scene where Aragorn is in the river. I liked some of the romance stuff, such as the part where he is talking about thinking that he had strayed into dream, but I don’t like the part where he says, “This is a dream.” I’m sure I could think of more to say but my post is long enough.
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I really missed the part where they have to set the Shire to rights again.
I must say though, that I do like the movies. I like TT better after I watched the extend version because they added in the trees helping at Helm’s Deep. I can’t believe they left that out of the theatrical version. The point was that they needed the help from the trees.