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Were the wizards well built and cool or not? Poll was created on May 08, 2021

  
  
  
Poll results: Were the wizards well built and cool or not?
Voter(s): 10
Poll was created on May 08, 2021
YES! They were epic!  -  votes: 5 / 50%
5
50%
Ehhh... They were ok, I guess...  -  votes: 5 / 50%
5
50%
NO! They were the most unoriginal and boring characters in Narnia!  -  votes: 0 / 0%
0
0%

The Wizards of Narnia  

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SonofStone
(@sonofstone)
NarniaWeb Regular

      When it comes to Narnia, we usually don't think of it as a world with wizards, it has them, but not as prominently as the Hobbit and LOTR (in which Gandalf is my favorite character). We only see these two men (The Hermit of the Southern March, and Coriarchin) in only two books, the HHB and VoftheDT. I love both of these character, especially the Hermit (who is one of my favorites), but what do y'all think of them, and do you think they are important or significant in their books? And do you think they will be hard or easy to adapt onto the big screen?

 

Child of the King: SonofStone

Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:13-14

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Posted : May 8, 2021 8:06 pm
Mickey liked
Mickey
(@mickey)
NarniaWeb Regular

You also forgot Ramandu 😀 

I found all three characters very intriuging, especially Coriakin; based on some details like the bearded mirror and the way he turned the Duffers into Monopods, I believe he has a quirky Dumbledore-escue sense of humor.

https://community.narniaweb.com/index.php/community/talk-about-narnia/a-theory-on-coriakin-and-the-dufflepuds/

This post was modified 1 month ago by Mickey
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Posted : May 11, 2021 3:26 pm
SonofStone
(@sonofstone)
NarniaWeb Regular

      I also forgot Dr. Cornelius, who, though not as obviously, is still one, and, as follows suit, he is my favorite character in the PC book. It is actually interesting to note that half of the wizards are fallen/resting stars, and there is a possibility that a third (The Hermit of the Southern March) could be, but that is just fan speculation.

 

Child of the King: SonofStone

Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:13-14

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Posted : May 11, 2021 7:14 pm
Mickey liked
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Regular

, I am a little impatient, waiting for the day when they can be
governed by wisdom instead of this rough magic." - Coriakin 

Coriakin is a wise Magician, and I like him for that. He is not one of my favorite characters in the Narnia Series but I was definitely influenced by him. I was always amazed by his magic house and the book that he got from Aslan. He is a very humble character and very patient indeed, especially with the Dufflepuds. He also connects with nature based on the clothes he wears in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Posted : May 16, 2021 5:31 pm
Cobalt Jade
(@cobalt-jade)
NarniaWeb Newbie

Wizards are neutral or good, but witches are bad. Hmmm....

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Posted : May 30, 2021 1:37 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Nut

@cobalt-jadeThere's actually one wizard, who hasn't been talked about yet in this thread, and who was bad. Uncle Andrew. But I guess he wasn't technically "in" Narnia, so people don't think of him that way.

P.S.

As long as I'm posting in this thread, I might as well mention that I don't think they're ever called wizards. They seem to prefer the term, magician.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by Col Klink

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : May 30, 2021 5:35 pm
Ryadian and Courtenay liked
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Nut

@mickey

I always loved the scene where the birds bring food to Ramandu.    And of course it takes a little off his age everyday they do it.  The BBC Narnia and Focus on the Family have this scene, but the movie omits it and the character of Ramandu never appears.  That was not a very good choice since it was one of the most beautiful scenes in the book.  Why do we see only his daughter?  Ramandu is a retired star with a lot of experience. I used the name Ramandu in the forums of the old Stone Table website, which is now gone from the Internet. I’m not sure if anyone from here ever visited it.  🙂

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Posted : May 31, 2021 11:17 am
Courtenay and Mickey liked
Mickey
(@mickey)
NarniaWeb Regular

@narnian78 Wow, I remember you! I've been on these forums under the name Dlimn.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110824205607/http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtopic.php?t=4012&sid=cc3e5b07e06590984a0fd8093d37bc27

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Posted : May 31, 2021 2:18 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Nut

@mickey

I’m kind of sad that The Stone Table is gone. I’m glad you were there too and thanks for the archived pages.  I miss posting there as Ramandu. It was a lot like Into the Wardrobe, where I was known as Larry W. (my real first name with the last name abbreviated)
They had forums similar to this one.  Well, we’re still having a lot of fun here.  🙂

..

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Posted : May 31, 2021 3:18 pm
Mickey liked
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Guru Friend of NarniaWeb
Posted by: @cobalt-jade

Wizards are neutral or good, but witches are bad. Hmmm....

... so therefore C.S. Lewis was sexist??? I've never got that impression from reading and re-reading the books over many years. But this discussion has just got me thinking about the whole topic of how Lewis portrays magic, and those who use it, in Narnia. I'm not sure if we can draw any definite conclusions from the relatively little info we've got, but here goes...

We do have two witches — Jadis/the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle/the Green Witch — who are two of the most sinister and dangerous "baddies" in the series. But they're the only two female villains in the entire series of seven books. And there's Uncle Andrew, who is far less of a magician than Jadis, but it's still obvious that he's completely self-serving and would no doubt use magic for wicked purposes if he had more of a grasp of it. I don't think he can be considered a "neutral" character at all — and there's definitely no suggestion here that women are inherently inclined to use magic in evil ways, while men aren't. Uncle Andrew doesn't have anything like Jadis's knowledge of magic, but it's clearly shown that both of them have the same kind of vanity and amorality, the same basic belief that they're superior to ordinary people and have the right to get what they want by whatever means necessary, regardless of anyone else.

Of the other characters who use magic (as @col-klink pointed out, Lewis uses the term "magician" rather than "wizard"), I get the impression they only do so on a rather small scale. The Hermit in The Horse and His Boy has a magic pool that allows him to see what is happening in other places, but he doesn't seem able (or willing) to use any kind of magic to influence those events. He can watch the battle between the Archenlanders and the Calormenes, but he doesn't even suggest he can do anything to help the good guys win.

Doctor Cornelius in Prince Caspian is self-described as "a very minor magician". He "can at least contrive a charmed sleep" to ensure Caspian's servants won't wake when he has to flee, and he (Cornelius) mentions that he used "many spells" (and endured many terrors) to find Queen Susan's horn years before. But that's all we ever hear about his magic and he certainly doesn't seem to be able to offer any more than that to help or protect Caspian. He clearly also doesn't have enough power to even attempt to overthrow Miraz or to influence events in Narnia in any greater way.

We do see a very sinister attempt to use magic later in Prince Caspian, when the Hag and the Wer-Wolf, egged on by Nikabrik, are planning to bring the White Witch back from the dead. We never find out whether they would actually have been able to do that, but they're obviously convinced they can and are determined to go ahead with it, until Peter, Edmund and Trumpkin burst in and save the day.

Coriakin in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is a more interesting and nuanced character, I think. He IS described specifically as a Magician and lives in a mysterious and at first rather creepy house, although all Lucy's fears about him vanish when she discovers he's really a friendly, good-hearted fellow. ("A brick", in her words.) But we also don't really know the extent of his powers. He changed the Duffers into Monopods as a quirky sort of punishment, then made them invisible, but those too aren't world-shaking abilities — more like him having a bit of fun with his foolish but amusing subjects, really. He also makes a magical map of the lands that the Dawn Treader has visited so far — although it has gaps, because it's only based on what Drinian himself has seen — and magically mends the damaged stern of the ship.

Of course, though, the most intriguing thing about Coriakin's house is his magic book, which Lucy reads through in order to find the spell to make hidden things visible. Most of the spells at first seem to be benevolent or neutral in purpose, at least till we get to the ones for controlling the weather (which could be done for good or evil reasons) and for giving a man an ass's head. But the spell to make "beautiful her that uttereth it beyond the lot of mortals" is one that would implicitly have had disastrous consequences if Lucy had said it — all the lands being laid waste through wars over her — and it's only Aslan's intervention that stops her. Even the spell that she does say, to hear what her friends are saying about her, only leads to hurt feelings and damage to a friendship. We don't know how many of these spells Coriakin himself has ever used, or for what purposes, but there are definitely some spells in his book that can have very harmful results.

It's later implied that Coriakin himself, for all his friendliness, isn't an entirely good character, or hasn't always been. Ramandu lets on that Coriakin is also a star come down to earth, not in retirement but as some kind of punishment — though humans aren't entitled to know "what faults a star can commit". That's something even more mysterious, perhaps, than the spells in his magic book! And we don't know whether Narnian stars use magic in any way while they're in the sky, or whether it's something Coriakin learned after being exiled to the earth. But he's clearly friends with Aslan and completely on his side, so whatever he did wrong, he hasn't totally fallen from grace.

Overall, though, throughout the seven books, there aren't that many characters who use magic at all, and of those who are on the side of good, I don't think we ever see them using magic in a way that hugely influences or transforms the world around them. We don't have any instant magic "fixes" for the challenges that the main characters face; even when Aslan draws on the Deeper Magic in order to overcome death and destroy the Stone Table, that's "magic" at a cosmic level, not a personal power that he's gained through his own efforts. And the only other characters who do use a great amount of magic — Jadis and the Green Witch — use it entirely for evil.

The only conclusion I'm coming to from all this is that magic in Narnia can be very powerful, but that people who use it to any great extent are liable to become corrupted by it. Lewis might have been saying something there about the nature of power itself; as the saying goes, power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (I hate to think what humans in our world would do with magic if we had it.) So that may be why we see relatively few characters who use magic at all, and why the good ones only use it for quite simple things.

And of course, all the good characters are on the side of Aslan, who has more power than any worldly magician! That's the best explanation I can think of for why the good people who use magic aren't necessarily the most exciting characters (though they're still very likeable) and their magic doesn't have a major influence on the plot. As for how Netflix should portray them, I really don't know, but I hope in a way that's consistent with the books.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 1, 2021 7:48 am
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SonofStone
(@sonofstone)
NarniaWeb Regular

      I will have to part ways (slightly) with you on this @courtenay. If we break them (the magicians/wizards) down, they are obviously not as strong or as much of a warrior as, say, Gandalf is, but I don't think it is because the magic or magicians of Narnia are inherently weaker, I believe that at least some wizards we read about could be very ruthless and deadly, but possibly because they are afraid (not in a bad way) or for some other reason we don't know, they (usually) aren't. Possibly (I know this is a bit of a stretch), Aslan has told the wizards that they can't become too strong, maybe he limits them? He (Aslan) might be trying to avoid have a witch/wizard that becomes as strong as the WW. I don't know...that's just pure speculation.

 

P.S. Obviously, calling Dr. Cornelius a magician is a bit of a stretch, but I tend to believe he is more powerful than we give him credit for... but who knows? And he is just cool anyways...

 

Child of the King: SonofStone

Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:13-14

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Posted : June 2, 2021 6:15 pm
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Guru Friend of NarniaWeb
Posted by: @sonofstone

If we break them (the magicians/wizards) down, they are obviously not as strong or as much of a warrior as, say, Gandalf is, but I don't think it is because the magic or magicians of Narnia are inherently weaker, I believe that at least some wizards we read about could be very ruthless and deadly, but possibly because they are afraid (not in a bad way) or for some other reason we don't know, they (usually) aren't. Possibly (I know this is a bit of a stretch), Aslan has told the wizards that they can't become too strong, maybe he limits them? He (Aslan) might be trying to avoid have a witch/wizard that becomes as strong as the WW. I don't know...that's just pure speculation.

Hmm, I don't think I was meaning to suggest that magic or magicians in Narnia are "inherently weaker" — magic is obviously a powerful factor there. I just meant that those who are on the side of good don't seem to use it to any great extent. That doesn't mean they couldn't, but perhaps the truly wise ones understand that no matter how good one's intentions, it's very easy to become tempted by the power that magic offers and use it for more and more selfish and dangerous purposes. Again, like Lucy very nearly casting the beauty spell. If someone who's normally one of the most innocent and good-hearted characters can be tempted like that — implicitly by her own jealousy of Susan — then those with more pride, ambition, envy, resentment etc. must naturally find it much harder to resist that pull to use magic in self-serving ways. (As illustrated most of all by Jadis, of course.)

Whether Aslan has laid down any rules to restrict magicians in Narnia from becoming too powerful, or whether most of them are wise enough in themselves not to take their use of magic too far, we just don't know — as you say, we can only speculate. It's not a subject Lewis himself spends a lot of time on, perhaps because most of his main characters are human children who don't have magic powers at all.

As for calling Doctor Cornelius a magician, I'm only going by his own descriptions of himself as "a very minor magician" and having "a little magic"! Wink He's one who I would say would definitely be wise and moral enough not to use it for any wrong purposes. Living under the Telmarines, anyway, he needs to hide his true identity as a half-Dwarf, and that surely would also include concealing even his limited knowledge of magic. I'm sure Miraz's opinion of magic would be the same as his opinion of Aslan and anything else to do with Old Narnia!

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 3, 2021 3:11 am
SonofStone
(@sonofstone)
NarniaWeb Regular

     

Posted by: @courtenay

I'm sure Miraz's opinion of magic would be the same as his opinion of Aslan and anything else to do with Old Narnia!

      This is an interesting thought you bring up... I have sometimes wondered about Miraz's stance on magic, I know he wouldn't be in favor of Aslan's (and all the other good magicians in Narnia) good magic, but what about a group like the Hag and the Weir-Wolf in the PC helping him with "black magic". They would probably have to be human for him to except their help, but would he use magic in any form or situation?

Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:13-14

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Posted : June 10, 2021 11:11 am
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Guru Friend of NarniaWeb
Posted by: @sonofstone

This is an interesting thought you bring up... I have sometimes wondered about Miraz's stance on magic, I know he wouldn't be in favor of Aslan's (and all the other good magicians in Narnia) good magic, but what about a group like the Hag and the Weir-Wolf in the PC helping him with "black magic". They would probably have to be human for him to except their help, but would he use magic in any form or situation?

You know, I very much doubt Miraz would have accepted them either, just going by what we know of him (and a lot of his ancestors) from the book. The Telmarines, on conquering Narnia, seem to have done their best to destroy or exile ALL the native Narnian creatures and peoples, regardless of who or what they were:

"Listen," said the Doctor. "All you have heard about Old Narnia is true. It is not the land of Men. It is the country of Aslan, the country of the Waking Trees and Visible Naiads, of Fauns and Satyrs, of Dwarfs and Giants, of the gods and the Centaurs, of Talking Beasts. It was against these that the first Caspian fought. It is you Telmarines who silenced the beasts and the trees and the fountains, and who killed and drove away the Dwarfs and Fauns, and are now trying to cover up even the memory of them. The King does not allow them to be spoken of." (p. 50, Puffin edition)

Hags and Wer-Wolves (to use Lewis's spelling) aren't mentioned in that list, but Nikabrik certainly allies himself with one of each of them, and those two seem as determined to get rid of Miraz as any of the other Old Narnians — even planning to bring back an utterly evil tyrant from the dead in order to get what they want.

And meanwhile, as far as I can see, it's not consistent with the whole plot of the book to think that Miraz would even want to use magic in any way, let alone try to. For him to admit the existence of magic in Narnia at all, let alone try to gain something by it, would be to admit that the Old Narnians were and are real — the beings he viciously dismisses as "fairy tales" and "nonsense" and a "pack of lies" when young Caspian starts talking about them, after which Miraz sends Caspian's nurse away rather than allow her to fill the young Prince's head with any more ideas about the "Old Days".

To accept any of the Old Narnian peoples as real — even the ones who might be persuaded somehow to use their powers in his service — would be to imply that all of them could be real, up to and including Aslan. And there's no way Miraz can do that without undermining everything he himself stands for. So, no, I really don't think he would ever use magic in any way, even the sort that might suit his purposes.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 10, 2021 12:07 pm
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