Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I assume the reason she felt she was able to freely write it out was because she felt she had nothing left that the gods could take from her--I guess her life wasn't worth a lot to her anymore. The gods' nature? ...offended easily?

To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

Hm. He really cares for nothing it seems to me other then what will do good for him. Daughters don't do him much good, so he doesn't like them much, etc.

he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

I suppose maybe a combination. Unsure.

The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

I'm unsure as I think I might have skimmed the descriptions.

How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

I'd say it's important since people think she's a goddess--I'm pretty sure that has a lot to do with the story further on. Yeah, I'd say a lot of our world really focuses on outer beauty. I mean, just look at who they idolize, right?

"I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

Mm, good question. I'd say it's probably not healthy. But I don't know how to explain why.

*waits for others to post things that are a little more substantial*

I don't have a lot of time, so I'll just answer a few right now.

1. "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I think no one with happiness would dare to accuse the gods because if they are happy they have no reason to. Or they might not because they are afraid that what little they have would be taken away. Orual believes she has nothing left, and so has nothing to lose. Orual believes the gods, especially Ungit, can easily be offended and are jealous of anyone who is thought to be their equal; which is why Orual is upset when Psyche is compared to a goddess.

. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

I would say it is definitely not a healthy love. Orual loves Psyche possessively. She doesn't want anyone else (except maybe the Fox) to be important to Psyche.

I'll come back later and reply to the rest.

1. "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I think it means that Orual knows if the gods get offended by her story, they will take something from her. But she has nothing she cares about now, so she is not afraid to tell the truth.

2. To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

I think he cares about nothing but himself and his well being, which would kind of make him a tryrannical dictator. He treats everyone badly, and alot of people suffer at his doing.

3. From the very first, the Fox was accepting of his fate; the fact that he was captured, and then treated very badly by his captor seemed to make no difference in his attitude. Apparently he was content with teaching Orual and Redival and working with/for the King. Up until when the King threatened to send him off to the mines, he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

I think it was both. He probably realized that he couldn't escape, and his place was to be a companion to Orual.

4. The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

they are both jealous? I have no idea...

5. Right after Psyche is born, we have a great deal of focus on her beauty, particularly through Orual's narration. How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

I think it shows that Orual isn't jealous. Also, I think beauty is very important, in Glome and in our world. People in Glome worshipped Psyche b/c she was so beautiful, and people still do that in our world.

6. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

erm, I don't know. I thought it was kind of sweet, that she loved her half-sister so so much. But it probably isn't healthy, since she's so possesive and obsessed wit her.

I have to admit a few of these questions have the feel of someone who's read the story already. This is going to be very interesting going through and reading along with you all for the first time.

I'm also not reading anyone's answers until after I get mine written out.

Why would no one with happiness dare to do this?

When you believe you have been cursed by the gods and that the gods decide your fate, what do you have to lose? What more can they take away from you when you believe you have already lost everything? If someone is happy and wishes to curse the gods, they have a lot to lose from it.

What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I don't really have an answer for this one yet.

To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

Really all of these questions can simply be answered that he is a human being who serves himself. If the benefits of others serve him, then they receive benefits. If they do not, they don't.

Was this because of [Fox's] personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

The glass was half full with the Fox. When you live your life, you see what you look for. If you look for good in things, you will find it. If you look for bad in things, you will find it. The choice of which to look for is entirely up to you.

The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

You may have to expound on this one wisewoman because Ungit immediately reminded me of Aphrodite. But perhaps that's because of my tiny bit of studying the Greek gods. Aphrodite was a goddess of great physical beauty but underneath the surface she was a self-serving w***e. Thus far I've been given no reason to think differently of Ungit.

Number 5 I can't answer yet because it's too early in the story. But I do love the juxtaposition immediately set up, not just between Oraul and Psyche, but also the other sister Redival.

Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

My first impression, no, it is not. It's a very selfish love. She wants Psyche for herself and doesn't want to share her. A healthy love is when you put the other person first (a rather difficult thing to do ).

Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

--If the gods decide to strike her down, she isn't losing happiness, love, friends or quite anything so it doesn't concern her.
--I think the assumption present is that Orual sees the gods as selfish, devouring, not caring for people on Earth?

To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

Agh! I despise that character to the fullest. Maybe he has a few good intentions but he's patently a coward.

Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

For me, I felt it was both. The Fox seemed like a character who was quite amiable and phlegmatic even when torture was decreed to him.

The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

I had read a different book where Aphrodite was mentioned, and her temple was described basically how Ungit's was in this book so ... they seemed pretty much the same dark and demanding person.

How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

Probably because she was so beautiful that Orual immediately liked her. If she was ordinary, I don't think that Orual would be as protective over her as she was. Evidently, Orual treated her nicely because of her beauty but did not envy it. Rather, she envied and coveted all Psyche's attention. The people of Glome did worship Psych because of her beauty. Outer beauty important in our world? It's debatable from different aspects. :/ If you're pretty, it could win you more favour but not all the time.

Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

At first reading, it struck me that Orual loved Psyche quite a lot but then it gave off a not-so-healthy air. Such a statement could be made when someone loves another so little or loves that person so much. In Orual's case, I can't really answer. Like others have said, though, it came off that whenever Psyche even mentioned another before Orual, Orual was mortified. I'm undecided about this one, though.

1 "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

Because if someone was happy, they would worry that the gods would take away their happiness. Orual is basically saying that she has nothing to lose by accusing the gods. That they are easily offended and demand absolute obedience, inflicting disaster on humans if they are not respected, and that happy people follow the gods like sheep. And the God of the Gray Mountain is the one who takes the most.

2. To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

He loses his temper viciously and is needlessly harsh. His actions in general show that he is definitely a tyrant, while his actions toward his daughters seem to show him as being violent to things that displease him, and indifferent to things that don't seem useful to him. He also seems be rather weak and selfish, and this mainly seems to smother any good intentions he has.

3. From the very first, the Fox was accepting of his fate; the fact that he was captured, and then treated very badly by his captor seemed to make no difference in his attitude. Apparently he was content with teaching Orual and Redival and working with/for the King. Up until when the King threatened to send him off to the mines, he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

I think it was partly because of his personality. He seems to be determined to be content in whatever situation he is in. But, then again, it would have been virtually impossible to escape anyway, so I think it is definitely a combination of the two.

4. The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

Because love can be, and often is, devouring and demands sacrifice. Also, they are 'equally terrible' in the sense of being powerful and altogether alien from humans, yet still interfering in their lives in rather dark ways. There is fear and numinous awe in humans' attitudes toward them, and well, they both aren't nice. They are both connected with love, but love can wear a terrible aspect.

5. Right after Psyche is born, we have a great deal of focus on her beauty, particularly through Orual's narration. How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

It seemed Orual valued beauty a lot, since she knew she was ugly, and people treated her badly because of it. So she seemed that she was enjoying Psyche's beauty vicariously. Next to being beautiful herself, the next best thing for her is to have a beautiful sister. She seems to think your outer beauty determines your inner worth, so I think Psyche's beauty made her pay more attention to her than she would have otherwise. Beauty seems to be valued very much in Glome, especially in women. Outer beauty is very important in our world as well, because--it is a pleasure to see a beautiful person, but the modern world has developed that into an obsession, especially with women. No matter what else you are, you must be pretty, and nobody will like you if you aren't. And you can get away with a lot--if you are pretty.

6. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

No, it isn't. It comes down to being so possessive of the one you love--that is the word that best describes Orual's love--that you want them to have troubles so you can have the pleasure of easing them. I wouldn't call that a healthy love.

You may have to expound on this one wisewoman because Ungit immediately reminded me of Aphrodite.

I know a little bit about Greek mythology, but apparently just enough to make me dangerous . My impression of Aphrodite was that she was a beautiful, lascivious, selfish goddess. The worship of Ungit and her image as a dark stone that blood was poured over make her seem (to me, at least) much uglier and different from the gorgeous, supposedly irresistible Greek goddess of love. But underneath I guess they aren't that different. There is the mention of Ungit's prostitute priestesses, and apparently both goddesses use their female sexuality to control and enslave humans.

To answer one of my own questions:

What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I don't want to give too much away (and I'm not sure this has to be spoilered, but am spoilering just to be safe), but

1. "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

I think she is basically saying to the gods I have nothing to lose so go ahead and punish me. Maybe since she does not think she has anything to live for she wants to offend the gods so they’ll kill her. In chapter 2 she tells how she’s always been taught that if someone kill themselves they’ll have a horrible afterlife, so maybe this her way of getting around actually having to take her own life.

2. To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

I don’t like the King. He does seem to care about the kingdom, but not the citizens of the kingdom. If he cared about his subjects he wouldn’t be so quick to kill them, like when he murdered the slave boy because he dropped a drink. The way he treat his children shows that he only care about how other people can benefit him.

3. From the very first, the Fox was accepting of his fate; the fact that he was captured, and then treated very badly by his captor seemed to make no difference in his attitude. Apparently he was content with teaching Orual and Redival and working with/for the King. Up until when the King threatened to send him off to the mines, he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

I believe since he doesn’t believe he can escape he’s trying to make the best of a bad situation.

4. The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?
I really don’t know enough about the Greek gods to answer this.

5. Right after Psyche is born, we have a great deal of focus on her beauty, particularly through Orual's narration. How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

I think the fact that Orual obsesses over her sister’s beauty shows how inferior she feels. I wonder if she would be so obsessed with Psyche if she was plain looking. It seems Orual thinks since she is ugly she is inferior to beautiful people and must serve them.

6. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

I don’t think this is a healthy love because Orual’s perception is distorted. She only see’s the good things about her sister she can’t see her flaws and everyone (except God) has some flaws. Since she can’t see her sister’s flaws, she can’t love her sister unconditionally.

QUESTION 1

I assume the reason she felt she was able to freely write it out was because she felt she had nothing left that the gods could take from her--I guess her life wasn't worth a lot to her anymore.

I think that you've more or less hit the nail on the head when you say this. I think that you're absolutely right to say that Orual has nothing left. For those who have read the book before, this will be clearly evident. Orual places such a low value on herself time and time again, and only seems to give worth to herself through other people. "I have worth through Fox, because I'm his student and friend." "I have worth through Psyche because I'm her protector and surrogate mother." But one thing that struck me throughout this chapter is that she never values herself for the person that she is. I think that it's a critique on the self-esteem issues that all of us have. So many of us feel as if we only have worth through other people, but often fail to realise that being ourselves is equally worthy. I don't know. . . perhaps I'm reading too much into this.

Also, I think that Orual is a fairly lonely individual. I think she's always been lonely, and I think that even when Psyche comes along, she's still lonely (although she may conceal her loneliness). What makes me think this goes along with question 6. Orual talks a good deal about how she wishes that she could all of these deeper relationships with her sister, which, to me, indicates that she isn't satisfied with the relationship that she does have. . . she wants more. It might be hinted at throughout the book that this is because of her beauty (heck, everybody wants as much of Psyche as they can get, particularly when the plague strikes), but there's just something about Orual's relationship with her youngest sister that leaves more to be desired. . . Does anybody have any idea what could be missing?

When you believe you have been cursed by the gods and that the gods decide your fate, what do you have to lose?

This is an interesting thought, and I'd never really considered it before. A sort of "I'm done for either way because the gods hate me, so why not go down with swords drawn!" I'm not sure that this "devil-may-care" attitude goes along with the rest of Orual's character, but it is definitely an interesting though. If Orual was predestined to have all of these trials, than why should she care if the gods have already predestined the rest of her fate. . .

I think the assumption present is that Orual sees the gods as selfish, devouring, not caring for people on Earth?

Another interesting thought. Could we possibly interpret this as a sort of rebellion; much like the sort that so many people have against God today. The idea that "I can't serve a God who sends people to hell!!!" or "I can't serve a God who would allow people to be sick!!!" In some way, could this book be Orual rebelling against the gods who have done her wrong, merely for the fact that they have wronged her? Again, I think it an interesting possibility.

Has anybody else but me come to the conclusion yet, that Orual is going to be a pretty difficult character to label/peg.

That they are easily offended and demand absolute obedience, inflicting disaster on humans if they are not respected, and that happy people follow the gods like sheep.

So what does that say about Orual then? Because to me, and I agree with you about the gods, that it means that she's a bit selfish. After all, if the gods are real, and I as Queen right this stuff down, and royally tick them off, they might take it out on more than just me. What is to stop the gods from taking action against her people as well. Is it necessarily wrong for Orual to have this attitude towards her people?

In chapter 2 she tells how she’s always been taught that if someone kill themselves they’ll have a horrible afterlife, so maybe this her way of getting around actually having to take her own life.

OOH! That's a very interesting theory; one that I'd never before considered! It goes along very well with the one proposed by Lady Haleth that she doesn't really care about her people, only about herself. I think that if we hold this view of Orual, the fact that she is writing this book, and the fact that she has already seen to the succession of the throne becomes very important.

QUESTION 2

Hm. He really cares for nothing it seems to me other then what will do good for him. Daughters don't do him much good, so he doesn't like them much, etc.

I think he cares about nothing but himself and his well being, which would kind of make him a tryrannical dictator. He treats everyone badly, and alot of people suffer at his doing.

He loses his temper viciously and is needlessly harsh. His actions in general show that he is definitely a tyrant, while his actions toward his daughters seem to show him as being violent to things that displease him, and indifferent to things that don't seem useful to him. He also seems be rather weak and selfish, and this mainly seems to smother any good intentions he has.

I just don't think it's as simple as that. As Fantasia_Kitty pointed out, we have to look at him as a human being, but what is so often overlooked in this work (and what has stricken me the times that I have read it) is the fact that the King, all in all, isn't that bad of a guy. This is all because of the fact that he has to wear the crown, and a lot of responsibility is placed on his head.

It's obvious that he doesn't have the trust in his daughters that he should, but that wouldn't have been uncommon for a king of this time period (just look at Henry VIII). Much like Henry VIII, the king is interested in his kingdom, and in producing an heir. Going off of another Lewis work, with which all of us are familliar, we find these guidelines for being King:

Can you use a spade and plow and raise food out of the earth?

Will you treat these creatured kindly and fairly?

Would you have favourites? Either among your people, or among the creatures?

If enemies came against the land, would you be the first in the charge and the last in the retreat?

If all of these things are done, than the king will have done "all that the king should do." Correct? Well. . . apart from a few misgivings about his temper (treating people kindly and fairly), the king does all of these things. It's evident throughout this book that Orual and the king take a great interest in the crops that Glome is producing. He doesn't treat his own children any differently than he treats the peasants. In fact, he's willing to sacrifice Psyche to fever, just for them to be appeased (a fact which I can't decide whether it's reckless or noble for a king to do). And he's definitely willing to squash any enemies (like the attempted treason in the middle of chapter three, led by Redival's boyfriend's father.)

So, in reading the king in future. . . I just don't think it fair to judge him so critically. He has a lot more things to worry about then other people. None of us can truly judge his actions, unless we too have experienced that. I'm not condoning his activities by any means (he certainly does have a RAVENOUS temper that consumes everything!) but I can't help but wonder what it springs from.

QUESTION 3

The Fox has always perplexed me as a character, because I've never been quite sure what to do with him. At times he has attributes of all of the following traits: Extreme pride, Wisdom, Bravery, Love, Despair, Emptiness, Lack of Emotion/Will, etc. . . . . . There are times when I can definitely read Fox very cynically. There are times when I say to myself, "He just to proud to be a runaway slave. Even as a slave member of court he has some dignity remaining, but to runaway would evaporate this last bit of pride he has remaining. This is illustrated by the fact that he lost his last red hair to something as trivial as singing a song in Greek." But then at other times, I think to myself, "He is such an unsung hero. The way that he behaved concerning the song shows that he was willing to stand up against the king, and that he still held a great deal of love and national spirit of his homeland." There are times when I think he's arrogant: "What gives him the right to questions the gods' existence? Wat gives him the right to try to force his beliefs onto Orual? Are not her beliefs just as valid as his?" So I really don't know what to do with him. . .

He probably realized that he couldn't escape, and his place was to be a companion to Orual.

I agree with you here, GtG, that he very likely couldn't escape. Orual's father, and his army are just too strong, and any slave as close to the secrets of the court as Fox was, would definitley be hunted down, and tortured! His escape would have been a national security crisis! But your claim that his place was with Orual is a bit sketchy in my book. I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility, but I'd ask for some proof. Where do you see this throughout the book?

For me, I felt it was both. The Fox seemed like a character who was quite amiable and phlegmatic even when torture was decreed to him.

Another great way to read Fox; as a "salty-old-dog" figure, who'll take everything you give him, without saying a word, and then come back for more.

I believe since he doesn’t believe he can escape he’s trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Puddleglummish? Interesting. I'd never considered the possiblity now, but throughout this discussion I can see the similarities. It would make a very intersting topic to discuss the similarities between these two characters. . .

QUESTION 4

I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on this, because the answer is smattered across the first three chapters. Fox doesn't believe in Ungit or Aphrodite, so his opinion on either boils down to nothing more than story-telling. I don't think it is literarily important to talk about the similarities between these two gods (if there are any. . . ), but I find it more interesting that Fox does tell these stories. To me, it's the encouragement for Orual, and later Psyche, to think on these stories of the gods, that really drives a lot of the action of the story, but as I said. . . it's a moot point talking about things like they are facts, when you yourself don't even believe in them.

QUESTION 5

One of the main passages that made me think of this question was this:

I went to see Psychethat very evening as soon as the Fox had set my mind at rest. And so, in one hour, I passed out of the worst anguish I had yet suffered into the beginning of all my joys.

The child was very big, not a wearish little thing as you might have expected from her mother's stature, and very fair of skin. You would have thought she made bright all the corner of the room in whch she lay. She slept (tiny was the sound of her breathing). But there never was a child like Psyche for quietness in her cradle days. As I gazed at her the Fox came in on tiptoes and whispered, "old fool that I am, I could almost believe that there really is divine blood in your family. Helen herself, new-hatched, must have looked so."

Batta had put her to nurse with a red-haired woman who was sullen and (like Batta herself) too fond on the wine-jar. I soon had the child out of their hands. I got for her a nurse a free woman, a peasant's wife, as honest and wholesome as I could find, and after that both were in my own chamber day and night. Batta was only too pleased to have her work done for her, and the King knew and cared nothing about it. The Fox said to me, "Don't wear yourself out, daughter, with too much toil, even if the child is as beautiful as a goddess." But I laughed in his face. I think I laughed more in those days than in all my life before. Toil? I lost more sleep looking on Psyche for the joy of it than in any other way. And I laughed because she was always laughing. She laughed before the third month. She knew me for certain (though the Fox said not) before the second.

This was the beginning of the best times. . . . .

I think that this passage is very significant because it ties the beauty of Psyche with the happiness of Orual. It is very interesting to me, because it ties together two very different ideas. Beauty is tangible, it's physical, and has nothing to do with the way a person is inside (I'm talking of course about the outer beauty, not the inner beauty, which a child of Psyche's age would not have been able to display yet). But laughter springs from joy and happiness; both intangible, or metaphysical things. So I had to ask myself why Orual takes such pride, and such happiness in Psyche's appearance.

After much thought, I think it came down to something like this. Orual is ugly. We've been told this throughout the book. In fact, the scene in which Orual first discovers that she is ugly (I can't find it right now, but if somebody else can, I'd be appreicative!) is one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the whole book.

To me, it seems like it was so important for the King to produce an heir who combines elements of Redival's beauty with Orual's inner beauty. To me, that is why she takes such a keen interest on Psyche's beauty. To Orual, Psyche is her redemption; Psyche is what she herself wishes to be, and yet, it's more than that. The beauty is deeper than that.

Next to being beautiful herself, the next best thing for her is to have a beautiful sister.

Really? I have to debate this point, because before Psyche was born, Orual still had Redival, and according to Batta and other, Redival was very beautiful. Truth be told, Redival's beauty looks like a dirty rag compared with Psyche's, but I don't think it's entirely accurate to tie up Orual's fixation with the beauty of the child entirely on the fact that they're related (or half-related actually as they're half-sisters)

I wonder if she would be so obsessed with Psyche if she was plain looking. It seems Orual thinks since she is ugly she is inferior to beautiful people and must serve them.

I have to wonder the same thing. I do agree with your second point, particularly as it really ties in well with the idea raised in the first question asked. If Orual views her life as worthless towards the gods, and towards her fellow man, then the idea that she can only find worth through others (particularly this beautiful goddess that views Orual as a mother figure) becomes vital.

And there's another aspect of the whole mothering thing, that is important. I think that, in a way, it fulfills Orual's desire to be beautiful. If she was able to mother/raise such a beautiful child, then doesn't it show that she is capable of beauty herself? I think this segways into the last question about how healthy her attachment to Psyche is. So. . .

QUESTION 6

I've already mentioned my main though via question five's response. I think that the different ways in which Orual wishes to love her sister each express a different manifestation of her desires towards herself.

She wants to be her mother to prove that even she can genetically produce beauty that is called "virtue in human form." AKA, beauty from ashes (a very lovely concept).

She wants to be a boy so that Psyche would fall in love with her could denote two different things. The first is a little bit of Orual's pride, after all, she's going off of the assumption that Psyche would choose to love her rather than somebody else. Also, it shows the more creepy fixation that she has with her sister - the feeling of posession that she has towards Psyche, a feeling that she perhaps would like to have towards herself.

The fact that she wants Psyche to be a slave, so that she could set her free and make her rich, signifies to me that she would love nothing more than to have Psyche indebted to her. In a way, I think that Psyche is indebted to her, but doesn't realise it (AKA, Orual thinks more highly of Psyche than she ought). But when it comes right down to it, I agree with just about everybody in here, when they say that it isn't a natural love; it's far deeper. Whether that deepness is a good thing or a bad thing I'm not sure. . .

And so ends my uber long post

1. "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?

It is assumed that the gods are capricious, vindictive and spiteful. Since Orual has already lost happiness she's not afraid to speak against them--there's nothing more they can do to her.

2. To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?

He's a cruel and cowardly man. As far as his treatment of his children, he is not entirely void of natural affection (which is stronger than soup, as the poets have said!) but he is so self-centered that he finds it easier to abuse or neglect them than to be a real father.

3. From the very first, the Fox was accepting of his fate; the fact that he was captured, and then treated very badly by his captor seemed to make no difference in his attitude. Apparently he was content with teaching Orual and Redival and working with/for the King. Up until when the King threatened to send him off to the mines, he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?

The Fox was a scholar; he took joy in learning and teaching. He not only learned to love his pupils, Orual and Psyche, but he also loved to learn them. (groaner! )
I think that bond, taken with the near impossibility of escape from Glome, led to the resignation that we see in him.

4. The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?

Perhaps Aphrodite was a more superficial form of the same goddess--a polished lie that the Greeks had put on the true face of Ungit.

5. Right after Psyche is born, we have a great deal of focus on her beauty, particularly through Orual's narration. How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?

I think it emphasizes the divide between carnal and spiritual, body and soul, fleshly love and redeemed love, etc. But we'll get into that later in the book. As far as Orual's character, I think we can quickly see that she is not jealous of her sister's beauty. In fact, she loves her for it! But the people of Glome love outward beauty in much the same way that people generally do today--for the pleasure or profit that we can derive from it. All human loves tend this way unless they are made subservient to Charity. (See The Four Loves.)

6. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?

It could have been. But I think this 'love' came more from Orual's need to be needed than an earnest desire for the good of Psyche. Which is not to say it wasn't sincere--it was only misguided, and not entirely honest.

Just a little warning: I had a rough time at work (screaming / wild kids) so my answers might not be extremely coherent. I also haven't read anyone else's answers yet.
1. "I will write in this book what no one who has happiness would dare to write. I will accuse the gods..."
Why would no one with happiness dare to do this? What assumption is present about the nature of the gods (especially the god of the Grey Mountain)?
I think she is assuming that the gods are vengeful and if any one says anything against them they will harm that person. Since she is already miserable, she has nothing to lose by insulting the gods.

2. To what extent is the King of Glome a bad king? Is he a king who has good intentions but whose temper gets in the way, or is he a tyrannical dictator? What does the manner in which he treats his children show us about his character?
I don’t really think he has very good intentions. All he seems to care about is having a son to carry on his line. He has very little regard for people. He seems to care very little for his children. I think he mostly cares about them to see what he can get out of them. If he truly cared about Psyche, he wouldn’t have let her go out and touch all those people. He definitely has problem with his temper but I think he behaves much the same when he is angry and when he is not. Not that he would kill people for no reason when he is not angry but the same disregard for others is there. Angry or not he wants his own way and intends to get it.

3. From the very first, the Fox was accepting of his fate; the fact that he was captured, and then treated very badly by his captor seemed to make no difference in his attitude. Apparently he was content with teaching Orual and Redival and working with/for the King. Up until when the King threatened to send him off to the mines, he didn't even seem to have any desire to escape. Was this because of his personality, or because, as he argued later, it would be impossible to escape? Perhaps a combination of both?
It is really hard to tell. I’m guessing it is a little of both. He puts a good face on things but from what Orual said, it sounds like he might be as content as he seemed. I think he knew that he couldn’t escape so he dealt with it. I do think that he enjoyed his time with Orual.

4. The Fox conflates Glome's goddess Ungit with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. On first glance, they seem like opposites. Why would the Fox believe they are the same?
Well, it seems like Ungit has to do with maidens and childbearing. I suppose that would kind of fall under the goddess of love’s duties.

5. Right after Psyche is born, we have a great deal of focus on her beauty, particularly through Orual's narration. How is this important to the story, particularly since we know that Orual herself isn't exactly beautiful? What can we discover about Orual's character by the way that she treats her newborn sister? How does beauty seem to be important to the people of Glome? Is outer beauty important in our world? Why or why not?
It shows the difference between the two sisters. Orual realizes that she is not considered as valuable by others because she is not beautiful. Orual isn’t the jealous type. It would be so easy for her to be jealous of her sister but she isn’t. She has a good heart and wants to take care of people. It seems that the people of Glome put a lot of value on beauty. They assume that if someone is very beautiful she is a goddess or at least part one. They tend to worship Psyche because of her beauty. I think many people in our world put a lot of value on outer beauty. I think advertising and the media are a good indication of this. However, we do also tend to talk about inner beauty. I think our world’s view on beauty is more balanced than the view in the story but it is still leans more to the outer beauty side.

6. "I wanted to be a wife so that I could have been her real mother. I wanted to be a boy so that she could be in love with me. I wanted her to be my full sister instead of my half sister. I wanted her to be a slave so that I could set her free and make her rich."
Is this a healthy love? Why or why not?
It doesn’t sound healthy to me. I was taken aback by it when I read it and felt that something wasn’t right about it. Orual seems to think that she can’t do enough for her sister as herself. She seems to want to do too much. She kind of seems obsessive about her sister and obsessions can be unhealthy.

DiGs: Wow, I really liked your thoughts on the end question!!

And when I was talking about her beauty as compared to Redival's, I think this involves beauty of spirit. as well as beauty of body. Psyche not only has outer beauty, but inner beauty as well, and when she got older, I think that could be as much of a reason for love as her lovely face. For what does a lovely face matter when the person who has it is mean and spiteful?
And I won't deny that the King had some good qualities. He does seem to care for his people. But his temper also leads him to violent acts.

If he truly cared about Psyche, he wouldn’t have let her go out and touch all those people.

Yes, but if he hadn't let her, then the counter argument that he didn't care about his people could also be made. It is a horrible double standard to which all kings are forced to submit. Should a king care more for his family, or for his people?

Queen Susan: Thank you, I appreciated your thoughtfullness as well. I hope that conversations like this can continue without too much confusion