1. Screwtape seems to be advocating the "every man for himself" view of humanity, which a lot of people do hold. It also is probably the worst way to go through life.

God Himself said when creating Man, "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Jesus considered his own personal relationships, particularly with his disciples, to be important. And throughout the Bible, there are stories of people whose lives are changed for the better by the people around them, and exhortations by the New Testament letter writers for Christians to regularly engage in fellowship with one another.

A great fallacy that unfortunately some Christians believe is that "God is all I need", or more specifically, "God is the only relationship I need". After all, other humans will fail us, but God never will, right? But that is nowhere in the Bible. The fact that other humans will fail us is the reason we are to show grace and mercy to them, like God has shown us. It is not an excuse to avoid connection.

What happens when someone adopts an "every man for himself" attitude? These people have likely been hurt by others, and so they take their need for other people and suppress it. They become something akin to an anorexic: they need relationship, but they do not feel the hunger for it. Unfortunately, the need is still there, and it can manifest itself in various ways, such as depression, feelings of emptiness and meaninglessness, addictions, and issues of rage.

All this is to say that, of course Screwtape is wrong here.

(Now, within connection there has to be boundaries between the connecting people. But that's another issue, and perhaps another letter.)

2. Ooh boy...

Of course, there are plenty of verses that talk about love in general; 1 Corinthians 13 is the well-known example, and Jesus's statement that that there is no greater love than when someone "lays down their life" for a friend (including figuratively) applies, too. However, when it comes specifically to the marriage relationship...

First of all, I must offer up Ephesians 5:25-31. This verse specifically addresses the husband's role in loving his wife (which allows the wife to take up her role in submitting to him). At the end, Paul refers to the becoming of "one flesh" that marriage--and in particular, the sexual consummation of such--entails: it is that which allows the man to fully enter into his role of caring for his wife, for as he would naturally take care of his own flesh, so he now must care for her.

That said... verses that illustrate what Love is? I'll go one better and offer an entire book of the Bible...

Song of Solomon.

Go on. Go ahead and read it. Yes, it's that book. Yes, if you read it aloud you'll make someone around you blush. But I don't think anywhere else in the Bible is Love, as it pertains specifically to the marital relationship, is illustrated so perfectly. Some key items found there:

- Love builds the other up. As the two in the poem praise each other, particularly in their physical appearances, there is no sense of judgment, no view of blemishes in the other (4:7).
- Love has a unifying power to it, shown as the man calls the woman to come with him from wherever she is (4:8).
- Love definitely has a sensuous element to it. This should not be suppressed, as the pleasure and fun of sex do have their place. I believe Screwtape covered this already...
- Love is responsive, as shown as the man and woman exchange their responses with each other.
- Love, and yes, sex, have a nourishing element to them: note all the different food references in the book.
- And, most importantly, love (and sex) cannot be awakened until its proper time. The woman frequently tells the unmarried girls to "not stir up or awaken love until it pleases". Passionate love, devoid of its holy context of marriage, is dangerous. It is like inviting a stranger into a valuable garden and allowing him to steal from it, hence why the man describes the woman's sexuality as a "locked garden" (4:12). Sex is holy, and it must be set apart for marriage.

3. Oh, I'm not done yet!

Screwtape mentions the two "advantages" of the fact that humans have now made romantic love the benchmark on whether or not to marry and whether or not a marriage is happy. I think both of them have some worth discussing.

First, Screwtape mentions the "advantage" that people consider marrying for reasons other than romantic love to be unworthy of consideration. The "We're in love; that's all that matters!" view that, unfortunately, much of modern society has taken up leaves many couples to not consider serious issues such as whether they work well together as a team, whether they can build each other up, or whether they have similar plans for family and child-rearing.

On the flip side of that is that there are likewise good reasons to get married. Screwtape mentions "loyalty to a partnership for mutual help": a couple who makes each other grow as individuals and closer to God, and who can channel that growth into serving the outside world, can make a good married couple. "Preservation of chastity" sounds like the whole "get married so we can have sex without feeling guilty" idea that can be bad, but at the same time, in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul does say that those who feel sexual desire (in and of itself not bad) would do well to get married so as to not carry that desire out inappropriately. In order for that to be achieved, of course, the entirety of the sexual act, including emotional intimacy and the marital commitment as well as the elements of Love I mentioned above, need to be present, but it's not a bad reason in and of itself. And "transmission of life", or making a family, could be a good basis too. And there are many more which Screwtape doesn't mention.

The question is, what if a couple has one or more of these "good reasons" to get married, but not the aspect of romantic love? Well, the letter says that the "Enemy", a.k.a. God, has designed the sexual act to help foster the emotional affection and intimacy that is in romance, which to start is already an interesting consideration. But beyond that, it's worth keeping in mind that romantic passion, even if not quite at the level of full sexual desire, can be produced in a relationship. Developing intimacy by getting to know each other more might do the trick; setting boundaries and developing separateness might be the key; a guy who decides to stop being passive and start taking initiative may awaken romance in the girl; sometimes, it's a matter of not repressing sexuality like we're afraid of it and channel that without acting out; that's just a couple of ways. All of these things are good for a relationship and key into the "good reasons" for marrying, and they likewise can bring about romance.

Second, Screwtape mentions that the whole "We're in love; that's all that matters!" view can easily lead someone into marrying someone horribly wrong for them. This is pretty clear to see, and yet so many people, caught up in the storm of emotion, just ignore things that are going to be damaging for them down the road. This is especially present for Christians who believe it's okay to marry a non-Christian, not realizing that they are potentially "yoking" themselves to someone whose belief and value systems are going to try to pull them in a wholly different direction from where the Christian wants to go.

As a final note, the whole idea that the happiness of marriage is based on the presence of romantic love has, unfortunately, been the contributor of many divorces, where a couple splits because "the magic is gone". On that note, I have come across many articles--by secular sources, no less--that have come to the conclusion that marriage is not about romance that will somehow last forever without any work. There is work to be done in marriage to make the most of it, and that work includes and will help in preserving romance. Many who divorce for supposed "incompatibility" reasons are really just giving up without a fight, not willing to put in the work that other couples of two people, who are going to be fundamentally different regardless of any sense of "compatibility", have put in to make a successful--and romantic--marriage.

1. Screwtape is wrong. While our fallen nature does promote self first, redemption allows us to put others first. And when we seek to follow Christ and be like Him, it will show in our actions toward others, particularly loving them.

2. Probably one of the most obvious verses that describes love is John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." Even if few people ever have to literally lay down their lives for someone else, love is dying to self for the sake of someone else. Even if it's not very glorious, I think the most powerful show of love can be when you stop seeking your own good first and seek the good of someone you love.
Also, I thought of a lot of passages especially in the Prophets that talk about how God loved Israel, and how He cared from her (usually followed after by a description of Israel sinning and turning away from God, but oh well).
Then, too, there are the many verses stardf mentioned.

3. Something I found kind of interesting was the putting forth of the idea that the deep love comes out of marriage and not necessarily before. I suppose this is at least partially due to spending time with eachother and getting to know eachother more and more, and having a shared foundation in Christ. I've heard that before, but I was just struck by it again in reading it.

2. Screwtape references 1 Corinthians 6 and 7 in reference to the love between a man and a woman and spends some time on what Love is not. What verses can you think of that illustrate what Love is?
1 Corinthians 13:4-8

3. What did you find interesting and/or discussion worthy in this letter?
I found it interesting that Screwtape brings up the fact that most people think of ''being in love'' as the only real reason to get married and that we think of other motives for getting married as low and cynical.

Well stardf, I think you covered the topic pretty well. I suspect that a lot of that is a distillation of the Mush thread in the Spare Oom? I was always in awe over how thoughtful and lengthy your posts were. I especially loved your outline of the different things Song of Solomon teaches. I just read that book, but I want to go back and reread it to see some of those points again. I also don't have anything to add to your discussion of intimacy in relationships. You covered it all thoroughly. That said, I have a few things to add on some other points.

(An aside: as much as I think Facebook is a horrible website, I miss being able to tag people I'm responding to. )

1. I'm definitely going to disagree with Screwtape here that the fact of our existence meaning we will inevitably compete and out compete everyone around us (or be consumed.) This strikes me as as sentiment Charles Darwin supported in his theories. Lewis makes a good case for why Satan would want to propagate the "survival of the fittest" mentality. It's because it's so against what God wants. God wants to teach us to love one another, to get out of the way and to love our neighbor as we would ourselves. In fact He wants us to love each other more. (In John 13:34 Jesus gives us a new commandment: to love each other as he loved us. And since he died for us, this is a pretty steep commandment. One I fail at.)

I've always found it interesting that evolution tries to explain away altruism, or the type of love Jesus commands, but making it selfish. (The entire population is more likely to pass on genes if a few individuals die for example.) But God is bigger and better that. He died for us, and he really got nothing out of it. He doesn't need the worship we give him, and even our works after we're saved still rely on the Christ's redeeming work to have any value at all. And even outside of the character of God, we find love and working together for the mutual good. I've always been amazed by mycorrhizea fungi. They attach to a plants roots, but instead of diseasing the plant, in exchange for sugar, they effectively expand the plant's root system, so it can take up more water and nutrients. Both organisms do better working together (and scientists have recently observed that mycorrhizea can even attach multiple trees to each other through a network of the fungi... and move nutrients from a healthy tree to a sick one.)

And I'd agree with Lewis that Satan is pretty clueless about what all this really means. He's too busy destroying to know what it means to build.

2. While everyone has already mentioned 1 Corinthians 13, it's just too quintessential to skip over. I especially like verse 4 through 7. It shows how loves looks practically, and it isn't a lovey-dovey feeling we get at the beginning of a relationship, and it's not selfish competition to get our genes to the next generation.

In these verses, love is practically lived out, and it does look like dying to self. We have to be patient with other people... even if they leave a mess in the kitchen or don't understand our obsession with the internet. Even more than that, love is kind, not squashing other people's feelings. It's not proud and doesn't boast, so if we are really loving each other, we can't talk about what a good job we're doing... about how much of the responsibly of the relationship we're taking on while the other person is dead weight, spending more money than they make or being an emotional drain. And the big one (at least for me) love doesn't keep a record of wrongs. We can't keep score, even in our heads, of how much we do for the other person. We're so concerned with meeting their needs, we effectively forget about our own... how much we do that we aren't paid back for. (And I think keeping score is actually a major theme of the Screwtape Letters. Every time Wormwood messes up, it goes onto his account. And while Screwtape starts out looking out for his prodigy, it's always selfish and the opposite of love.)

And I didn't even mention not dishonoring others, or keeping our tempers or protecting or trusting or persevering.

3. Do I have any more thoughts? Just a few. I think that it's really incredible that Lewis wrote this before he met Joy Gresham. It just seems like something he would have written after he'd had a real experience making a relationship work, sex and all.

Also, the last few sentences of the chapter really hit me personally. I broke up with someone because I didn't feel like we had any "chemistry." So I know what it's like to "[find] the idea of marrying with any other motive [...] low and cynical." However, in my defense, we didn't communicate very well, and I think that's pretty key. Also, looked pretty baffled whenever I tried to explain the NarniaWeb community or that I was writing a novel, or whenever I mentioned nerdy things in general.

1. Is Screwtape correct that to "be" means to "be in competition"? Why or why not? He is only correct on the very basic idea that if something is taking up space something else cannot be there. Obviously there is competition, but there are plenty of examples of mutual beneficial relationships, such as the example Aravanna mentioned.

A great fallacy that unfortunately some Christians believe is that "God is all I need", or more specifically, "God is the only relationship I need". ... These people have likely been hurt by others, and so they take their need for other people and suppress it. They become something akin to an anorexic: they need relationship, but they do not feel the hunger for it. Unfortunately, the need is still there, and it can manifest itself in various ways, such as depression, feelings of emptiness and meaninglessness, addictions, and issues of rage.

That really is an easy trap to fall into, especially the part about not needing relationships with others. In my experience, God doesn't let me get away with that idea at all. No matter how hard I try to distance myself and not make friends it doesn't work. God has other plans. When I don't really have any friends, I don't think I need any and feel perfectly content. Then when I have friends or a friend I again, I realize how much better things are. I recently listened to the Four Loves and Lewis makes the point that it isn't safe to give your heart to anyone or anything - including God.

3. Oh, I'm not done yet!

Nope. And I can't think of anything to add to what you have already said on the subject.

1. Is Screwtape correct that to "be" means to "be in competition"? Why or why not?

I think it means that in the case of a lot of people, because that's how they choose to live. I think it's how we all live without Christ. But Christ binds us together like a family, which is the way it's supposed to be.

2. Screwtape references 1 Corinthians 6 and 7 in reference to the love between a man and a woman and spends some time on what Love is not. What verses can you think of that illustrate what Love is?

Like Stardf29 said, Song of Songs is a great book about love between a man and woman. It's unfortunate that it so often gets a bad wrap. I even recently heard a person close to me say that perhaps the book didn't belong in the Bible because of its erotic content. The truth is, sex in marriage is a special gift from God, and Song of Songs' presence in the Bible proves that it is not something sinful and wrong as some people (yes, including Christians) claim. I don't know if it's an allegory of Christ and the church, as some people say, but I have seen some people make the claim in order to try to prove that sex (even within marriage) is sinful and the allegorical connotations are the only reason why it's in Scripture. Well, this doesn't hold water. Even if it were complete allegory, God would not use something sinful to represent His Son's relationship to the church.

So, Song of Songs would also be my choice as a Biblical example of marital love. It goes where most Christians don't believe they should dare to go, and says, "Yes, this really is a gift from God!"

3. What did you find interesting and/or discussion worthy in this letter?

Nothing in the letter itself, but I did quite like this one quote from Stardf29:

A great fallacy that unfortunately some Christians believe is that "God is all I need", or more specifically, "God is the only relationship I need". After all, other humans will fail us, but God never will, right? But that is nowhere in the Bible. The fact that other humans will fail us is the reason we are to show grace and mercy to them, like God has shown us. It is not an excuse to avoid connection.

I would just like to thank you for that. That was something I needed to hear, since I actually get told that fallacy a lot by people and didn't quite see their lack of logic until now.

~Riella

I think this letter should be required reading for all engaged couples.

1. Is Screwtape correct that to "be" means to "be in competition"? Why or why not?

He is only correct on the very basic idea that if something is taking up space something else cannot be there. Obviously there is competition, but there are plenty of examples of mutual beneficial relationships, such as the example Aravanna mentioned.

I would disagree. Two objects can take up the same space, if they are there at different times. I would even go so far as to theorize that two distinct objects can exist in the same place at the same time as long as there is a fifth dimension involved, -which I suspect there is. The Bible speaks about the unseen realm.
My point is that I don't think competition for space is an issue. God created space. I think He has plenty to go around. I think it is possible to be without competing with anything.

3. What did you find interesting and/or discussion worthy in this letter?

Like most, I liked the section on getting married for reasons other than "falling in love". I think Love Come Softly is one of the most enchanting stories I know and the main characters in that book married for practical considerations, not for love. (And yet, through marriage they fall in love anyway.)

In modern fairy tales the arranged marriage is looked down upon as old fashioned or oppressive. (Brave, anyone?) Very rarely does one ever think that a spouse picked especially for you by your loving parents who know you best might in fact be romantic. I'm working on a production of Fiddler on the Roof where this topic is studied in detail. While the younger generation in that play only marry for love, I am glad to see that at least in that play the older generation's ways (arranged marriages) are still treated respectfully. I think Do You Love Me? is without a doubt the most romantic song in the show.

A great fallacy that unfortunately some Christians believe is that "God is all I need", or more specifically, "God is the only relationship I need". After all, other humans will fail us, but God never will, right? But that is nowhere in the Bible. The fact that other humans will fail us is the reason we are to show grace and mercy to them, like God has shown us. It is not an excuse to avoid connection.

I'm glad to hear someone else say that. While our relationship with God should be the deepest and most important relationship in our lives, there is definitely a reason that God felt Man should not be alone. I'll have to study the Bible more closely in this matter.

I would disagree. Two objects can take up the same space, if they are there at different times. I would even go so far as to theorize that two distinct objects can exist in the same place at the same time as long as there is a fifth dimension involved, -which I suspect there is. The Bible speaks about the unseen realm.

I did write that with some hesitation. I meant it in the most simplistic sense. If person A is sitting on a stool, Person B can't sit on it. Person B can sit on person A but not the seat of the stool because that place is taken. Of course if Person A gets up person B can sit there. And yes, if you add other dimensions into the mix it is very likely that things would change.

In modern fairy tales the arranged marriage is looked down upon as old fashioned or oppressive. (Brave, anyone?) Very rarely does one ever think that a spouse picked especially for you by your loving parents who know you best might in fact be romantic. I'm working on a production of Fiddler on the Roof where this topic is studied in detail. While the younger generation in that play only marry for love, I am glad to see that at least in that play the older generation's ways (arranged marriages) are still treated respectfully. I think Do You Love Me? is without a doubt the most romantic song in the show.

In a lot of books and movies, arranged marriages are looked down upon (and not just current ones). If the marriage is arranged for good reasons (the parents knowing the children and that they are a good match in the relational sense and not just financial or status reasons), then it could be romantic and considering how many people who are "in love" make bad choices it might be better. I like Fiddler on the Roof a lot. It shows both sides of the story. I just finish a book and one of the characters said that Love is a decision. It makes sense.