@justin

Greta Gerwig is a talented writer and director, yes. I do expect that she may have to make some changes or even cut some things out.

She could end up doing something that wouldn't be necessary, that's true. Anything could happen. You never know. But now I am feeling optimistic that there is more news along the way.

 

Posted by: @justin_orman

I'm cautiously optimistic for a couple of reasons.

I have nothing to add to your post, other than to say Hello Justin!!! Good to see you again.  

For those who weren't around the forum 19ish years ago (which is going to be most of you), Justin and I did a reading group together before I became a mod. 

Justin, if you want to try to recover your old account, let Rose-Tree Dryad (@Rose) know. 🙂

Posted by: @fantasia

Posted by: @justin_orman

I'm cautiously optimistic for a couple of reasons.

I have nothing to add to your post, other than to say Hello Justin!!! Good to see you again.  

For those who weren't around the forum 19ish years ago (which is going to be most of you), Justin and I did a reading group together before I became a mod. 

Justin, if you want to try to recover your old account, let Rose-Tree Dryad (@Rose) know. 🙂

Was it really 19 years ago? 😲 For some reason I had it in my head that the first movie came out like 2007. Even longer than I remembered.

Since it seems like we're going to start seeing some new Narnia stuff again, I might drop in more. 

@justin yes, it's nice to see you again! Welcome back!

@coracle Long time, no chat. I've missed hanging out with everyone here, although I don't know how many people are still around that I actually knew at all. 😆 

😉...and back to our topic.

It's rather odd, after all this time in Lewisian Limbo, having something almost concrete to discuss. 

Posted by: @coracle

😉...and back to our topic.

It's rather odd, after all this time in Lewisian Limbo, having something almost concrete to discuss. 

Reminds me of when the forum first opened and all we knew back then was than Ann Peacock (who?) was announced as working on the screenplay. Then when Andrew Adamson was tapped to direct, the reaction was, "The Shrek guy??!!?" I remember a lot of speculation on who would play the witch and who would voice Aslan  

The whole news cycle leading up that movie was pretty funny in retrospect. Not too dissimilar from right now, truth be told, except this time we don't even know for sure which movie will be first, although I have to think LWW has to be first or second.

 

@coracle "almost concrete"... and yet still vague enough that it's exciting and frustrating at the same time!

For anyone who hasn't heard it yet, the Talking Beasts podcast has a new episode where Glumpuddle and Gymfan discuss the recent tantalising snippets of news, especially Scott Stuber's remark about Greta Gerwig working with Amy Pascal and Mark Gordon to "break the whole arc" of the Narnia series, and Gerwig's comment that she's currently "in the Wood between the Worlds". No firm conclusions on anything, unsurprisingly, but it's interesting to hear Gymfan and Glumpuddle go over some of the possibilities (including contradictory ones!) for what all this might mean.

I know I was fairly dismissive of The Barbie Movie earlier in this thread, but I thought it was funny how it made Icarus eager to see Greta Gerwig's take on Narnia and Skilletdude cynical about it, so I decided to read the screenplay which has now been posted online. (I never said I thought it was the worst movie ever or anything, just overhyped.) As I expected, I disagree with both parties.

Skilletdude's fear seemed to be that based on The Barbie Movie, Gerwig would portray the female characters as superior to the male characters. I'm not worried about this. I don't have much of an argument as to why I'm not worried. It's mainly a gut feeling. I think it's because TBM is a farce. (Not that there's anything inherently ridiculous about women being more competent than men. ) In a more serious story, I imagine Gerwig would be less interested in characters scoring points against each other and more interested in making all of them sympathetic. (Of course, it's possible that she does want Narnia to be a farce. After all, she said she's trying to decide which pool in the metaphorical Wood Between the World to jump into. Maybe that means she's deciding between the farce pool, the tragedy pool and the light drama pool. ) If anything, I'm worried that she'll go too far trying to make every character sympathetic. She seems interested in conflicts where no character is totally right, and no character is totally wrong. (I'd argue even The Barbie Movie isn't a total exception to this. For all the negative stereotypes about men it reinforces, Gerwig also seems to want all the major male characters in it to endear themselves to the audience

) I feel like she'd want to end with Miraz and Caspian reconciling, Rilian and the LOTGK parting as unlikely friends and Jadis and the Pevensies working out a deal so that half Narnia is winter all the time and the other half isn't.

Earlier in this thread, Icarus and Courtenay kept pointing out that each of the Narnia books has a female POV character with a couple of them evening have two and thought I was being overly cynical by saying that that wouldn't be feminist enough for someone of Gerwig's generation. Well, in The Barbie Movie, there's a character who's offended when someone expresses discomfort with everyone in charge of his business being male and he defends himself by saying that the company has had two women CEOs in its history. (This is the movie's best satirical joke IMO since it's the only one that sounds like something someone would say in real life.) The implication is clearly that two isn't an impressive number to Gerwig. And no Narnia book has more than two heroines while a few of them have as many as four male heroes. There are also only two Narnia queens (Susan and Lucy) we meet who aren't consorts and even they're under a high king. I'm not saying Gerwig would hate the Narnia books because of that. (She's recently gone on record as really appreciating them.) I imagine she'd describe them as fair for their day but to her that just goes to show how unfair that day was. TBM also implies she's against characters, male or female, who exist just to give the lead a love interest. This means she would not like Ramandu's Daugher or Queen Helen (and I imagine would have a problem with how the former is "fridged" in The Silver Chair.) That's at least two Narnia books she couldn't adapt well.

So, no, I don't feel at all guilty for what I wrote about Gerwig's views. Based on what she herself has written in a movie that's been praised for its honesty, I'd say I had her pretty much pegged. But there is something I do feel guilty about though: This post. I'm scared it makes it sound like I think only someone who agrees with C. S. Lewis on everything could do a good Narnia adaptation. If that was what I believed, I wouldn't be interested in Narnia adaptations at all. There's no one who agrees with C. S. Lewis on everything. He had a very specific set of influences and considered himself an ideological dinosaur back in his own day when he was a respected academic. I'd be shocked if any director or screenwriter out there completely shares his worldview. I wouldn't say Gerwig is worse than many of them as a choice for adapting Narnia. I just don't think she's better. If she makes a great adaptation, I imagine it will be by being untrue to herself. 

Well, I'm sure that Greta Gerwig recognizes that CS Lewis never intended Narnia to be sexist. I don't know if she has read the article Are The Chronicles of Narnia Sexist and Racist?, though she might find it insightful. Also, I don't think she should make it about boys vs girls, since CS Lewis never intended it that way. 

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

Also, I don't think she should make it about boys vs girls

I actually specifically wrote that I didn't think she would either. 

Posted by: @col-klink

Skilletdude's fear seemed to be that based on The Barbie Movie, Gerwig would portray the female characters as superior to the male characters. I'm not worried about this. I don't have much of an argument as to why I'm not worried. It's mainly a gut feeling. I think it's because TBM is a farce. (Not that there's anything inherently ridiculous about women being more competent than men. ) In a more serious story, I imagine Gerwig would be less interested in characters scoring points against each other and more interested in making all of them sympathetic.

 

Posted by: @col-klink

Earlier in this thread, Icarus and Courtenay kept pointing out that each of the Narnia books has a female POV character with a couple of them evening have two and thought I was being overly cynical by saying that that wouldn't be feminist enough for someone of Gerwig's generation. Well, in The Barbie Movie, there's a character who's offended when someone expresses discomfort with everyone in charge of his business being male and he defends himself by saying that the company has had two women CEOs in its history. (This is the movie's best satirical joke IMO since it's the only one that sounds like something someone would say in real life.) The implication is clearly that two isn't an impressive number to Gerwig. And no Narnia book has more than two heroines while a few of them have as many as four male heroes. There are also only two Narnia queens (Susan and Lucy) we meet who aren't consorts and even they're under a high king. I'm not saying Gerwig would hate the Narnia books because of that. (She's recently gone on record as really appreciating them.) I imagine she'd describe them as fair for their day but to her that just goes to show how unfair that day was. TBM also implies she's against characters, male or female, who exist just to give the lead a love interest. This means she would not like Ramandu's Daugher or Queen Helen (and I imagine would have a problem with how the former is "fridged" in The Silver Chair.) That's at least two Narnia books she couldn't adapt well.

Some interesting points, and I definitely don't want to get into a debate with you or with anyone else here. I would just say that the way I see it, it's not necessarily helpful to look at the few movies Gerwig has directed so far (especially Barbie) and go "See, Gerwig likes this and this, and she doesn't like that, that or that, so therefore she won't like so-and-so in Narnia and she'll definitely want to change such-and-such and she just wouldn't be able to get this or that right." The fact is: we don't know yet.

I haven't seen Barbie (it's just called Barbie, by the way, not The Barbie Movie), but I'm aware it is, as you point out, a farce — deliberately satirical — and it's also an original screenplay, written, as far as I know, by Gerwig herself. There's a big difference between making a film of one's own original screenplay (even if it is based on an established "brand"), and making an adaptation of an existing novel, especially a well-known classic. Gerwig has, of course, done exactly that as well, with Little Women. I haven't read that book or seen any of the screen versions of it, but from what I've heard from others, plenty of people liked Gerwig's adaptation — it sounds like she managed to remain faithful to the book overall while taking a slightly different angle on some things. That to me is reasonably promising as far as an adaptation of Narnia is concerned. If Gerwig had gone and done something totally iconoclastic with another classic, I'd have very little hope of her producing a satisfactory version of Narnia. But as it is, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and find out what she's actually going to do with Narnia before I judge whether or not she's the right person for the job. Her very few direct statements about the books and Lewis himself so far have been rather vague, but they're all positive and appreciative, so that's a good start.

I think what it comes down to, though — we may as well come straight out and say it — is that most of us here on NarniaWeb are Christians of one sort or another, and the thing we love the most about the Chronicles is that they have Christianity (and a truly awesome representation of Christ) at their heart. And the biggest thing most of us are worried about is that any adaptation of Narnia (Gerwig's or any future ones) might leave out that essential Christianity, or heavily downplay it, or put in things that are contrary to it (or at least to the particular version of Christianity that we follow). That's the unfortunate possibility. But again, we can only wait and find out. In the meantime, at least nothing is going to change the books themselves*, and that's enough for me.

* Unless HarperCollins (the current publisher) decides to jump on the currently popular bandwagon and bring out new bowdlerised editions to suit modern sensibilities, like Hachette has been doing with Enid Blyton and Penguin with Roald Dahl — although there was such a backlash against the latter that they quickly announced they would be keeping the original texts in print as well. But I haven't heard of any rumours of this being planned for Narnia, and in any case, we're close enough to the expiration of Lewis's copyright — 10 more years in the UK — that I'm not sure the publishers would even bother now.

Posted by: @courtenay

Some interesting points, and I definitely don't want to get into a debate with you or with anyone else here. I would just say that the way I see it, it's not necessarily helpful to look at the few movies Gerwig has directed so far (especially Barbie) and go "See, Gerwig likes this and this, and she doesn't like that, that or that, so therefore she won't like so-and-so in Narnia and she'll definitely want to change such-and-such and she just wouldn't be able to get this or that right." The fact is: we don't know yet.

I get that you don't want to debate, and I don't really either, it being the time for peace and goodwill and everything, but I can't resist asking if you sometimes recommend your friends avoid books or movies that you yourself like because what you know of your friends makes you think they won't like them. That's all I think I'm doing with Gerwig and Narnia. 

Plus, you know, my post was responding to earlier posts that were making hypotheses about how Gerwig would handle Narnia based on her most recent film. It wasn't exactly my idea. So, is it OK to say optimistic things about Gerwig based on her movies but not OK to say pessimistic things based on them? That doesn't seem fair. 

There's something related that I'd like to say. (It's not directed at Courtenay.) Unfortunately, it's about politics which are a no-go area on this forum. And, honestly, I love that politics are against the rules on Narniaweb. Not only do internet political discussions cause unnecessary emotional pain but to me, they also get boring after a while. I feel like I can predict what everyone will say once I know their party. But what I want to write here doesn't have to do with the content of political beliefs and I do believe it's something Greta Gerwig fans need to read. So I'd appreciate it if the mods allowed me to post this. If they really feel like it's too provocative, could they just delete the second half of this comment and leave the nonpolitical first half? Please? 

It strikes me as silly and, if I'm honest, rather entitled when Greta Gerwig fans get mad at fans of the Narnia books who say they don't want to see her adaptations of them because of her political/social beliefs. I mean, don't get me wrong, a lot of those book fans express themselves obnoxiously but if you look behind the obnoxiousness, the basic stance is prudent and reasonable. Greta Gerwig doesn't want anyone with beliefs that oppose her to enjoy her movies. That doesn't mean they never do enjoy them, of course. Great art can often transcend its target audience. But I see no reason to believe that's what Gerwig wants. It's very strange to me how her fans praise her for being all independent and not caring if she offends people and then get mad at those same people for assuming they wouldn't like her movies. If she were a standard Hollywood director who, whatever their own beliefs, tried not to offend people on either side of the political aisle too much, it would be different. As it is, the only people who owe Gerwig anything beyond basic courtesy are her target audience. 

Posted by: @col-klink

but I can't resist asking if you sometimes recommend your friends avoid books or movies that you yourself like because what you know of your friends makes you think they won't like them. That's all I think I'm doing with Gerwig and Narnia. 

Not quite sure what you're getting at there, sorry. Of course I don't generally recommend books or films to friends or family who I know aren't into that kind of story or genre or theme or whatever, but I can't see how that fits into this particular discussion. Again, because we don't yet know what Gerwig is going to do with Narnia, it doesn't make much sense (to me, anyway) for anyone to either go overboard with enthusiasm for her Narnia project or be turned off it with disgust.

Plus, you know, my post was responding to earlier posts that were making hypotheses about how Gerwig would handle Narnia based on her most recent film. It wasn't exactly my idea. So, is it OK to say optimistic things about Gerwig based on her movies but not OK to say pessimistic things based on them? That doesn't seem fair. 

Oh, sorry, no, I wasn't meaning to come across like that, and I apologise that what I wrote could obviously be interpreted that way. I think I was really just responding to very decisive statements like "That's at least two Narnia books she couldn't adapt well" — as you said about SC and, I think, MN (as the reference was to Ramandu's daughter and Queen Helen being there only to provide a love interest).

What I meant was, an absolute conclusion like that — "she couldn't adapt these books well", based only on vague assumptions (which are all we have to go by) — seems a very long bow to draw. Maybe "I'm not sure she would handle this part well" or "I'm guessing she might want to make some changes to these characters and their roles" would make more sense.

I wouldn't necessarily object if Gerwig (or any other director) does give some of the female characters a larger role, provided it's still consistent with each character's general nature and doesn't make any major change to the plot. For example, I wasn't upset in Peter Jackson's LOTR when Arwen, rather than Glorfindel, rescued Frodo at the ford on the way to Rivendell, because it made sense to give Aragorn's love interest something significant to do instead of having her be not much more than a cypher in the background. And in a stage play I once saw of LWW, they had Mrs Beaver meeting the four Pevensies in the woods and take them back to the Beavers' house where Mr Beaver is the one doing things around the home when they arrive. I quite liked that little role swap, since it didn't affect the plot and it meant there was no chance of anyone complaining that Mrs Beaver is a sexist stereotype (one of the unfair criticisms that gets levelled at the book, as we've discussed before)!! There were a lot of other things about that stage version that I didn't like, but that wasn't one of them...

But what I want to write here doesn't have to do with the content of political beliefs and I do believe it's something Greta Gerwig fans need to read. So I'd appreciate it if the mods allowed me to post this. If they really feel like it's too provocative, could they just delete the second half of this comment and leave the nonpolitical first half? Please? 

It strikes me as silly and, if I'm honest, rather entitled when Greta Gerwig fans get mad at fans of the Narnia books who say they don't want to see her adaptations of them because of her political/social beliefs.

I'm not a mod, so I can't judge whether or not this is an OK topic for discussion, but I'm again a bit curious, because I haven't seen any Greta Gerwig fans getting mad at Narnia fans who don't want to see her adaptations because of her political/social beliefs. Is that happening a lot on social media? (I don't do social media very much.) I certainly haven't seen it happening very much here on NarniaWeb. There have been a few throwaway "Oh no, she's going to ruin Narnia" comments under the NarniaWeb news posts, but that hasn't happened to any great extent in the forum community here.

Greta Gerwig doesn't want anyone with beliefs that oppose her to enjoy her movies.

There's another oddly strong statement that I'm wondering about. Do we know that for sure? I mean, I don't know much about Gerwig at all (I'm not a huge watcher of movies in general, but that's just me, nothing personal against her or anyone!) — but has she actually said straight out "I don't want people who disagree with my beliefs to enjoy my movies"? That would be a strangely dogmatic stance for any filmmaker to take, apart from those who are deliberately making movies that are highly political and partisan by their very nature. Most mainstream directors — or directors who want to make it big in the mainstream — go for films that have a wide potential audience, including those who might assume they didn't want to watch this kind of film, or a film directed by this kind of person. And Narnia is already a well-known and widely popular "brand", even among those who aren't interested in the underlying Christian themes, so it wouldn't make sense to aim it solely at a niche audience of "only those who agree with my own political beliefs".

But once again, we really can't tell what will happen until Gerwig actually does something with Narnia. As it is, we haven't yet heard of any comments from her that would really set the alarm bells clanging for me or most other Narnia fans. If she started saying things like "Of course, we'll need to make some changes to the original stories to suit our modern world..." or "I definitely want to give the female characters much bigger roles, because Lewis was a stuffy old fogey who didn't want girls and women to do anything too exciting or important", or "The explicitly Christian themes are definitely out, because we need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible" — well, that would be a different matter. But that hasn't happened, so far...

Posted by: @courtenay

I haven't seen any Greta Gerwig fans getting mad at Narnia fans who don't want to see her adaptations because of her political/social beliefs. Is that happening a lot on social media? (I don't do social media very much.) I certainly haven't seen it happening very much here on NarniaWeb. There have been a few throwaway "Oh no, she's going to ruin Narnia" comments under the NarniaWeb news posts, but that hasn't happened to any great extent in the forum community here.

I haven't seen that in this forum either. But earlier in this thread, Icarus complained about all the people on social media, mainly conservative Christians apparently, who were dismissing the idea of Netflix and Gerwig doing good Narnia adaptations. I replied much the same thing that you did, that that wasn't fair to the people he was actually conversing with on this forum. He said he was talking more about Twitter, etc. I feel like if it was OK for him to do that, it was also OK for me to bring up the flipside. 

Posted by: @courtenay

There's another oddly strong statement that I'm wondering about. Do we know that for sure?

I feel like her work speaks for herself and you're not really interested in watching all her movies, so we're at an impasse. (Please don't feel like you have to watch all her movies or all the movies of any screenwriter adapting Narnia. I'm sure there are better uses of your time.) IMO, the burden of proof lies on her fans. If they can give me an example of her refraining from offending people who are on the opposite side of the political aisle from her, I'll retract my statement. (But please just PM me the examples. This forum isn't supposed to be about politics.) 

I have a good example I could give but I feel bad about using it because it will encourage some people to avoid this movie of hers and I actually really like it. (Well, the script for it anyway.) But, on the other hand, the fact that everyone who's been reading this thread knows it's something I admire a great deal means I can't be accused of misrepresenting it out of spite. 

The book, Little Women, is one of the few things in my country (the USA) that both rightwing people and leftwing people both enjoy. Of course, nothing is universally beloved and there are some rightwing and leftwing Americans who don't enjoy it. Still, I think it's fair to say that it has appeal for both. Basically, if you're a lower middle class American, you can relate to something the book depicts, whatever your political philosophy. And in these divisive times, I think that's nice. 

Gerwig's adaptation of Little Women draws on the text for much of its dialogue but inevitably there are some "bridging" scenes that had to be original and three out of five times, the original dialogue is endorsing a leftwing social stance that would alienate rightwing viewers. (Let me stress that all of this original dialogue is well written.) So, it seems like Gerwig's goal in adaptations is to take books that both leftwing people and rightwing people enjoy (like The Chronicles of Narnia?) and make sure that only leftwing people enjoy them. (If anyone reading this is a rightwing fan of the book who resents leftwing people, please don't boycott the adaptation. After all, if they don't want you to enjoy it, you can think of doing so as a way of defying them. )

EDIT: I actually see saying that she only wants her movies to be enjoyed by people who align with her politically as a compliment. Filmmakers who believe their movies can change people's minds about social issues are doomed to disappointment if you ask me. What with the internet, everyone has read all the arguments on both sides of every issue and has come to an unshakeable conviction, whatever that may be. They're not going to change their minds because they see a random movie. Movies with political themes work better when they're just about making viewers who already agree with them feel less alone.