My question is regarding physical contact. My dad has recently banned my boyfriend and I from any and all physical contact except for a parting "gentle embrace", because it's Biblical

Nioniel, if you're old enough to be away from home going to a university, I'm having trouble understanding how your father thinks it's appropriate to lay down these types of absolute laws. My advice is to disregard everything he says and calmly explain that you are an adult capable of making your own decisions.

The best course of action is to move in with your boyfriend so that you don't have to follow your dad's rules.

Ithilwen, excellent post, mate. So well written. Extra-biblical rules are another form of legalism.

Nioniel, run from temptation (or don't put yourself in those situations to begin with), have godly boundaries (through strength in Christ) and establish them early. For everything else, you can only wish to honour God with your choices, so do what you can in that respect. That should be the real motivation not what many tend to say: If I'm in a relationship, how much can I get away with sexually, without it being sex?

Moonlight, now I know you're trolling. It's not wise to 'disregard everything he says' but to take into account everything he says and respectfully explain that 'you are an adult capable of making your own decisions'.
Also, don't tell a Christian to move in with her boyfriend, that's just stupid and immoral.

I will agree that that was beautifully said all the way through Ithilwen.

While I do agree with you too Warrior I wouldn't go too far with calling Moonlight a troll, for one it's not that nice and it's coming from her opinion.

Couples who are dating I agree should not get a place together for themselves, I would consider a same sex roommate to help with incomes to become independent without having to live along with your parents rules or get a unit that you can afford on your own.

In my opinion it's better to move in with a partner depending on your commitment like: Say this guy is planning to propose to his long time girlfriend of 5 years and they are both planning to get an apartment or a house together I find that morally acceptable. At least it is acceptable in my religion.

My cousin has been dating his girlfriend since high school and for years now and they have a house where they live together now and he is going to propose to her.

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Thank you all for your posts! I've enjoyed reading them all. I've been really aching to discuss this issue with people that either won't entirely oppose my dad's views or entirely agree with him

That said, faith without works is dead, and so as a personal conviction, it's a good idea to establish boundaries that you won't step over with your boyfriend, and mutually agree on them.

Try and find a way that you can show your dad that you respect his wishes and at the same time you can figure out where the line is for you that you and your boyfriend.

See, here's the thing. We know where the line is. We did decide on boundaries immediately. They were pretty good, conservative, careful boundaries too, in my professional have-been-reading-Christian-dating-books-for-years opinion Then two weeks into our official relationship my dad was like, so by the way you guys aren't allowed to touch AT ALL. Which is a little bit ridiculous, because we'd been sitting pretty cozy with each other for quite a while by that time. We are both committed to having a pure relationship and respecting our boundaries to ensure that, but my dad has gone from us having reasonable boundaries to having no boundaries at all, as in, the boundary has nothing in it. By having a complete no-touching approach we are ideally avoiding all situations that might cause us to fall into temptation. So says my dad.

ericnovak, my dad's opinion stems from these verses (and many years of life experience and he is basically the person most familiar with the Bible that I know)

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

Honestly, I agree with my dad so much now. It took about a week of research and lectures and talks but I agree with him. I just don't like what I am agreeing with It makes a lot of sense for a dating couple to refrain from touching until they are engaged/married. When dating, there is a very low level of commitment. You may be committed, but you still have the freedom to break it off if you can't see marriage working out in the future. Before marriage (or engagement, when you've each made a promise to marry the other), youthful passions should be fled from so as to avoid any hint of sexual immorality. Why place yourself in a situation or give yourself the physical freedom to stir up youthful lusts? My dad's views make SO much sense. Only problem is, he thinks holding hands and the like is stirring up youthful lusts, whereas I don't think so. Kissing I can understand. That seems more sexual in nature and more the sort of thing that would lead to making out/stirring up youthful lusts than simply innocently holding hands. So for this reason I wouldn't want to kiss my boyfriend. Also I think the idea is a little terrifying anyways

To those who told me that I am an adult and should tell my dad that I should be able to make my own decisions... that is a very feminist, modern view Biblically, I am under my dad's authority until I get married at which point my authority is my husband... I personally think my dad should be understanding of the fact that I am older now and live away from home for most of the year but that is not up to me to decide. He is pretty good about that actually, it is just this one instance of him exercising his authority that gives me trouble.

Also consider that, even if you touch someone like you would a sibling, you don't think of him as a sibling, and so the touch might end up feeling... different than you expected.

This is very true. Because we are dating and attracted to each other, physical touch is different than with my close friends or siblings. However, my "acts of physical affections vs acts of physical desire" argument that's really the only argument I have going for me.

I read in one article to consider each act of physical affection within a family setting. If you would be okay doing it with your sibling without it being weird for you sexually, then it is okay for you to do with your girlfriend/boyfriend while dating. I've given this example to my dad, and he was trying to tell me that while I might sit close to a close female friend and would want to do the same with my boyfriend (because I like him in a far different way) I wouldn't do the same with a guy friend that I don't like romantically. This is true, but I wouldn't because I'm not comfortable with my guy friends like that - I don't even think it's appropriate for me to foster close friendships with guys in the same way a girl might foster close friendships with girls. So of course I wouldn't sit close with a guy friend because I'm not comfortable with them in that way, but since I am working on a close friendship with my boyfriend, I am naturally more comfortable with him because he's the closest guy friend I've ever had so far. I'm not even sure where I'm going with this anymore, perhaps I'm just trying to get my thoughts out there Does this all make sense?

Side note: My boyfriend in his previous relationship had issues with boundaries. I realize the question regarding physical contact is not "how far is too far" but rather more like, "How can I honour my boyfriend and keep our relationship pure and holy?". So, in this instance, would severely limiting physical contact be honouring him since it has been a problem for him in the past? He's told me that he wants to do things right with me, but he's also said that he's having a hard time keeping his hands off me since my dad made this rule. It makes me kind of conflicted. Do I fight for us to be allowed to have some amount of physical contact or do I just let this slide and go along with none at all? Which is more honouring to him and will help him more? I really don't know, AND, I like holding his hand and the like and I'm fighting for this for me as well, and I'm already struggling enough with the initial idea of him having a lack of boundaries in that relationship. Life is complicated.

To those who told me that I am an adult and should tell my dad that I should be able to make my own decisions... that is a very feminist, modern view Biblically, I am under my dad's authority until I get married at which point my authority is my husband.

Just wanted to address this real quick. While I agree with many of the classic Feminism causes from long ago (i.e. that women should have the right to vote), I disagree with modern feminism almost entirely. Feminism happens to be one of my pet peeves. If I believed the Bible supported the idea of women being under their father's authority until marriage, I would certainly be following it, and no modern ideas or changes in culture would change my views. I take scripture very seriously. I just wanted to make that clear, if anyone misunderstood my post.

Other than that, I'm not sure what advice to give you, Nioniel. I'm really glad you and your boyfriend set up boundaries beforehand. That shows a responsibility not very many couples have. And I am sorry you're having frustrations with your dad. I hope my post helped you in some way when it comes to ideas of conversations you can have with him. Regardless, I will pray for you and your family that all goes well.

~Riella

I am a person you could say dabbles in feminism, I believe in equal rights but I think once your 18(or what ever it is in your country) you are legally and should be able to do what you like. Saying that I don't really have a controlling father. Mum made more of the choices about what we can and cannot do. Now mum makes suggestions of what I shouldn't do but she wouldn't really stop me. I have grown up in a atheist/agnostic family however so it is a very different lifestyle to most on here. On most issues me and dad and mum see eye to eye spare a few issues.

Nioniel, I've been pondering the same sort of thing myself as of late Also been struggling with that phase of I'm starting to become more independent, but parents haven't fully let go yet. Honestly, I haven't come to a conclusion about where those boundaries are, but I would like to bring up a few points stemming from your comments regarding the parent/child aspect...

First off while I agree with Ithilwen it may not necessarily be rebellion, I would suggest you ask yourself if the reason you dislike this rule so much is in fact rebellious in nature... Do you want to disobey because you are at that stage where you're trying to get more independence? Basically, I think it is worth considering why you dislike this... If it is simply Biblical based then that is no big deal (comparatively speaking ), but if it is in rebellion... that raises some red flags to me. The Lord calls on us to honor our father and mother, to obey them. I know it's frustrating to be going through that stage when entering into a new phase of independence in your life... I'm going through it myself... but you must be wary of disrespecting your parents... this in itself is a sin. Now this does not mean it's wrong to disagree with them at all... as Ithy pointed out they to are human, and you may be right some of the time. But you should not disrespect them, and disobey them in frustration because they aren't giving you your independence... for that in itself is unbiblical. It may feel like he is being stubborn and refuses to compromise, but you MUST talk with him about it... If you are uncomfortable with it, try discussing it with him and don't let yourself get frustrated... but ask him questions. Let him know that you are not comfortable with this rule... but first ask yourself why... it may have nothing to do with contact at all, but rather the nature in which the rule was imposed... I'd ask your Dad to talk about it... I'd keep asking him to talk about it... not necessarily to lift regulations, but so you two can come to an understanding between yourselves... try to understand where he's coming from... if you think it's flawed point out why and ask him to please listen to you make your case then when you are finished ask him to point out what h disagrees with... Above all ask him to pray with you that you can come to an agreement God is happy with and that you all are comfortable with. But I would use this as an opportunity to get to know your father better and to show that you are mature enough to handle a disagreement, and that you respect him

Wow. Haven't posted in forever!
I have a problem that's been bothering me and I wanted to get some perspective from fellow Christians.
I've been single for the majority of my life (and I'm twenty three). I guess I'm a bit what you might call romantically inept...I've had dates and one accidental boyfriend of two months, but on the whole I prefer to be single. I joke that I'm in a committed, monogamous relationship with the book I'm writing and married to my work as a CNA.
Any way, this guy that I know slightly (he's worked at the nearest Taco Bell for two years) asked me out. I said yes and we swapped phone numbers. In between him asking me out on Tuesday and the date on Thursday, I received 200+ text messages from him. Random chit-chat, details of his personal life, etc. I'm getting rather tired of hearing my phone beep!
Then there was the date.
He had a great time. I did not. I mean, he's a sweet guy and all, but I just didn't feel any kind of attraction.
He is rather obviously over the moon and I'm...not. I agreed to a second date but if I still feel the same way after it, I'm think I'm gonna have to find a way to let him down gently. And I really don't want to hurt his feelings because he's a sweet guy and just so obviously excited about me.
Am I just being to picky and hard to please?

Am I just being to picky and hard to please?

Not at all. If you're not attracted to him, then nothing can (or rather, should) come of it. If you do continue it, you'd be doing yourself wrong, and perhaps doing him even more wrong.

Think of it from his point of view. Imagine being in a relationship with someone (or even married, if that's the guy's eventual goal), and then finding out that person didn't really like you that much, and just stuck with you because they were afraid of being too picky. It wouldn't end very well. Unrequited love is just as painful - perhaps more so - if the person is going out with you despite their lack of feeling for you.

Relationships are for two people who genuinely adore and love each other. They're not something you have to have, that if there's no one around that you like, you simply settle for what is available. I think it's definitely one of those things where it's best to take an "All or Nothing!" attitude. If there's no one out there you genuinely love, stay single (at least for now). And most of all, adopt the attitude of Jane Austen's heroine of Pride and Prejudice:

I am determined that only the deepest love will induce me into matrimony.

Good luck with everything!

~Riella

Avra, I've never dated before but I do understand the guy's perspective in this situation. As guys we don't want the girl beating around the bush, we want her to be blunt with us, but in a caring way. "Sorry, this isn't going to work out. I'm not attracted to you" - that works far better than a second date when you're not interested. It sends him the wrong message and makes you feel bad for not feeling attracted to him. Please, just tell him straight up that you're not attracted to him. He'll be hurt for awhile but it's a lot better than him being psychologically manipulated/strung along because the girl is too 'caring' to let him know. I'm not accusing you of this, but it can quickly head in the direction if you're not careful.
Be honest. Good luck!

Thanks for the great advice, guys. Sometimes you just need to hear it from others...

I don't believe I have ever posted on this thread before. If I have, I don't remember when I did or what I said.

I would be in the category of adults who have never been in a relationship before. However, I am only nineteen years old and I am not really anxious to be in a relationship right now. My older sister, however, is getting married a week from Friday! Eeek! I can't wait and I can't believe this date is already upon us all.

Looking over this thread, I'm really encouraged by everything you all have to say. I think it's so cool that there are a lot of people who actually think deeply about this kind of thing instead of just casually and somewhat blindly follow the social norms. However, there are a few things that I find quite puzzling on here...and maybe it's just a terminology thing. Let me explain and see what you all think.

The first thing that I find a little bit odd is the concept of attraction. Not that I don't think attraction between a young man and woman is a very real thing, I'm just not sure how much of an instigator it should be for our dating/courtship/marriage relationships. What do you all mean when you use the word attraction? Do you mean romantic feelings? Or do you mean simple admiration and realization of someone's good qualities? Because one sounds exceptionally relative, exclusive, ambiguous, and...well, dangerous. And the other seems far more general, practical, and objective to me.

When talking with my sister and her fiancee and when discussing relationships with my parents, I have never once heard them council us to base our decisions and judgments of young godly men on whether or not we think we are attracted to a guy. They have always counseled us to base our relationship decisions off of our friendships with the young man in question, whether or not we are compatible together, whether we can work and balance each others' strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately, the question of whether or not we could marry such and such a young man is based on our friendship, not whether we feel attracted to him or not. Marriage, I believe, is primarily based off of a mutual love for Jesus Christ and a reciprocating friendship, not off of romantic feelings. I think that romantic feelings should be the result of a committed relationship, not the instigator.

Am I just stumbling over terminology? Because, like I said, this is definitely not a concept or a term that I have heard frequented in my family. I have heard some of my Christian friends talk this way, but it always makes me a little bit uncomfortable. We will be discussing relationships with each other and someone will say that love is a decision and not based on how we feel and then in the next sentence say that a certain relationship attempt of their's didn't work out because they didn't feel like they were attracted to someone or he didn't feel like he was attracted to her. It just seems slightly contradictory in my mind, but maybe that's just because I don't really understand what they mean...

Let me know what you all think, because I might just be clueless and if that's the case, I would appreciate the input.

Thank you and God bless!

The first thing that I find a little bit odd is the concept of attraction. Not that I don't think attraction between a young man and woman is a very real thing, I'm just not sure how much of an instigator it should be for our dating/courtship/marriage relationships. What do you all mean when you use the word attraction? Do you mean romantic feelings? Or do you mean simple admiration and realization of someone's good qualities? Because one sounds exceptionally relative, exclusive, ambiguous, and...well, dangerous. And the other seems far more general, practical, and objective to me.

When it comes to attraction vs. friendship/admiration in romantic relationships, it's important to remember that it's not an either/or situation. It's both/and.

When teaching about relationships, most people stress the importance of the friendship side and the inner, spiritual qualities of the person, because many young people today are going around dating whomever they find to be "hot", regardless of who the person is on the inside. In other words, many young people are basing their relationships on attraction alone. This is what's dangerous. It's very important to find someone who is spiritually grounded, responsible, kind, loving, etc. However, that doesn't mean the attraction aspect should be completely ignored.

What do I mean when I use the word attraction? Do I mean romantic feelings, or do I mean simple admiration and realization of someone's good qualities? I mean both! If someone has romantic feelings for someone, but that person doesn't have any good qualities that the other admires, then that relationship isn't based on much, is it? But reversely, if there is a guy whose inner qualities you admire, but you don't have any romantic feelings for him, then how is your relationship with him going to be any different than the one you have with your pastor, your brother, your cousins, your guy friends, or even your girl friends? There are lots of guys whose inner qualities I admire. There are lots of guys who I believe would make perfect husbands. But they won't end up being mine! Because I don't feel that way towards them. They're just friends. We need to find someone whose inner qualities we admire, but toward whom we feel something special, something different than we do toward other people we know.

Not all feeling is shallow. Just because some people abuse feeling doesn't make feeling in itself a bad thing. It's not feelings themselves that make people shallow, irresponsible, or dangerous. It's when people follow only their feelings, in situations where their feelings are leading them down the wrong path; that's when it's dangerous, irresponsible, and shallow. Feelings are God-given things, and they have a purpose. They aren't there just to serve as some test or temptation that we must overcome.

Take for example physical attraction and outward looks. Everyone knows that "looks don't matter" and "it's what's on the inside that counts". People who base their relationships only on who they find physically attractive, of course, are doing it wrong and are being shallow. You wouldn't want to be like them. But at the same time, if you asked your boyfriend/fiance/husband if he thinks you're beautiful, and he answered, "No, I think you're rather ugly/average looking. But what's on the inside is great", then (although I'm sure you'd be glad he likes what's on the inside of you) I doubt you would find it a satisfactory answer. No one wants to be considered ugly or average looking by the person with whom they're in a relationship. And no one wants to consider the person with whom they're in a relationship to be ugly/average looking, either. Physical attraction alone shouldn't be the basis for the relationship. But it still has to be there for there to be a proper relationship. Again, God created it for a reason.

In the end, it is not just one thing that forms the basis of a relationship. It is all things working together to create something meaningful. And if you take one aspect away - even if it's an aspect that's often taught to be unimportant - the whole thing starts to come apart. When it comes to the different kinds of love and attraction - physical, emotional, spiritual - they all have a purpose and are necessary.

~Riella

I think Ithy pretty much nailed it in her well thought out response.

I would like to add that yes, you should consider what the person you are interested in is like on the inside (ie, are they a christian? Are they a "good person"? etc) but don't get too stuck on that aspect and completely shun anyone you find physically attractive. As Ithy said above, both sides work together for a common goal. Just focusing on one or the other can be a problematic and lopsided outlook on things.

On a side note: CONGRATS to your elder sister and her soon-to-be husband!