congratulations n_a_h!!! may God bless both of you

Congratulations. If I may I pass on a little something I heard awhile back.

Do you know why did God used Adam's rib to make Eve?
God didn't use a bone from the head, for she was not to stand over him.
God didn't use a bone from the foot, that he should stand over her.
God used a rib from man's side, under his arm, that he may shield her, and in his times of weakness she could support him.

May God richly bless you both on this journey you have embarked upon.

Congratulations, guys! Wishing you the best on your exciting, new journey. Remain in Christ and build your marriage on him. Be blessed!

Congrats, narnian_at_heart!

I too have a bit of an announcement to make:

I asked my girlfriend to marry me on November 30th. She said yes. We will be getting married in July.

Fantastic, Andrew! God bless you two now and always.

That is wonderful news on your marriage, narnian_at_heart, and to you, Andrew, on your engagement. Thanks for dropping by to let us know!

"Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually". ~Psalm 105:4

After all the theorizing and talk of dating and non-dating and courtship and card houses, I began to pursue my best friend July 11th, 2012. It was nothing like anything I had ever thought it would be, it didn't turn out the ways I expected, and it was 100x harder than anything I've ever done before, so I decided to make it last longer, and I asked her to marry me on February 26th. She said yes, and we're getting married this September!

Here's a picture for you all:

I'm really excited for this new season of life.

-Eric

Eric! I'm really, really happy for you and your fiancee! God's blessings on the next few months of planning!

And we are really excited for you too, Eric! That is such wonderful news.

You described relationship very well. It is indeeed hard work, but oh so worth it! Such an adventure. Especially when God is at the centre.

So I have emerged from the very depths of lurkerdom (which is where one does not even lurk at all) to come to attempt to find some wise words and advice. I have been "talking" to a boy for quite some time now and when I came home for the summer from university in another city we decided to make things official and are now dating... as in we are now close friends evaluating each other for the possibility of marriage

So! My question is regarding physical contact. My dad has recently banned my boyfriend and I from any and all physical contact except for a parting "gentle embrace", because it's Biblical It's not even that big of a deal. I can deal with my boyfriend and I not being ever allowed to touch wile dating, but it is the rebellious part of me that dislikes submitting to my father's authority. He says that physical contact between men and women is inappropriate except in the case of marriage relationships and engagement because it is a covenantal relationship, whereas a dating relationship can easily be broken off if things are not working out. It makes a lot of sense, and he is very Biblically backed up, but I hate it. I like being able to touch people to show them I care and I know my boyfriend is working really hard to respect my dad's rule. I personally think that acts of affection are fine within a dating relationship. Acts of desire are not fine. The way I read it in one article is to compare it with a father's love for his daughter - he holds her hand and puts his arm around her and snuggles her just to show that he cares for her and loves her, not for any sexual enjoyment. I think that we should be allowed to touch in a way that we would be okay touching our respective siblings. If he would be okay with putting his arm around his sister to show her he cares about her without it being something sexual, then by all means he should be allowed to put his arm around me. I touch my close friends and my siblings all the time to show affection and think that I should be allowed to do the same with my boyfriend, and he to me, so long as the physical touch is limited to acts of affection and restricted when it comes to acts of desire. Obviously where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion, but I think there should be guidelines rather than just a strict zero contact policy. And I do not think that my opinion is un-Biblical. My dad has told me to "come at him" about this So basically I would appreciate educated, Biblical opinions on this subject and if anyone can help me intelligently (and by intelligently I mean Biblically with a focus on a covenental perspective) argue my case with my dad so that my boyfriend and I can hold hands without sinning, that would be super

Nioniel,

I have two thoughts on this subject, but neither is going to be a biblical case that you can bring in front of your dad to simply debate with him and change his mind, though I would be interested in reading the verses where physical contact is actually prohibited by scripture.

No physical contact doesn't change your heart. If there is physical attraction in this relationship, then you two will be strongly drawn together. You will always have the potential to sin, regardless of if you're holding hands or not. The fact is that you will desire each other. Applying a rule that controls your physical body but doesn't connect to your heart, does nothing to solve the problem: We're sinful people who need Jesus.

That said, faith without works is dead, and so as a personal conviction, it's a good idea to establish boundaries that you won't step over with your boyfriend, and mutually agree on them.

In my relationship, I naively assumed that I wouldn't struggle with sexual purity (I never had before), so my fiancee and I didn't establish many physical boundaries. This ended up being a pretty big mistake for us and we struggled with purity because of it. I wish I had been a little more proactive in establishing boundaries that we both agreed on when we first started dating.

Congratulations eric!!

Nionel, I can't offer any Bible verses, but I do agree with eric. Being in my early 30s and single, I've watched many friends get married. All of them that made it down the aisle are ones who put a limit on their physical contact prior to marriage. They spent much time praying about it together and in advance of their relationships and set the boundaries with their parents and with each other.

Three of them had their first kiss at the alter. One of them, her first kiss was upon him asking the question and the second was at the alter. All four of them are still happily married.

So the main thing I would suggest, is pray about it. Have your boyfriend pray about it. Go to both sets of your parents and pray about it. If your dad still feels strongly about it, then respect his wishes. But try coming back with a prayer plan and find something that works for y'all as a family and find those boundaries together. By setting those boundaries, you get to learn a lot more about each other and can come to respect each other in ways you may not see now.

Try and find a way that you can show your dad that you respect his wishes and at the same time you can figure out where the line is for you that you and your boyfriend.

Congratulations ericnovak! Praying for you and the future Mrs. E. Novak, hope every things going okay getting ready!

Hi Nioniel, I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to share my little thoughts on the subject that might be able to help you out.

He says that physical contact between men and women is inappropriate except in the case of marriage relationships and engagement because it is a covenantal relationship, whereas a dating relationship can easily be broken off if things are not working out.

True. But to me, an engagement is also shaky ground. It's a time period were you're "together" in the world's point of view, but not God's. You haven't been joined at the soul, by God, before God.

Also, the way I've looked at it is that the whole topic of "How much is too much?" can seem like a hard one, but it really isn't. We can say that the Bible doesn't give specifics on the dating or engagement period. But what we do know is that He said multiple times that:

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” *

He's also told us to stay away from the temptation to sin. And while we are to treat each other as brothers & sisters in the Lord, courting/dating/engaged or otherwise, I think that that was meant in the spiritual sense. Physically speaking, he/she is not your brother/sister. So you love and encourage each other in the Lord like you would a sibling.

But even if you're 100% correct, I think you're main question to ask is are you willing to submit to your fathers authority, even if you don't agree? It may be biblically correct to hold hands, but if the Lord doesn't want you specifically to do it, it's a sin. And if you get married at some point in your life, you'll have to submit to your husband too...so it's good practice!

* http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

- AC

Wow I had no idea that holding hands and hugging your partner were considered sins before marriage.

I'm sorry Nioniel, I just don't know how to give that kind of advice when one of my own friends is going through that same experience with her mother except my friend seems to have it very worse than your situation. The only piece of advice that I really can give is that if you both really do end up caring about each other then you should both try and explain some understandings with him. And in my honest opinion if you're old enough to go away for university and you are independent, not living under your parents roof or supervision anymore then you are an adult and can make your own decisions even if they end up becoming mistakes. We're only human and here on earth to learn from our mistakes and trials before moving on.

I'm still pure and I have kissed, hugged, held hands on some dates and boyfriends that I've had however if it didn't work out sure I was gloomy for a day or two and by the third day I was over it. I guess it's because I'm in no rush to find someone to really settle for life with. So instead I'm loving the experience so far and now that I'm single and I look back on it all I finally know what to look for in a guy for whenever I do decide to get married, however my biggest priority is to begin into my chosen career before I ever get involved with marriage.

If I said anything offending I sincerely did not mean to.

I personally think that acts of affection are fine within a dating relationship. Acts of desire are not fine. The way I read it in one article is to compare it with a father's love for his daughter - he holds her hand and puts his arm around her and snuggles her just to show that he cares for her and loves her, not for any sexual enjoyment. I think that we should be allowed to touch in a way that we would be okay touching our respective siblings. If he would be okay with putting his arm around his sister to show her he cares about her without it being something sexual, then by all means he should be allowed to put his arm around me. I touch my close friends and my siblings all the time to show affection and think that I should be allowed to do the same with my boyfriend, and he to me, so long as the physical touch is limited to acts of affection and restricted when it comes to acts of desire. Obviously where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion, but I think there should be guidelines rather than just a strict zero contact policy. And I do not think that my opinion is un-Biblical.

I don't think your opinion is un-Biblical either. In fact, I think your opinion is more Biblical than your father's.

A lot of people believe in this no-contact policy. It usually stems from a frustration that so many couples are having sex outside of marriage, and so they end up setting rules that go too far the other way. Over-compensating is a very common human weakness. Although, I think people also buy into this idea because of a very un-Biblical mindset that seems to have, unfortunately, invaded most of today's Christian culture. And that is the mindset where the steps taken to avoid sin become an end in themselves. Let me give you three scriptures and two examples.

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.

First example. Let's say there's a movie that has violence and bad language in it. Maybe it's rated R. Maybe it's getting really bad reviews on all the Christian review sites. Maybe tons of Christians are saying not to watch it "because it has violence and language; violence and language are bad, therefore we as Christians should not watch it". However, they are mistaken in their thinking. Seeing violence and language is not a sin in itself. Rather, committing violence or bad language is a sin; thinking violent thoughts or inwardly cursing is a sin. It is not what goes into us; it is what comes out of us. So the question would not be “Does this movie contain bad content?” The question would be “Will the content in this movie cause me personally to sin? Will this movie serve as a temptation -- not to Christians or to people in general -- but to me, personally?” There are people in this world who become more violent and swear more if they watch movies that contain such content. They should avoid such movies, since those movies serve as a temptation for them. There are also people who don’t become more violent or swear more after watching those movies. It is absolutely fine for these people to watch those movies, because those movies do not serve as a temptation for them.

Second example. Let’s say there’s a G-rated movie. It doesn’t have any bad content. Maybe it’s even a Christian movie with great morals. Let’s say it’s getting awesome reviews from every Christian review sites, and Christians everywhere are saying you just have to see it. But let’s say a girl watches it (we’ll call her Jane). And there’s this character on the movie that really aggravates Jane. This character is so incredibly whiny and annoying, just seeing this character’s face or hearing this character’s voice frustrates Jane to no end. Maybe this character reminds Jane of horrible people she used to know. Or maybe this character just hits all of Jane’s pet peeves. Whatever the case, Jane is in a bad mood every time she watches this movie, and starts fantasizing about strangling this character or anyone who reminds her of this character. This content-free movies is making Jane more violent, therefore this G-rated movie serves as a temptation for her, and she should avoid watching it in the future.

It is not a thing or action in itself that is a sin, but rather how it affects us spiritually. All things are lawful for us -- but we must ask, are they serving as a good thing or a bad thing to us personally? This is the standard we should really go by when trying to make Biblical decisions. The problem with blanket statements, pre-made policies and guidelines, formulas, and step-by-step guides on how to maintain a Godly relationship or pure heart -- they’re all rubbish. There is no formula or “right way” of doing things, including dating or setting up boundaries. Because everyone’s temptation comes in a different form.

These one-size-fit-all rules are harmful in two different ways. 1. They can stop you from enjoying Godly gifts that are personally fine for you to partake in (it sounds like this is the one you may be currently experiencing), and 2. They can ignore potential areas of temptation an individual might have (this is what Jane probably would experience with that movie. Since it’s rated G and has no bad content, most people would tell her it’s fine to watch it. No one would guess the temptation she experiences from it. And if she was told that avoiding “bad content” was the only goal in choosing movies, she might follow their advice, and continue watching a movie that is causing her to sin).

The correct way to do it is, not to buy into pre-made formulas, but rather to get to know your own heart, try to recognize your own temptations and be honest about them, pray about it, have your boyfriend do the same with himself, and then set boundaries together. If hugging him like a brother isn't a temptation for either of you, then it's fine for you to do it. However, if hugging him like a brother ends up making either of you think of the other lustfully, or if it makes it easier for you to cave in to sexual desire, then it should be avoided. Also consider that, even if you touch someone like you would a sibling, you don't think of him as a sibling, and so the touch might end up feeling... different than you expected. Our psychology and sexual thoughts/feelings are very closely tied.

No other human can see into your heart and truthfully tell you what is tempting to you or spiritually bad for you. This is one of the main reasons why I've always personally believed dating is best done after one becomes an adult. When one is under age, we are still under the authority of our parents and their rules -- and our parents may not understand our strong points or our points of temptation. And that can lead to problems. Looking at your profile, it lists you as being 19. That would be considered an adult where I live, but some other states/provinces don't consider you an adult until you're 21. If you're "of age" where you live, then you can respectfully disagree with your father, assuring him you love him and appreciate his input, but still make a decision different than the one he advised you to make. It isn't disobedience to not follow your parent's rules if you are an adult. However, if you are still underage, you will have to obey his rules until you become an adult. In that case, it would be very wise to remind him that the true goal is to avoid things that personally tempt you, not avoid things that Christian culture has deemed temptation.

That being said, if you want to, for whatever reason, prove your standpoint to your father, you may want to approach it from the other direction first. The Bible says not to lust, and it says not to have sex before marriage, but that's really all it says. Things like kissing before marriage, hugging before marriage, holding hands before marriage, etc. aren't talked about in the Bible. Therefore, you won't find a scripture that says they're okay to do, but you also won't find one that says they're not okay to do. I have to admit that when you said your father is "very Biblically backed up", I raised my eyebrow a bit. I have never seen a person Biblically "prove" this sort of viewpoint without taking scripture majorly out of context and misapplying it. If your father is misinterpreting the Bible, (respectfully) finding the flaws in his theology might be a vital step to take in order for him to objectively listen to your points.

I can deal with my boyfriend and I not being ever allowed to touch wile dating, but it is the rebellious part of me that dislikes submitting to my father's authority.

I can't see into your heart, but I wouldn't be so quick to call yourself rebellious. Rebellion usually indicates a disregard for morality in favor of wanting to follow one's own desires. There is a difference between this and simply disagreeing with your father on a theological point. Both of you are flawed human beings, both of you can get the Bible wrong. There will be times when your father will be wrong about what the Bible says, and disagreeing with him when that happens is not rebellious. Especially considering that agreeing with the Bible is much more important than agreeing with your father. As I said, I can't see into your heart. But you certainly haven't shown a rebellious spirit here. You have thought about the situation rationally, explained your opinion clearly, gone to Christians (instead of the world) for advice, and asked specifically for godly, Biblical answers. That doesn't sound like rebellion or disregard for God's rules to me.

~Riella