johobbit wrote:

And only [countdown] more sleeps before we go to Grand Rapids MI to see The FotR (my favourite of the 3 films) on the big screen again and hear the GR Symphony Orchestra perform the score live.

That sounds like fun. Got good seats?

also by johobbit:

Anyway, it bothered me greatly how PJ presented this in the movie: for there Sauron seemed to master Aragorn via the Palantir (with the vision of Arwen supposedly dying), rather than the other way around. Grrrr! That R.E.A.L.L.Y. bothered me, for once again, it lessens kingly Aragorn as a character.

Wait, wait, are you trying to say that it bothered you?

No mention of Pippin also doing a better job with the Palantir than Aragorn did?

The book-Gandalf says that "the seeing-stones cannot lie, and not even Sauron can make them do so. He can cause others to see only what he wants them to see, or to misunderstand what they see."

Yet film-Pippin saw something that Sauron wanted to keep hidden -- the destruction of Minas Tirith -- and furthermore Pippin saw into the future after the manner of Galadriel's Mirror, a feature that the Palantir did not in fact possess. Whether any of the seeing-stones could see into the future is debatable -- the text says only that some of the stones are not bound by time -- but they never possessed the ability to hypothesize the future since that future, if it never happened, would be a fiction, therefore a lie.

The point of Pippin and the Palantir was to show how much trouble Saruman had gotten himself into. Sauron assumed that Saruman had captured the Ring-bearer and that Pippin was forced to look into the stone as a form of prisoner-torment. That would have been a cool scene and more fitting to the story than Sauron lecturing Frodo back in Bree's inn.

And it ties in to film-Aragorn's problems: when Aragorn looked into the stone, Sauron was taken aback -- "to know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to him" -- and in that moment of Sauron's discombobulation, book-Aragorn seized control of the stone for a moment. That was how Aragorn learned about the Corsairs; also, it was the single reason he took the Paths of the Dead.

So a lot was lost when the film tweaked those scenes.

The changes to Faramir in the movies didn't really bother me that much. At no point does he indicate that he wishes to wield it himself. If he had wanted to do so, it would have been extremely easy for him to overpower Frodo and take the Ring away. Instead he wants to give it to his father. I don't think his character was horrifically damaged by that. If he had attempted to take it for himself, like Boromir, I would have been angry. There'd be no redeeming the character after that.

Which line was it, Meltintalle?

As I recall, it was "A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality!" HA!

Seriously, if you're going to make a character diametrically opposed to what they are in the book, DON'T use their actual lines!

*wonders why anyone would want to take the ring back to Movie!Denethor...* Faramir's character may not have been horrifically damaged when you put it that way, Booky, but it was just one more degrading change on top of a whole bunch of others. For me, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Maybe Movie!Faramir is horribly naive about how psycho his father is? They went just a bit overboard with making Denethor evil in the movie. He's definitely a lousy father in the book and even a bit of a jerk, but he doesn't really seem totally nutso until the funeral pyre part. The movie made it look like he was needing to be fitted for a straightjacket from day one.

since they didnt have time to fully explore and develop denethor's character in the movie, they just sped up what happened instead. In the book, when we first meet him, Denethor is still a bit on the odd side, because at that time, he's already been looking in the Palantir and being influenced by Sauron. We see in the books him progress to insanity. In the movies, he's almost there, and then falls off the deep end.

So no, i don't think they went overboard with him, we just see him already in the late stages.

I'm not terribly bent out of shape over Movie!Denethor. I just don't like him because if he's already psycho...there isn't much to like.

The problem with him being psycho in the movie is that they never even showed his palantir. There's a line, I forget it now, that vaguely hints at it, but we never see it. So the non-book reader is left to believe that Denethor was just a crazy old guy no one had the guts to depose until he'd just about gotten half the city's defenders wiped out.

I love MOVIE!Faramir in RotK. Not so crazy about him in TT,always skip those parts(Frodo being taken over by the Ring is creepy). But like Booky said,he didn't want the Ring for himself,he wanted it so he could buy his Father's favor. And to be honest,if my Dad seemed to love my brother more than me,I think I'd want to do something to show him I'm just as good.

I think that my biggest gripe would be the whole "Flight to the Ford". Frodo was shown as a wimp,and don't get me started about missing Glorfindel...

About the "Arwen's fate being tied to the Ring thingy",someone proposed a theory. It goes back to the "Flight to the Ford" where Arwen says "What grace has been given to me,let it pass to him". Someone theorized that by doing that she was tying her fate with Frodo's. All said and done,I think it was over played. The inner struggle with mortality should have been enough,maybe even Elrond knowing what choice she had made by looking at her(Melian knew Luthien's choice by her eyes. But She was a...um...I-have-no-clue-how-to-spell-the-Tolkien-term-Sub-Vala!),but it shouldn't be noticable to a mortal's eye!

Also,does anyone else want to toss MOVIE!Frodo into Mount Doom? I know he was being tormented and all...but sending Sam away?! The whole general creepiness?! Why?!

PP, I don't know where you live but one of these years we need to meet in person. Seriously . I think we are totally kindred spirits. Wouldn't it be fun to watch the movies together and rant in unison? I promise to put no limit on your complaint time!

We very much enjoyed our LOTR movie marathon this past weekend. I provided running commentary on the parts that deviated badly from the books — though I had to be tactful. Sometimes the scenes my friends liked were completely uncanonical, lol. But it was a great time and I'm glad we made room for it in our schedules.

T.O.M., those are excellent thoughts about the real purpose and uses of the Palantír. I hadn't realized how much they really changed them for the films. Thank you for your insights!

That's a good point about us never seeing that Denethor had a Palantír in the film, Booky. I do find Denethor more likable in the book, but I can see why they sped things up; they had so much story to tell in a limited amount of time. Books have no such limitations, thankfully!

Also, in the extended version Denethor knows about the Ring way, waaaaay too soon, telling Boromir to get it to Minas Tirith before Boromir ever sets out for Rivendell. Denethor would not have known... and if he did know, how come Sauron wasn't able to read that in his mind through the Palantír? Another plot hole in the films.

I have been trying to explain why I love The Lord of the Rings to someone who wants to like it (and who did persevere to the beginning of RotK) but who just couldn't get into it. I've rambled on and on quite a bit explaining what I love about it, but I was wondering how you guys would answer someone like that? Of course you can't make someone like something and that's not what I'm trying to do; she asked me to give her a "why I love it" analysis so that she could try the book again with that in mind and maybe enjoy it this time around. So, what say you?

Why I love Lord of the Rings? Aragorn, hello?

Ok, that's not really the reason, I didn't like it just because of Viggo.

To me, (wow this is hard) it's the excitment, the history, the plot, the change, the good, the evil, the war, the struggle, each character's struggles, and how they persvere, the beauty of each culture, simple things, detailed things, (this list could really keep going) but most of all, perseverence. To put it in Sam's words:

It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened?

But in the end, it’s only a passing thing this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you that meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now.

Folks in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going because they were holding on to something.

What are we holding on to Sam?

There is some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.

That's why LOTR is such a great story.

PP, I don't know where you live but one of these years we need to meet in person. Seriously . I think we are totally kindred spirits. Wouldn't it be fun to watch the movies together and rant in unison? I promise to put no limit on your complaint time!

No time limit? Wow that would be great as would having someone to rant with.

I provided running commentary on the parts that deviated badly from the books.

I do this type of thing when my mom and I watch movies based on books. She doesn't mind it as much as my dad and sister do.

Also, in the extended version Denethor knows about the Ring way, waaaaay too soon, telling Boromir to get it to Minas Tirith before Boromir ever sets out for Rivendell. Denethor would not have known... and if he did know, how come Sauron wasn't able to read that in his mind through the Palantír? Another plot hole in the films.

Very good points. I didn't like that Denethor knew so soon. I don't like the Denethor in the books but I really strongly dislike the Denethor in the movie. I don't like the scene where he is eating and the juice is dripping down his face.

Which line was it, Meltintalle?

As I recall, it was "A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality!" HA!
Seriously, if you're going to make a character diametrically opposed to what they are in the book, DON'T use their actual lines!
*wonders why anyone would want to take the ring back to Movie!Denethor...* Faramir's character may not have been horrifically damaged when you put it that way, Booky, but it was just one more degrading change on top of a whole bunch of others.

I thought that was the line you were talking about. I agree they should not use the same lines and twist the meaning. It makes it a little but only a very little better when you think that Faramir wanted the ring for his father. I just reread the part in the book between Faramir, Frodo, and Sam. It is so much better than the movie version. I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to take the ring back to Movie!Denethor, especially Faramir, who is supposed to understand people.

Why I like LOTR:

• The books have rich details and depth based on the extensive back story. [/*3nbpcpiu][*]Tolkien created unique languages and Middle Earth has an extensive history. [/*3nbpcpiu]
• I like fantasy in general.[/*3nbpcpiu]
• I like the different creatures / people. [/*3nbpcpiu]
• Tolkien does a good job telling an intense story without making it too intense. (if that makes any sense). There is darkness but there is also light. There is doubt but there is also hope. There is seriousness but there is also humor. [/*3nbpcpiu]
• Each time I read it, I get more out of it / understand it better.[/*3nbpcpiu][/list3nbpcpiu]


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

My sister, Scarlet, found this LotR: FotR character quiz about a year ago, I think. And I thought it would be fun to post it and see who everyone got. This time I got Aragorn, but when I first took it, I got Arwen. The quiz questions have changed slightly since it was originally prepared.

SnowAngel

Well, I'm finally back in here! I missed a lot of the conversation, but I totally agree with you Eruce Also I got Elrond in that test.... but I'd classify myself more as Legolas

I'm reading FotR (started on Sept. 22! Thanks to all the NarniaWebbers who got me started in that tradition ) and I'm loving every bit! The Black Rider just passed the Hobbits on the road.

Also, I just wanted to say that on Saturday theonering.net is holding a LotR EE marathon *squeel* They announced it on the homepage, but I'm pretty sure you have to be a member. And you get to talk about it with other fans in their chatroom, which looks like tons of fun.

Yet film-Pippin saw something that Sauron wanted to keep hidden -- the destruction of Minas Tirith -- and furthermore Pippin saw into the future after the manner of Galadriel's Mirror, a feature that the Palantir did not in fact possess. Whether any of the seeing-stones could see into the future is debatable -- the text says only that some of the stones are not bound by time -- but they never possessed the ability to hypothesize the future since that future, if it never happened, would be a fiction, therefore a lie.

I don't know if they intended that to be a vision of the future, but I always took it to mean Pippin was somehow seeing into Sauron's mind, seeing what he intended to do to Minas Tirith. Now that's bad enough, because it makes Sauron look like kind of a wimp if he's incapable of keeping a hobbit out of his brain, but hopefully that was what they meant and weren't trying to imply the palantir was a pocket version of Galadriel's Mirror. That'd would be annoying.

On the quiz, I got Galadriel. That's not what I was expecting. The part about being more mature than most people your age seems a little weird, considering there basically wasn't anyone else her age.

Why I like LotR:

Tolkien created a story filled with memorable characters, an exciting storyline, and absolutely gorgeous use of the English language, all set in a fantasy land so vastly detailed and well-described that it feels like some secret history of our own world.

I suppose it's possible that Pippin was seeing Sauron fantasizing about the White Tree on fire ...

But that just has Pippin dipping ever deeper into Sauron's mind to read his fantasies. Dude needs a better firewall, or something.

Galadriel's mirror, though ... because of its ability to display several variations on the future I guess we can call it Schroedinger's Magic. Until Sam gets home to see if his vision has come to pass, then the Shire is simultaneously 100 percent fine and 100 percent a giant smoking crater.

Which, BTW, it would have taken only seconds to have film-Sam see the vision as in the book, instead of a vision that tells Frodo something he already knows could happen if he fails. Scaring Frodo is just scaring Frodo. Scaring Sam is a temptation and a chance to make a character-defining choice.

Also, all y'all do know that Theonering.net made a documentary, right? It's called Ringers: Lord of the Fans. (The PG-13 rating is because of a very brief reference to hippies and their, um, magic mushrooms. Also a brief mention of modern slashfic.)