I don't know that Whimsy always implies "cute", "light, or "safe". Terry Gilliam (Brazil, Time Bandits, Baron Von Munchausen...) and Tim Burton (Edward Scissorhands, Beatlejuice...) films often have a lot of very whimsical components, yet they are also often "dark" and slightly dangerous or satirical.

Thoughtful Artists and Writers often have many layers of meaning in their works. What appears whimsical on one level might be pointed or "barbed" on another. Roald Dahl is another author that readily pops to mind. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and James and the Giant Peach (among others) seem to have a lot of very whimsical elements, but they also seem to be dark, slightly dangerous, and/or satirical. Likewise for works as diverse as Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass and The 5 Children and It. Like The Hobbit, these are classics in Fantasy Lit for all ages that contain a great deal of whimsical humour light, dark, and satirical.

And for me, what distinguishes Lord of the Rings from The Hobbit, isn't the darkness, but the more Serious, and Earnest tone overall. The Epic scale and Drama of the Fantasy story is emphasized over more humourous elements. For example, Elves no longer sing "Tra-la-la-la-lally...", and even Gimli the Dwarf (in the book) is less buffoonish than most of the Dwarves in The Hobbit.

So I guess the question is: Can't something (book, art, film) be both whimsical and deep simultaneously? And can't there be shades of Whimsy ranging from light to dark?

GB

I want to comment on more things here (in previous posts), but am short on time, so for now ... clickie for potential Hobbit director news.

After a furious debate at the Hobbit forum I thought I'd ask a few Nwebbers to put in their tuppence.

Is The Hobbit Whimsical, or at least have some apparently Whimsical Elements? My position was that it at least has a number of Whimsical Elements based on one of the key definitions of Whimsy (Fantasy+Humour=Whimsy).

The Hobbit is very whimsical, but that whimsy overlays the brewing of events that break to the surface in LOTR. I think because of the fact that the film Lord of the Rings came first, some of the lightness of that whimsy will be subdued. The goblins may still sing, but the tune of their song might be dissonant and snarling, as is fitting for goblins. I do hope we get to see the more fun-loving side of the Elves, though. The Hobbit doesn't take place in open war time the way Lord of the Rings does, so only those people involved in the White Council (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, other ancient and powerful figures) really have any cause to be somber. I think if they keep Beorn in the films (which I really hope they do, he's a favorite of mine!) his sentient animal helpers will come off with more of a restrained wildness than a jolliness. Beorn is one of the darkest figures in The Hobbit, what with his nailing goblin skins to trees around his house. Things don't become really serious until the Battle of Five Armies, but some seriousness will be injected into it because of the interlacing of elements from the Silmarillion and Appendices that lead up to the rise of Sauron in Lord of the Rings. And if anyone assaults Dol Guldur, it should be Galadriel! She's the one with the real mojo in those parts, being the second oldest Elf in Middle earth.

Good point about women in fiction, Warrior. When Tolkien was writing, female characters like Eowyn and Galadriel and Luthien were not the norm. He was actually pretty groundbreaking and doesn't get nearly enough credit for it.

And if you read The Silmarillion...whoa! There are strong women all over the place, right from when he first describes the Valar. Yavanna's pretty darn tough, and she's not a warrior figure. Someone mentioned Aredhel and Haleth, even Luthien has some serious mettle. She doesn't need to pick up a sword, she can go all Jedi mind trick on you and make you think she just won! I also think the woman who raised all Feanor's sons (can't recall her name at the moment) is pretty tough. Seven boys and the original moody husband?! Yeesh!

As for the LOTR ladies, I've always preferred Eowyn because I found her more relatable, even in the film. Arwen is meant to be an exalted kind of presence, and the function she serves in the story is very courtly indeed. There's also an element of destined love to her relationship with Aragorn, since their marriage is what restores the bloodline of Numenor. In the film, I actually was very irritated by Arwen. I will never, ever, EVER like that she replaced Glorfindel in that she usurped Frodo's agency at the Ford. In the book, Frodo is on Asfaloth alone and he is the one to tell the Nazgul to turn back: his own strength is enough. The river floods as part of the protective power of Vilya (Elrond's Ring of Power) and Gandalf adds the horses for effect. This would have been a prime moment to showcase Frodo's strength and the power of the Elf rings. Arwen could still have been the one to find Aragorn and the hobbits in the wilderness, but if she had dismounted to fight with Aragorn as the Nazgul came closer (like Glorfindel did), it would have 1) allowed Frodo to have his moment and 2) given their relationship a more solid foundation as they fought back to back. Also, I can't stand her crying at the Ford! I fast forward through it every time. It's the only part I do that for.

Eowyn, though...she just has guts. There's still and air of nobility around her that comes across in the ceremonial moments, where she plays the very important role of hostess. She goes to war out of a drive to protect her country and her people. I've always felt her outrage at being consigned to the caves at Helm's Deep was out of frustration. They don't have enough soldiers, and she is very capable, so why shouldn't she fight? I wish she had a little more of this in the films and a little less school girl crush on Aragorn. I was very glad to see her romance with Faramir in the EE. I'm also really partial to Rohan...they're just cool.

And...Hobbit director stuff! I'd be happy with Neil Blomkamp. District 9 was a gorgeous film that didn't bog itself down with effects and stayed focused on it's characters and themes. It was all bare story, which is exactly what this kind of adaptation of The Hobbit needs, in my opinion. I think his name would bring in a quite a few people. He's got a sci-fi following now, and a lot of people know him from District 9 being up for Best Film. Of course, financially, PJ would be the surest bet since the public likes what they know. I've heard Sam Raimi mentioned...I'm iffy about him. I'd need to see some of his other work besides Spider-man (which if you ask any comic fan, were all awful hack jobs of plot lines and Peter Parker's character was completely wrong).

I haven't seen District 9, so I can't really give an opinion about Neill Blomkamp, but I'm glad they're moving forward!

Can't something (book, art, film) be both whimsical and deep simultaneously? And can't there be shades of Whimsy ranging from light to dark?

I think so. An example would be George MacDonald's The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie. Both contain whimsical elements (such as Curdie singing to keep the goblins away), but they both have deeper moments. Curdie especially has some very dark parts.

I don't think "any comics fan" is an entirely accurate representation Maenad . Indeed Many Comics Fans (including me) think Raimi's Spidey films (at least the first 2, problems with 3 not being Raimi's fault) were Bang on Target. Anyway Raimi is a strong possibility because of his fantasy experience both as director and producer (Xena, Hercules, Army of Darkness, Legend of the Seeker) and his New Zealand experience, having filmed a lot there. He's pretty good at blending humour, fantasy, and drama.

Apparently some people online are canvassing for David Yates of Harry Potter fame. I like his Potter films but if I had to choose any Potter director for The Hobbit it would be Alfonso Cuaron.

I also kind of like the idea of Kenneth Branagh directing who I've seen mentioned on some blogs and forums.

EDIT: Seems that Blomkamp may indeed be the choice (thanks Jo). I still haven't seen District 9, but by all accounts he would be a good choice. Not to mention that as an up-and-comer he would likely be willing to film The Hobbit as envisioned by Jackson and Del Toro.

GB

Quick Thank You to all that reviewed the movies for me! I watched them with my family and we all LOVED them. Borrowed them from the Library and am now wishing that I had bought them instead. (As soon as I get some extra cash Ebay is going to be getting a few orders .)

Hopefully if Neill Blomkamp takes the director spot he won't subject us to Bilbo dropping the f-bomb.

So glad you enjoyed the films, ClvrEttinsmoorGiant (and, btw, your signature is hilarious ). Well, keep an eye open in stores for purchasing: the movies are a lot less expensive now since they first released, naturally. Did you see the Extended Editions or the theatrical? *highly recommends the EEs*

Maenad, a large and warm welcome to NarniaWeb. I've already enjoyed your input and thoughts on the forum. And a heart DITTO to your third paragraph, especially. I was, and still am, very troubled that the filmmakers didn't deem it necessary to have brave and suffering Frodo stand up for himself at the Ford of Bruinen. As you say, having Arwen replace Glorfindel wasn't so much the issue—I can understand their reasoning for this decision: it was the follow-through as she took the Ring-bearer's place on the other side of the river in defying the Black Riders. *sighs deeply* I love Frodo's poignant and powerful scene in the book. How could they have changed this ...

Booky, I remember one sentence from the Neill Blomkamp article that relates to your point above:
"Those who believe he can only make documentary-style splatter films with clever curse-word filled dialog are selling the young talent very short."

this?

It's Sauron's army of giant bumblebees that he borrowed from the Mysterious Island! RUUUUUN!!!

Booky, I remember one sentence from the Neill Blomkamp article that relates to your point above:
"Those who believe he can only make documentary-style splatter films with clever curse-word filled dialog are selling the young talent very short."

Plus, he won't be writing the scripts. That's already been done by PJ and his original team and Guillermo del Toro.

I got the sil at the library like 3 weeks ago, and Im almost done! its a really great book, though some of the longer stories kinda drag... I really liked Of Beren and Luthien and so far my favorite character is Huan (or is it Huar? I cant remember cuz that was like 3 days ago )

Quick Thank You to all that reviewed the movies for me! I watched them with my family and we all LOVED them. Borrowed them from the Library and am now wishing that I had bought them instead. (As soon as I get some extra cash Ebay is going to be getting a few orders .)

I'm glad you liked them! In fact, I just watched The Fellowship of the Ring again (the extended for the first time ). I think it was excellently done, even if the EE gets long.

Maenad's comment made me think of Gandalf while in Moria. I couldn't help but laugh when the Fellowship was terrified of the Balrog, and Gandalf said, "This foe is beyond any of you." Suddenly he turns slowly to face them, and says very simply: "Run!"

Now, on the issue of Frodo and Arwen ....Frodo was much weaker than in the book. Could he have ridden Asfaloth by himself?

Good for you, Aslans_Jewel! That's an excellent and powerful book to get through—challenging at times, yet one of the best. It has become a beloved read of mine. When I first tried to read it in my mid-teens, I was rather stumped, so I waited a decade or so, and the rest is history. ♥

No, Frodo could probably not have ridden Asfaloth on his own, but Glorfindel assures him thus:
"But you need not fear: my horse will not let any rider fall that I command him to bear."

I think it was excellently done, even if the EE gets long.

The longer, the better, imho ... as long as it's from the book or appendices, and not scenes that are major diversions from Tolkien's tale.

Yes, Beren and Luthien is my favorite story in the Silmarillion. The hound is Huan, and I really like him too. And I like the elf-centeredness of it--they certainly weren't fading then. (I have a ton of characters I like from there.)

Weird. I think the EE versions of Lord of the Rings are very long but they seem to make the movies shorter than the theatrical releases.

A book I have been eagerly anticipating for five years now is finally coming to fruition: The Music of the Lord of the Rings by Howard Shore's 'shadow', Doug Adams. During a panel discussion, after hearing the full LotR symphony performed in Toronto in June 2005, this book was announced, and I've been counting the days ever since. There has been delay after delay, but finally it is going to be released this fall. The full cover is really amazing with an original and fresh Alan Lee drawing, "The Music of Gwaihir". Very poignant and powerful, as it depicts when the Eagles rescue the unconscious Frodo and Samwise from the tortured and convulsing Mount Doom.

Can hardly wait until the pre-ordering opens up.