There is a bit of a debate whether or not the Witch-king was all bluff in Gondor's gate or whether he could have been victorious in an out-and-out contest. One must remember that whereas Gandalf, except

seems to possess a fairly consistant amount of strength, while the power of the Nazgul grew with their closeness to Sauron, as well as when they went to war (as opposed to traipsing the Shire in disguise and far from Mordor). Remember that Sauron, by his connection to the One Ring, has a connection to the Nine; he can probably bestow greater power among them, and of course the Witch-king is inherently more powerful than the rest.

I personally tend to believe that Gandalf the White would have won that contest, but the Witch-king could still have put up a good fight. The movie version of that scene was horrendous; while I longed for it to be there, as it stood it would have been better left out altogether.

so.....James Mcavoy says he will not be in the Hobbit! good news, because he doesn't look anything like Bilbo! he is a great actor though!

Personally, I think McAvoy would have made a brilliant Bilbo. But I don't think he can be ruled out quite yet. He said "The Hobbit rumour is squashed", but that doesn't mean he won't still be asked.

That scene [the Witch-King and Gandalf] in the movie version of RotK should never have been filmed.

Another hearty Amen! Ugh. We always fast-forward that scene. It's pitiful.

*dittos Pattertwigs Pal's recommendation of Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth*
And I don't know whether I've mentioned this on the new forum yet, but cartographer Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth is a wonderful resource as well. (Note in the Tolkien Gateway entry they list a few minor errors.)

I personally tend to believe that Gandalf the White would have won that contest, but the Witch-king could still have put up a good fight. The movie version of that scene was horrendous; while I longed for it to be there, as it stood it would have been better left out altogether.

Hear! Hear! A hearty ditto from this hobbit! Amen and all that.

Hey, I don't believe we toasted the Professor on his birthday! *raises a toast to JRRT, who would have been 118 years old on the third of January*

I have no doubt that James Mcavoy could have pulled off the part of Bilbo.....he is, after all, a great actor! but if you put a picture of James next to a picture of Ian Holm, they look SO different!

anyways,
Return Of The King is, in my opinion, the best book Tokien ever wrote!

I found this while reading a pretty hilarious version of LotR as a tabletop game quest.

lol Bookwrym! that is SO funny!

I love how Peter Jackson dressed up as an orc and did the stunt with the arrow hitting him! that was really fun to see.....I wish it had been in the regular cut of the movie instead of the extended version!

This poor lost thread.

As for me, I'm eagerly/anxiously the day when the actor for Bilbo is announced.

Months ago I promised I'd list some of my favourite LotR movie scenes. Here ya' go:

FotR, my favourite film of the three, mainly because it sticks closest to the book and does proper justice to the way Tolkien (sub-)created his characters. After film 1, a few key folk are sadly demeaned.
~So, all of the first film, except for my great disappointment that the filmmakers did not allow Frodo to stand up on his own against the Nine across the Ford of Bruinen.
~Even though Galadriel is one cool Elf, her slooowww way of talking kind of bugged me. (As did Celeborn's ... maybe it's a husband and wife thing. )
~Elrond seems rather wimpy to me, not the strong, Elven Lord of the book
~Of course, there were many scenes from the book I wished were left in, but understand why not because of time constraints.

TTT
Everything, but ...
~Faramir's drastic character change from being honourable and noble—someone who knows what is right and follows through accordingly—to a weakling of a man in that regard.
~Aragorn's uncertainty about who he is (rather than how to accomplish what he knows he is to do)
~Éowyn, 'though I like Mirando Otto as the Shieldmaiden of Rohan, seems a tad whiny at times.
~Théoden's change of character: "Why should we go to Gondor's aid? They didn't come to ours". ... Come on, he's a King! How childish!
~Helm's Deep battle is too long and drawn out.

RotK
All scenes, but ....
~the whole Arwen thing: as Sauron's power grows, Arwen's strength wanes??
~Gandalf's character change: too wimpy and unsure (Gandalf cowering before the Witch King? I think not!)
~the ridiculous Frodo sending Samwise away bit (Gaaahh! I always fast-forward this)
~I'm not overly thrilled about how they portrayed the Mouth of Sauron. To me, it just looks goofy at times so therefore I can't take him seriously.
~Frodo falling partway into the Cracks of Doom

Okay, wups, I rather listed the main elements I didn't like, rather than those I did. I guess this is a good thing, though, because it means I like a fair bit more than I don't. (If I listed everything I enjoyed, the lists would be 'miles' longer.)

To me, some of the best aspects are the visuals—NZ scenery, sets, costumes, locations—and the glorious music, which, to me, encapsulates Middle-earth more than anything else. Overall, I certainly felt PJ kept the general spirit of the book, and while the above areas disappoint me very much, the many scenes that I like, I really like.

Glad you bumped this thread up, Johobbit!

Some of what you listed makes me think of discussions I had with a family member when we watched the movies. He said that he thought the movies were too dramatic -- for example, Frodo falling over Mount Doom. He thought the action was taken too far. What does everyone think?

ETA: He hadn't even read the books either, so that's quite interesting.

Gandalf's scene with the Witch-king was just plain weird. Would have been cool to see him give the Witch-king a run for his money

A list of some I particularly like (I did this before but I'm going to try to do a more expanded version, even though of course I can't list them all!) :

1) The flight to the ford (Yes, I know it included Arwen, but I happened to like her role even if it was a bit confusing. )
2) The scene where Aragorn counters Eowyn's sword. I just like it, I guess
3) Gandalf walking in to free Theoden (Theoden's part did not exactly match the book here -- not sure what I think of that -- but I happened to like Gandalf
4) Frodo's flashback (or whatever it was ) at Cirith Ungol of Galadriel. It expanded Galadriel

A list of some of my dislikes:

1) Haldir's death at Helm's Deep.
2) Frodo sending Sam away.
3) Boromir's death (waay too drawn out) and the very drawn out part where Sam is sinking because he can't swim and Frodo saves him.
4) Aragorn going over the cliff (Cliche and unneeded in the course of things. At first I thought that this was a good idea because it drew Aragorn into being the one who sees the army coming toward Helm's Deep, but I don't think that scene is completely needed.)

Some of my more random thoughts:

-- I would have liked to see Gandalf (or at least a white figure) when Frodo was looking into the Mirror.
-- As I said before, Arwen's role seemed a bit inconsistent. When we first see her, she's a warrior princess, and then for the rest of the movies she's just sitting in Rivendell. I know she had a deleted storyline. Also, when I was watching the movies I recall thinking that her role took away from Eowyn's (although I DID like all the female roles, in general).
-- I think Galadriel's role should have been expanded more. She seems an insignificant character compared to Arwen (And no, I don't have a bias ), if you get what I'm saying. I know Galadriel didn't appear much in the book, but I'm 90% certain she was at Aragorn's coronation (and wasn't in the movie, for some reason).

Edit: Oh, yes, the music! And the scenery. Like the beginning shot in The Two Towers of the mountain above Moria. (I still don't know if that was at least partially CGI-ed? ) And so often I find myself humming the Hero theme.

Lady Galadriel

I've been meaning to post in this thread for quite a while but kept getting distracted.

And I don't know whether I've mentioned this on the new forum yet, but cartographer Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth is a wonderful resource as well. (Note in the Tolkien Gateway entry they list a few minor errors.)

Thanks so much for the recommendation. I had been meaning to ask if it was any good. I definitely have way too much in my head to keep a map there. I think whatever way I'm facing is north. (That is my first impression. If I stop and think about it I can figure out which way I'm really facing - provided the sun is up.) One night I had myself so confused about west and east that I thought the map on the cover of my Narnia book was wrong. I've always thought that it would be extremely helpful to have a light up map to show where the characters were at a given time. (kind of like they have at visitor centers at battlefields to show the movements of troops.) It was horrible when I was trying to figure out where things were happening when I was reading Unfinished Tales and the Sim.... (I don't know how to spell it ) because the maps were incomplete or so tiny I couldn't see anything. I ended up using the map in the Children of Hurin to help. The maps in LotR books I have are so tiny and crowded, I have end up using the ones in my German editions of books. Anyway, I hope the book will help. I've looked at it a little and have for the most part been impressed. Although I do wish there were a few more details about the journey to Crickhollow and through the Old Forest.

He said that he thought the movies were too dramatic -- for example, Frodo falling over Mount Doom. He thought the action was taken too far. What does everyone think?

YES! I think the action was taken too far. One of my major pet peeves is when film makers take an already exciting book and try to make it more exciting.

4) Aragorn going over the cliff (Cliche and unneeded in the course of things. At first I thought that this was a good idea because it drew Aragorn into being the one who sees the army coming toward Helm's Deep, but I don't think that scene is completely needed.)

I've been meaning to bring this scene up (starting with Aragorn falling of the cliff and ending when he arrives at Helm's Deep but before his entrance to the fortress.) I think the whole thing is ridiculous and unneeded. First, he survives the fall and manages to float in the water to the shore. Then there is the weird dreamlike thing with Arwen where he almost kisses the horse. Finally, he is able not only to ride in this weakened state but also miraculously get his strength back. Thoughts?

Oh, yes. That scene. Very cliche and unneeded. But as annoying as it is, I still vote for Frodo almost falling into Mount Doom as the most annoying added action scene. Honestly, how many times are we going to be shown the dramatic character hanging off a cliff suspended by a single hand scene? And Sam would never have been able to pull him up, considering Frodo's hand was soaked in blood.

Hmmm! I had a similar discussion at The Hobbit Movie Forum. Of course I defended Jackson's version of events .

How is Frodo dangling from a ledge (Jackson's version) any more cliched than the villain falling from a cliff (of his own accord no less) at the moment of climax (Tolkien's version)? Both versions are equally archetypal. From Holmes and Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls to all the "Disney Deaths" (google it), both versions of the Cliff Scenario are standard story tropes.

I submit that Jackson's version at least supplies a more visually dramatic experience.

GB

Pattertwig's Pal: about the bit where Aragorn falls off the wall in Helm's deep: I also think it's silly that they could make him survive that kind of fall! he would have at least broken every bone in his body if he didn't die frist (I think that realisticly, he would have died)! and yes, the part where he falls off the cliff is also just as ridicules! he would have either been killed on the rocks or drowned! but hey, it's a movie! they can do anything!

Well, firstly, it looks like filming of The Hobbit may begin in July. In light of that, surely they will be announcing the Bilbo casting soon. But wait, at the end of the article, they say that The Hobbit will be the first film, while the second film will deal with the 60 years between TH and TLotR. Hmm, I thought TH was going to split between two films. Mind you, they've changed their minds so many times, it seems, I'm getting rather confuzzled.

He said that he thought the movies were too dramatic -- for example, Frodo falling over Mount Doom. He thought the action was taken too far. What does everyone think?

I agree. I mean, they could have taken them even further ('though thankfully they didn't), but I felt some of the scenes were definitely over-the-top: Frodo falling over the cliff at Mount Doom; Aragorn ridiculously falling over that massive drop in TTT (and I forgot to mention this in my previous post as something I dislike in the films, but for sure it is majorly on that list ). Besides, Viggo, himself, was terrified of drowning during that scene as the strong current held him forcibly under at one point.

Pattertwigs Pal said it well:

One of my major pet peeves is when film makers take an already exciting book and try to make it more exciting.

Yep!

Lady G, I agree that the flight to the Ford scene was fabulous, in terms of cinematography and intensity. Wonderful shots, oh yes! It's how they changed the scene across the Ford that I object to: that part of the book where Frodo says "By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" is just so powerful, and I sorely missed that in the movie.

One of my favourite scenes, as well, is the weapon encounter between Éowyn and Aragorn in Meduseld. A strong, moving scene!

One RotK EE scene I especially love is when Frodo and Sam see the stone King near the Crossroads, his head rolled off to the side and in its place an orc-fouled stone; then a beam of sun catches the king's sad head wreathed with flowers and hope returns for that one moment.

How is Frodo dangling from a ledge (Jackson's version) any more cliched than the villain falling from a cliff (of his own accord no less) at the moment of climax (Tolkien's version)?

Great to see you, GB. It was the dangling part that irked me. It immediately threw me out of the story because it was no longer believable for that short time. (My suspension of disbelief was no longer suspended. ) Gollum, the villain, fell from the cliff, but that was true to Tolkien and he fell, not dangled.

Our daughter and I are reading The Hobbit aloud and whilst we don't get to it regularly, we're sure enjoying when we do. We're about to begin "Fire and Water", the attack of the dragon on Laketown, and his demise at the hand/bow of Bard. Wonderful, wonderful story!

^^ they are going to start in July? wow, it's going to be forever until we can see this movie!
I sure hope they will announce who is playing Bilbo soon! the wait and the tension are killing me!

Thanks Jo . It's good to be seen again .

I read the BBC report too, but I think some of it is mistaken (not up to their usual standards of research). The June/July date seems to be right, and has been confirmed by local Wellington residents who have been warned by their employers to gear-up for work. but the bit about the second film being a "bridging" film is clearly ancient news that has long been abandoned.

The most recent extensive Del Toro interview that I read (a couple of months ago) indicated that The Hobbit itself would be split fairly evenly into two films, with the added material covering Gandalf's Adventures with the White Council, Dol Guldur, and The Necromancer.

GB