Hi all, back from health leave.

Three comments. Well, one comment and two questions to take our minds off the comment we seem to share.

The Hobbit.

The Hobbit is a story about Bilbo Baggins firstly, Thorin Oakenshield secondly, and then about everyone who wants him to succeed such as Gandalf and the other Dwarves.

The Hobbit is a Bildungsroman. It is the story of a well-meaning but bumbling innocent who cannot keep up with Bombur of all people, yet learns on the job until he becomes a wiser leader than Thorin.

What The Hobbit is not: it is not The Avengers with Gandalf as Nick Fury and his amazing Elven-friends as the Warriors Three.

What I would consider as additions: Gandalf's Unfinished Tales meeting with Thorin, or the destruction of Dale. They would be Thorin's dreams, showing the passage of time he slowly rots in the dungeons of the Elvenking, not knowing if his friends are alive or dead. Maybe a few flashbacks as Balin recalls the last time he stood watch on Ravenhill. But I think that flashbacks would work best if they aren't longer than the Smeagol and Deagol scene in Return of the King.

To me it's very simple. The Hobbit deserves to be its own film. It is only long enough to be one film. The Rankin-Bass version had to pad with songs to make it long enough to be one film. Even if they flesh out little plot tidbits such as the ponies bolting into the Greyflood, or Bilbo stealing the pie from the village by the Forest River, that would add up to one film. No more.

If the extra material is good, release it as its own film/s and I will watch. I like ice cream and I like barbecue sauce, but not in the same bowl. If the extra material is not good, don't put it in anywhere. I like ice cream but I don't like vinegar, and putting them in the same bowl won't make the vinegar good.

If only there was a way for the production team to hear our cries across the pathless voids!

If there is anyone who does have their ear, or posts on a website that they read, feel free to copy & paste to add my plea to yours, unless someone else has done it better.

...

Now, some questions to take our minds off it.

Question 1. Those wacky Numenoreans and their pride. Ar-Pharazon the Golden defeated Sauron without firing a shot. A monument was installed at Umbar, which even the Exiles honored and maintained. Oh sure, Cousin Goldie was a tyrant, but it was the first time anyone beat Sauron without firing a shot.

So why aren't the Exiles proud of the heroes in their family? Tar-Palantir the prophet. Lindorie the saint (sister of Earendur of Andunie, the father or less likely the grandfather of Amandil). Inzilbeth the saint. Amandil and Tar-Miriel the martyrs. Or maybe they were all martyrs, depending on how you define martyrdom.

On the one hand, the fact that Elendil set up his own dynasty suggests that he rejected his role as Tar-Miriel's closest living relative. (They had the same great-grandmother: Earendur's unnamed parent/s, making them second cousins.) On the other hand, the fact that Elendil holds up Silmarien as the mother of the founder of the dynasty suggests a rejection of the Numenorean monarchs as a whole, save those before her.

Complicating all of this is the fact that the Exiles adopted the Elvish custom of not counting daughters as heirs. Idril and Luthen, anyone? ("Maeglin heard that Turgon had no heir.")

The kings of Arnor always had sons. Something like 39 generations of sons if we count back to the First Age. So the Exiles never had to face the question of Zelophehad's daughters until the days of Arvedui.

(For those unfamiliar with the tale, the women argued that by disinheriting a daughter, the law disinherited a man's grandsons through that daughter. God sided with the women, making this a divine ruling and therefore a legal precedent. I know the Men of Middle-Earth had no copies of Scripture of their own, but it's interesting that they didn't seem to have laws of their own, even though the House of Hador had an army!)

I guess what I'm asking is where do these guys get their succession rules. It seems to change every few generations according to convenience rather than principle.

...

Question 2. Much simpler. What happened to Sauron's other eye?

Answer to Question 2:
He merged it with the first one.

Perhaps that's how cyclops first came into being?

I see The Hobbit having a lighter tone than The Lord of the Rings but I don't think it will receive a PG rating. You can't do much with a PG movie these days (at least not in Australia - we seem to be much stricter on violence than sexuality). Case in point - both Eragon and Prince Caspian received an M15+ rating here.

Whereas we have the opposite problem here in the States. Ratings have become a bit of a joke cause they're squeezing movies into a lower rating that really don't deserve it. I'd guess Hobbit will be PG because you don't "see" any violent deaths like you do in LotR, but you never know. Doesn't really matter to me, I'll go see it irregardless.

So last week my husband and I were on the way to Colorado and decided to discuss where we think the movies are going to break now that there are three of them.

For the end of Part 1, we came up with...
~At the end of Out of the Frying Pan and Into the Fire and before they arrive at Beorn's house.
~Right after Riddles in the Dark where Bilbo escapes from Gollum and the Goblins and is reunited with the dwarves.

End of Part 2...
~Right after the Dwarves and Bilbo escape in the barrels and arrive in Laketown. (At first we didn't think there would be enough material here, but if they include all of Gandalf's adventures that aren't necessarily talked about in the book, it might be enough.)
~Arriving at the Lonely Mountain.

We thought maybe after Smaug, but I just don't think there would be enough material left with the Battle of Five Armies to do a third movie.
Only a few more months until we find out about the first movie!!!

For the end of Part 1, we came up with...
[...]
~Right after Riddles in the Dark where Bilbo escapes from Gollum and the Goblins and is reunited with the dwarves.

That's what I would also suggest for that ending. It rounds off the first movie nicely, not too much of a cliff-hanger - Bilbo is safe and ready to continue his adventure next week.
Errr, I mean, next year.

End of Part 2...
[...]
We thought maybe after Smaug, but I just don't think there would be enough material left with the Battle of Five Armies to do a third movie.

When you read the skirmish that was the battle of Helm's Deep and compare it to the massive battle in the Two Towers movie, I think that "not enough material for a battle" is not an issue

And if they put in the whole issue of Dol Guldur and the Necromancer, there could be plenty for the next movie.

I would end the second movie a little earlier and leave Smaug's death for the third movie, though. Finish it after Bilbo has talked to the dragon - perhaps when Smaug sets off for Laketown?

I'm not sure about what exact moment I would choose, though, mostly because I don't remember the sequence of events at that time very well. I've just started rereading the book ...

When you read the skirmish that was the battle of Helm's Deep and compare it to the massive battle in the Two Towers movie, I think that "not enough material for a battle" is not an issue

I had wondered if someone was going to call me out on that. I had the same thought, but I need to clarify what I meant. I know PJ could easily do 2 hours of 5 armies warring away. But what I meant was, that's ALL it would be... that and the aftermath. The lack of story would turn it into a summer smash fest. I don't know that it would go over well with the viewers, but I could be wrong.

And if they put in the whole issue of Dol Guldur and the Necromancer, there could be plenty for the next movie.

Did you mean this for the second or third movie?

I would end the second movie a little earlier and leave Smaug's death for the third movie, though. Finish it after Bilbo has talked to the dragon - perhaps when Smaug sets off for Laketown?

How about right after they fit the key in the door and it opens down to Smaug? A little later than my suggestions, but earlier than the long sequence with Smaug.

ETA: First pic of Thranduil

If they're not cutting it at Barrels Out of Bond (which was my initial thought when they were doing two movies), they should cut it when the Dwarves and Bilbo enter Mirkwood. It's a perfect slightly happy moment with just a touch of foreboding and gloom and doom that will transition nicely to the start of the second movie. This would work really well if there was a parting shot of Bilbo entering the wood, and then the camera zooms up to above the trees and turns south towards Dol Guldur. *cue Ring music*

The second movie would then cover Mirkwood, Barrels out of Bond, the arrival at Lake Town, and taking down Dol Guldur. Cut at the Necromancer fleeing east and then turn and zoom north to see smoke trailing out of the Lonely Mountain. And then everything else in the third movie. I still don't really like the idea of three, but I could see it working this way.

On Thranduil's picture:

Gracious, I really haven't sat down and thought of where each film would end now that the third one has been added. I'd like to take this to my family so that we individually write down where each film might conclude, then seal it until the releases.

This would work really well if there was a parting shot of Bilbo entering the wood, and then the camera zooms up to above the trees and turns south towards Dol Guldur.

Very cool. Kind of like how PJ had the final scene in TTT, with Frodo, Samwise following Gollum on into the woods towards the Ephel Dúath, then swinging the camera up, up, up over the mountains, looking into Mordor.

As for Thranduil, he looks like Lucius Malfoy from HP (I've always thought Malfoy looked a bit too Elvish, though, lol) and is too non-woodsy for my thinking. And whilst I love the idea of a crown of autumn leaves, his seems a bit ... extreme. I wish his costume was more in greens and browns, rather than almost metallic. That blond hair needs to go: brown, please. Cool look for maybe an Elf star, but not for the Woodland King.

I know PJ could easily do 2 hours of 5 armies warring away. But what I meant was, that's ALL it would be... that and the aftermath. The lack of story would turn it into a summer smash fest. I don't know that it would go over well with the viewers, but I could be wrong.

Yes, it wouldn't necessarily be a good movie. I remember from watching the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in RotK, and thinking after a while, "Now that's enough. I've seen it all. I don't need more of the same." And there was more of the same for at least another ten minutes

And if they put in the whole issue of Dol Guldur and the Necromancer, there could be plenty for the next movie.

Did you mean this for the second or third movie?

For the third.

How about right after they fit the key in the door and it opens down to Smaug? A little later than my suggestions, but earlier than the long sequence with Smaug.

That's probably even better. But do give us a little glimpse of Smaug - just a small taste of what we can expect

After having to live with this version of Thranduil, I'll take almost anything. I do agree that the metallic clothes have got to go, but his sword and crown are great. I honestly did not make the connection to Lucius Malfoy (though I do see it). My first thought upon seeing the picture was, "Yep. That's Legolas' dad all right."

As for the crown, I was expecting something much weirder to show up, a la the musical's verison of Galadriel. Given that assumption, I'm glad that it isn't that ostentatious and it seems very natural and proper to me.

I know PJ could easily do 2 hours of 5 armies warring away. But what I meant was, that's ALL it would be... that and the aftermath. The lack of story would turn it into a summer smash fest. I don't know that it would go over well with the viewers, but I could be wrong.

Yes, it wouldn't necessarily be a good movie. I remember from watching the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in RotK, and thinking after a while, "Now that's enough. I've seen it all. I don't need more of the same." And there was more of the same for at least another ten minutes

Ditto, Varna! So weary of PJ's prolonged battle scenes. What's the point, I ask? And, fk, I don't think you'd be wrong ... at least for many of us here.

Even though I'm not fond of Thranduil's overall image, it struck me too, st, how he and Legolas could be related, although I pictured an older Elf. (Mind you, do Elves ever look old? ) To me, though, he looks like he could be Leggy's brother rather than father.

My father finished reading The Lord of the Rings the other day and found " 'Well, I'm back', he said" to be a very moving concluding sentence. He then immediately asked about The Silmarillion. So, who knows?

Let's hope he doesn't expect Silmarillion to be more of the same.
When I first saw the Sil, I flicked through it in the bookshop, but wasn't very interested, so I just left it.

Little did I know that I missed out on owning a First Edition

A First Edition?!! Wowser!

I did explain to Dad that The Sil is a different (and heavier) style than The LotR and reads much like parts of the Old Testament, so he is duly warned.

But as he is deep into Great Expectations now (for the umpteenth time), I'll wait for his cue.

I could have bought it on the day when it was first published - in a university bookshop in England, where I was a student at the time.

A change in Hobbit titles. The movies.

1 is still titled: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey
2 now called: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug
3 will take over 2's original title: The Hobbit: There and Back Again