Rose, I obviously need to reread Ella Enchanted because, while I have a decent recall of the climax, I can't see it being a great psychological conflict. Perhaps I just need a better definition of terms...
Re: all your TTT thoughts: Have you started RotK yet?
Also, my mom keeps throwing me things to think about since our recent rewatch of the EEs , so I'm going to run a few things past anyone who would like to weigh in.
[spoiler=RotK (movie)]My mom additionally brought up the scene where Elrond comes to deliver the reforged sword; Theoden is in the middle of talking to Elrond when Aragorn enters. Theoden leaves with an odd look upon his face, pausing as if to say something to Aragorn but then exits without speaking.
I think we've debated what exactly Elrond said to Theoden over the years, but the most recent reigning interpretation was that Elrond, with his foresight, told Theoden that he would die in the next battle. This would bear in with Theoden's instructions that Eowyn would lead the people of Rohan; the "if the battle goes ill" line would presumably then refer to Eomer dying. This is also borne out with Theoden's line to Eowyn that he "would see [her] smile again, not grieve for those whose time has come".
However, my mom also raised (resurrected?) the idea that Elrond said something about Arwen, perhaps that he came on an errand for his daughter whom he loved and who was dying (or perhaps would not leave for the West). Theoden already knows that Eowyn is crushing very hard on Aragorn (at the very least! See the scene where Eowyn brings the cup to Aragorn, Theoden tells Eowyn that he is happy for her, and she doesn't say anything about there not being an understanding), though I can't remember if he knew anything about Arwen besides Aragorn wearing an Elvish necklace. This is borne out by the pause Theoden gives when leaving the tent as he comes up to Aragorn, but him leaving without saying anything. This is also borne out by Theoden leaving Eowyn the ruling of Rohan if he (and Eomer?) dies (die); this provides for her even if, or perhaps especially if, she doesn't marry Aragorn. Also, Theoden is very gentle with her in the scene in Dunharrow; he's almost always gentle with her, but he is especially so there. It could just be he knows it's hard for her and that she had a bitter parting with Aragorn, but it could also be because he knows all her hopes there have been smashed. I'm not sure. [/spoiler]
Some days you battle yourself and other monsters. Some days you just make soup.
Valia, concerning your first spoiler:
I think both interpretations in your second spoiler make sense. I don't know which I prefer.
"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration
6689 posts from forum 1.0
stwin,
I'm not sure which I prefer either. Maybe the latter?
Some days you battle yourself and other monsters. Some days you just make soup.
Okay. It's been a while since I played it and my copy has been gone for a few years, but here goes (with a little help from YouTube):
Saruman: You have paid dearly for his devotion, Theoden. Did you not know? He killed your son. Slaked his thirst -- with poison.
Grima: You made me do it.
Saruman: And you do what I say -- always -- don't you worm?
Grima: Nooooo! *stabs Saruman*
Apparently, PJ also discusses this on the ROTK EE commentary. It's been probably a decade since I last listened to those, so I'm not surprised I didn't recall this.
"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration
6689 posts from forum 1.0
Stwin, thank you! Now that I think about it, it seems like there were a number of things cut from RotK last minute...
Some days you battle yourself and other monsters. Some days you just make soup.
I recently got a tattoo, and I'm super excited about it. I've been wanting it since I was relatively new to the forum (2008-2009 or so?), so I felt that I should share it haha
no longer active. every once in a while ill pop back for the memories. good to see a few recognizable names 🙂
I am about to start my annual read of LOTR. I want to be in a suitable place to begin, so if the weather tomorrow afternoon is better than today, I might go and sit in the park across the road. If not, in the little lounge beside my bedroom, overlooking the lovely green garden (and pool).
There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."
Marigold has been mentioned elsewhere today ( ), and some of us discussed what relation she was to Samwise Gamgee - it turned out she was his sister.
Marigold is only mentioned once in LotR, at a point (I'm not saying when) where Sam is worried that he may never return safely from his quest.
He says,
"But I would dearly like to see Bywater again, and Rosie Cotton and her brothers, and the Gaffer and Marigold and all."
"The Gaffer" is his father, and it makes sense that Marigold is then his sister.
(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)
I found my Photo Guide to RotK and it turns out I was right:
Some days you battle yourself and other monsters. Some days you just make soup.
I can't believe I forgot to post this earlier. There is a new cover of The Song of Durin on youtube. It's by the same group that did a 20 minute version of Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold, which is basically everything I ever imagined Dwarvish singing to be.
Finally started! Have read chapter one, sitting up in bed before going to sleep last night.
Today is a public holiday and very quiet, so I think I'll take my book out into the garden and sit in the sun, and consume more chapters - with a nice cuppa.
There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."
Has anyone else seen this advertised?
https://www.wetanz.com/shop/books-movies-tv/middle-earth-from-script-to-screen?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EDM%20005c%20Middle-earth%20book&utm_content=EDM%20005c%20Middle-earth%20book+CID_519e252a7a3145a0f6854ad0c5389ec0&utm_source=Weta%20Newsletter&utm_term=PRE-ORDER%20NOW
It's quite expensive, but it looks lovely.
There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."
Finally had a chance to write up my thoughts on RotK! I haven't gotten around to reading the appendices at the end of the book yet (where the text size shrinks alarmingly smaller in my pocket versions, which are wonderful but ill-advised for regular reading ) but I'm looking forward to reading those as well.
I thought that the Pukel-men and the Wild Men that resembled them were interesting. One of the aspects of The Hobbit/LotR that is most intriguing is the idea that there are many stories that are still untold... it's the sort of thing that makes one keen to delve into the rest of Tolkien's published writings.
It is surprising to me because there are so many excellent parts and I am not usually good at ranking anything anyway, but I think my favorite passage in the entire series must be Eowyn defending fallen Theoden before the Witch-king. I had to immediately go back and re-read that part; it was so spine-chillingly good. I knew that Eowyn was Dernhelm (I think I picked that up years ago, thanks to our Dernhelm_of_Rohan here on the forum), but I didn't realize she was so awesome. And to any theoretical personage who might try to diminish the gleam of her bravery by suggesting she was already suicidal anyway: there were cheaper deaths to buy on that battlefield! There was plenty of honor for anyone who wanted it. She didn't have to face down the chief of the Nazgul, for heaven's sake, but that's exactly what she did. Wow.
It's honestly an amazing exchange because all through the series prior to it, we have been learning about the type of effect that the Ringwraiths have on mortals. Their unseen cries alone were an incredible terror... "at length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death." How was Eowyn able to string coherent sentences together, much less slay the adversary? She out of all the characters we have met seems most consumed with despair, and yet perhaps that's it: she had already been living with something akin to the effects of a Ringwraith for a long time, it would seem, and that is why the Witch-king had less power over her. (Think of the icy feeling that passed over Merry when he looked into Dernhelm's hopeless eyes.) It reminds me of a Tolkien quote that I had encountered before I ever read any of his books:
A divine 'punishment’ is also a divine 'gift’, if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments’ (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained.
I rather doubt that Eowyn would have been able to slay the Witch-king had she not already been consumed by despair and had long ago steeled herself to it.
(And let's not forget Merry!! Merry was wonderful, and indispensable. "At least she should not die alone, unaided"... bless him! )
In a way, the unhappy parts of Eowyn's story culminating in a necessary, heroic act reminds me a little of Gollum's wretched road ending in a necessary, selfish act. Gandalf was right about him; it seems Gandalf is the only thing close to an all-seeing eye in Middle Earth, however much Sauron would beg to differ. Gollum's demise did surprise me, but it was a fitting end for him. I was having a hard time coming up with a way for Tolkien to conclude his story because he seemed so far gone and much beyond the abilities of anyone on Middle-Earth to redeem. His choice at Cirith Ungol was a new low, to say the least. At the same time, however, he is like an addict, and it is hard to hate an addict in spite of all that they have done. It has always been difficult to pity him when we know that he became a murderer just to possess the Ring in the first place, but then again, Boromir could have easily done the same if he'd had the chance. A cautionary tale indeed... Boromir was very fortunate that the Ring never came to his possession.
The way that Aragorn was revealed to be king was creative! I was interested to read that Tolkien had originally intended for him to marry Eowyn... she seems to have too much fire to be very compatible with his quiet and grave strength. He does seem better suited with the Lady Arwen, but I was very surprised at how little she was in the books! Especially since she seems to be far and away the more popular of the two characters, as illustrated by Google trends. Clearly, they must have expanded her role in the films. On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised that Eowyn and Faramir ended up together in the book... for some reason I had gotten the sense that the filmmakers made a change by pairing them, but I'm guessing it was just an additional scene or something. I was all smiles during that part of RotK. I feel like some people might be disappointed that Eowyn gave up fighting and became a healer, but she had been driven to battle by so much mental and emotional anguish... it seems to me that she had finally found the road to wholeness after her shadow had departed, and that new state meant that her purpose was to make others whole as well.
When Pippin lost consciousness at the end of WotR, my exact thought was, "Tolkien... if you kill him... " Thankfully, all my dear hobbits made it out alive, although some were scarred.
I loved Sam's rescue of Frodo from the tower (I cannot quite believe the rumor that the filmmakers were going to have Arwen do that instead? Surely I misunderstand? ), and his broken singing in that land of evil. And all his dogged support of Frodo, all the way through to the end. Sometimes I wonder if I don't love him better than Frodo—his faithfulness makes it hard! I should very much have liked to live in the Shire with Mr. Gamgee as mayor, to say the least. Frodo's quiet courage, his patience with a creature such as Gollum, and the incredible burden he carried all the way to Mount Doom make it impossible to choose between the two, however. It was an awful moment when he surrendered to the power of the Ring, after all he had been through.
I did enjoy reading about the Scouring of the Shire, despite all of the awful things that Saruman and Grima had done. (I really, really did not expect them to be at the bottom of it all.) It was cheering to see the hobbits ride in and put things to rights and free their people, and even more cheering to see the Lady's gift to Sam restore the Shire to even greater glory than it had known before.
The ending of it all makes one feel rather pensive, though. It makes sense that Frodo wouldn't be able to settle back down to life in the Shire, that he needed to go away to seek more extensive healing from what he had been through. The title of a Thomas Wolfe novel (which I have yet to read) was echoing in my mind during that last chapter—"You can't go home again." It was a sad parting, but the three friends returning to the Shire eased the sorrow, as did homey Bag End—and the hope that Frodo was sailing to where he would find peace. "I will not say: do not weep, for not all tears are an evil" was a helpful thing to hear indeed as the curtain fell on our heroes.
(On the bright side, I had spent a lot of LotR fearing that Bilbo was surely going to die at some point, so it was very nice to watch him sail away with Frodo instead!)
I had better stop now before we have to change the word "Road" to "Rose" in the thread title. Sorry for my thoughts being all a-jumble, but I suppose you seasoned readers of Tolkien will be able to sort through them easily enough.
What most of us thought would never happen, is finally happening after all - The Fall of Gondolin will be published in August this year.
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2018/04/the-fall-of-gondolin-to-be-published/
Edited by Christopher Tolkien and illustrated by Alan Lee, The Fall of Gondolin will follow the same format as Beren and Lúthien published last year, separating out the story so that it stands alone while showing how the narrative evolved over the years. This is the first time the tale of the Fall of Gondolin will be published as a standalone edition, collecting all versions of the story together.
I am so happy about this news!
(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)
I am awfully eager for this too, Varna, and thanks for posting. Sorry to say that I am not a huge Beren/Lúthien fan so have not yet bought that book (maybe someday), but I really love the fascinating and captivating tale of Gondolin, that great Hidden City. Definitely purchasing this when it releases!
Signature by Narnian_Badger, thanks! (2013)
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