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[Closed] Arthurian Legend SF

shastastwin
(@shastastwin)
Member Moderator Emeritus

The legends of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table have been around since the Middle Ages when the cycles of stories we recognize now as Arthurian tales were first written to entertain the courts of Europe. Some aspects of the legends go back even further, descending from various Celtic myths such as those found in the Mabinogion. Since their inception these stories have been in a constant state of retelling, making the Arthurian legends one of the few bodies of myth that is still considered “living” by folklorists.

The some of the most recognizable names from the legends include Arthur, Guenevere, Merlin, Excalibur, Lancelot, Gawain, Morgan le Fay, the Holy Grail, and Avalon. Sometimes the Arthurian tales focus on one or more of these characters and objects, and sometimes they only provide the background for the real story, much as Arthur’s court does for tales like Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

The AL have infiltrated most aspects of Western culture, with names like Excalibur, Avalon, King Arthur, and Camelot becoming attached to food brands, auto shops, housing subdivisions, and a host of other establishments. There are even bands and musical artists named after and devoted to Arthurian themes and stories, and there is no shortage of books, movies and television series devoted to these stories. Here are a few discussion starting questions, as well as a (brief) listing of some of the adaptations of the legends that have been produced. Feel free to include other version that you like that may not be included in my list. If it includes one of the Arthurian characters, Excalibur, or the Holy Grail, you can probably consider it Arthurian. :)

What is your favorite Arthurian tale? Which film/television version is your favorite? Why?

Do you have a favorite of Arthur’s Knights? Who and why? Least favorite?

(If different from the above) Who is your favorite Arthurian character? Why?

What is your favorite reference to the legends (e.g. an episode of a TV show that is dedicated to the legends, or a passing reference in a book not related to the legends, etc.)?

Is there a version of the legends that you do not like? Why?

If you were to write a version of the stories, what would you do to make your version different? Would you include or exclude certain characters/stories/themes? Would you introduce new ones? Would you take a different slant on a character?

Books:
The Sword in the Stone by T.H. White
The Once and Future King by T.H. White
I am Mordred by Nancy Springer
The Sword at Sunset by Rosemary Sutcliff
The Dark is Rising Sequence by Susan Cooper
That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis
The Pendragon Cycle by Stephen Lawhead
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court by Mark Twain
Lancelot by Walker Percy
Tortilla Flat by John Steinbeck
The Lost Years of Merlin series by T.A. Barron
The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley
The King’s Damosel by Vera Chapman
War in Heaven by Charles Williams
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight – a long poem by an unknown author; Tolkien wrote a translation that is readily available
“The Lady of Shalott” by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
The Idylls of the King by Alfred, Lord Tennyson (long poem)
Le Morte D’Arthur by Thomas Malory

TV Series/Films:
Merlin (Hallmark-produced miniseries)
Camelot (HBO series)
Merlin (BBC-produced series)
King Arthur
The Sword in the Stone
Excalibur
A Kid in King Arthur’s Court
Quest for Camelot
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

This is not to mention all of the TV shows that have dedicated episodes or arcs to Arthurian subjects. These include Stargate SG-1, Charmed, Justice League, and a multitude of others.

So go ahead and discuss away!

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration

6689 posts from forum 1.0

Topic starter Posted : July 11, 2012 12:53 pm
Shantih
(@shantih)
Member Moderator Emeritus

Oh! Oh! I don't think I can fully express how much I love Arthurian legends. I'll try answering your questions first ;))

What is your favorite Arthurian tale? Which film/television version is your favorite? Why?

My favourites are probably the Fisher King, and the death of Arthur (slightly morbid, I know). The Fisher King is slightly more obscure than some of the other legends, it tells of a wounded king who was charged with keeping the Holy Grail. His injury is tied to his lands, and they're slowly dying with him. Figuring out what's what with the Fisher King is a murky enterprise but I love trying to find examples of it and where it stemmed from. One of the best appearances of the Fisher King is in Troyes' Perceval :) His name is meant to come from how, because of his injury, his only way of surviving was to lie by a stream next to his castle and catch fish to eat.

The death of Arthur because it's what gives the entire legend the bittersweet taste. It's the ruin of all these grand deeds and the deaths of all these characters you loved. But it's slightly hopeful too ('the once and future king').

I'll admit now, I don't really like Arthurian adaptions. I couldn't really tell you why, I've just never felt any really capture the legends for me. I love The Sword in the Stone and Monty Python's the Holy Grail, but more because they're good films than because they're Arthurian ones :)

Do you have a favorite of Arthur’s Knights? Who and why? Least favorite?

Probably Gawaine. He comes across differently in each telling of the legend but I'm always interested in him. In The Death of King Arthur (not Malory's work, but an anonymous 1400's poem) he's Arthur's bravest knight, and when he dies Arthur's hope goes with him. The same thing happens in Tennyson's Idylls of the King, which has one of my favourite quotes -

O light upon the wind,
Thine, Gawain, was the voice - are these dim cries
Thine? or doth all the haunts the waste and wild
Mourn, knowing it will go with me?

I also love Gawaine in T. H. White's The Once and Future King. I had a really strong reaction to his character there, and for most of the book I hated him. He was violent and his loyalty to Arthur was questionable. At the end though, when his younger brother Gareth is killed, you see how much he's tried to keep everything together, and how much he loved his king but also his family, which is what caused him so much heartache. I always cry when he breaks down at the end of The Candle in the Wind and says 'Gareth was the best of us.' Every. Time.

What is your favorite reference to the legends (e.g. an episode of a TV show that is dedicated to the legends, or a passing reference in a book not related to the legends, etc.)?

I've always loved the Arthur references in Freak the Mighty (adapted as The Mighty).

Is there a version of the legends that you do not like? Why?

I tend to be less fond of modern tellings. A huge amount of my interest in the legends is trying to track them backwards through time, trying to find out where we first heard these legends, where they first came from. I couldn't stick with The Mists of Avalon, and while I admire what Rosemary Sutcliff was going for in The Sword at Sunset, I couldn't get into the world she created.

If you were to write a version of the stories, what would you do to make your version different? Would you include or exclude certain characters/stories/themes? Would you introduce new ones? Would you take a different slant on a character?

Gosh, after me just saying I prefer the older stuff, I'm not sure I'd want to rewrite anything ;)) I'd probably just over focus on characters and scenes I love. Introduce new characters? Heavens above.

Some other books I'd add to the list are -

The Death of King Arthur - Simon Armitage
This is the 1400's poem translated by Armitage. One of the oldest Arthur texts going and a wonderful, lively translation.
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Simon Armitage
Same poem, different translator. Less literal than Tolkein's, but with more of the original rhythm.
The Lancelot-Grail Cycle, aka The Post-Vulgate Cycle
Written around 1220-1230, there's a translation by Norris Lacy. These volumes are the source of most tellings of the legends since, including Malory. They're are huge books, and actually look and read a bit like the Bible, as you can see from me holding my copy of one of them -

The History of the Kings of Britain - Geoffrey of Monmouth
From the 1100's, this book tells the history of the Kings of Britain...with a huge dose of whimsy. Not accurate in the slightest, but a fascinating read and another early source of the legends.
Arthurian Romances - Chrétien de Troyes
Collection of French poems from 1100's. Another important source!

There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

Posted : July 11, 2012 2:48 pm
shastastwin
(@shastastwin)
Member Moderator Emeritus

I'll respond to your post, Shantih, and then answer my own questions.

First off, I can't believe I forgot to mention the Fisher King. That whole section of the legends is so much fun! I'll second your comments about modern adaptations generally letting me down. And the last two books on your list I was aware of but somehow failed to mention. The others sound great (though I'm not sure I have the patience to go through that gigantic Vulgate Cycle ;)) ).

What is your favorite Arthurian tale? Which film/television version is your favorite? Why?
Probably "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" and anything to do with Merlin; SGatGK because Gawain rocks in that tale and Merlin because I love his character so much I wrote a paper on him for my Arthurian Legends class in undergraduate.

Favorite adaptations: Hallmark's Merlin miniseries (for its characterization of Merlin), Sword in the Stone (it's Disney :P), and the BBC Merlin series (Not because it's 100% good, but because some of it is pretty interesting, and the character relationships are very well developed.)

Do you have a favorite of Arthur’s Knights? Who and why? Least favorite?

Usually Gawain is my favorite because of "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"; Mordred and Agravaine fall under my least favorite, because they are typically just plain wicked. Lancelot and I have a very mixed relationship. ;)

(If different from the above) Who is your favorite Arthurian character? Why?

Merlin. He's mysterious and powerful and so very human. In a lot of old tales he's a trickster and that makes me like him more.

What is your favorite reference to the legends (e.g. an episode of a TV show that is dedicated to the legends, or a passing reference in a book not related to the legends, etc.)?

The portrayal of Morgan le Fay and Mordred in the two-part episode of Justice League "A Knight of Shadows" was very well done. I also like the bits of Arthuriana that appear in the animated series Gargoyles.

Is there a version of the legends that you do not like? Why?

I tend to be less impressed by versions that try to make Arthur and/or Merlin into outright villains. I prefer them to be complex, and I understand the drive to make the usual villains like Mordred and Morgan le Fay seem more realistic and not just simply evil, but I don't care for turning characters who are meant to be heroic into villains. It doesn't improve the story.

If you were to write a version of the stories, what would you do to make your version different? Would you include or exclude certain characters/stories/themes? Would you introduce new ones? Would you take a different slant on a character?

While not exactly being a version of the tales, I have a series of books and stories that are heavily influenced by the legends. I take a lot of nods from White and the Hallmark Merlin in how I refer to the legends, but I throw a little of my own slant into it as well. I don't so much introduce new characters as bring together two or three sets that might not otherwise seem connected. The biggest struggles I have had have been with the killing of the May Day babies and the conception of Arthur, as those are the moments at which Arthur and Merlin are at their lowest and therefore those are the most difficult for me to write.

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration

6689 posts from forum 1.0

Topic starter Posted : July 12, 2012 10:59 am
Lady Arwen
(@wren)
The Mermod Moderator

After losing the first reply I wrote....take two. :P

What is your favorite Arthurian tale? Which film/television version is your favorite? Why?

I read the books over and over again as a child, and I really loved them all--except for the one where Guenevere nearly gets burned at the stake. That may be partially because I think every film that has that in their plot does a very bad job of interpreting it, as well as that particular tale basically begins "So, Arthur had a bunch of enemies and they decided to get even with him by....."

I do particularly remember the one about Sir Tristram's journey. It always struck me as interesting but slightly cruel.

Out of the films, I particularly appreciate King Arthur (spoiler alert. :P). I like the gritty-ness and the reality of it. Also, I appreciate that they looked to see where in history the legends might have come from. I especially liked Dagonet, and I felt so bad when he died. The film is very violent (arrow to the eyeball, anyone?) and Knightly wears next-to-nothing from time to time, but it still ranks as my favorite version. The only issue I had was that I preferred one of the alternate endings with Lucan. I understand why they chose to end it the way they did, but I really think they could have included Lucan's visit to Dagonet's grave.

Do you have a favorite of Arthur’s Knights? Who and why? Least favorite?

I like all of the knights, with the exception of Lancelot, oddly enough. He is my least favorite, partly because I hate how the films handle him (I especially dislike him in Camelot). I did appreciate the Lancelot in King Arthur, though. One of the few times I approve of him and his interpretation.

Is there a version of the legends that you do not like? Why?

I hate Camelot, as noted above. I felt like it was an overall bad resolution, the characters were shallow and poorly portrayed, and the ending was a disaster. I definitely prefer the ending in Mort d'Arthur!

If you were to write a version of the stories, what would you do to make your version different?

Hmmm...interesting question. I've never actually thought about writing my own version of the tales, although that would be an interesting project. If I did, I'm afraid I would take it much more in the "real world" direction than the legendary direction. Then again, I've never really given it much thought. I'd have to do some serious thinking before I started writing my own version. I would most likely write something with characters inspired by, rather than actually creating my own rendition of the tales.

Avatar thanks to AITB

Posted : July 13, 2012 2:56 pm
shastastwin
(@shastastwin)
Member Moderator Emeritus

Is there a version of the legends that you do not like? Why?

I hate Camelot, as noted above. I felt like it was an overall bad resolution, the characters were shallow and poorly portrayed, and the ending was a disaster. I definitely prefer the ending in Mort d'Arthur!

Are you referring to the HBO TV series or the musical version of The Once and Future King? I only mentioned the HBO series in my opener, but I wanted to be certain which you meant.

Your recommendation of the film King Arthur has made me want to see it even more. :)

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration

6689 posts from forum 1.0

Topic starter Posted : July 13, 2012 4:26 pm
Lady Arwen
(@wren)
The Mermod Moderator

Stwin, it was the musical, so no, not the HBO series. I very rarely watch TV, and I actually haven't watched any Arthurian shows. I actually was a bad girl and didn't read the list of books/films/shows. ;))

The film is incredibly well crafted. I've only watched the director's cut (I guess there is a PG version floating around somewhere out there? Not sure about that--never bothered to check), and I bought the soundtrack the next day. Let me know if/when you watch it and what you think!

Avatar thanks to AITB

Posted : July 13, 2012 5:17 pm
Shadowlander
(@shadowlander)
NarniaWeb Guru

Everything I know about Arthurian Legend I learned from Monty Python, including an enormous amount of data concerning European vs. African swallows and what air speed velocities needed to grasp a coconut by its husk. :)

Kennel Keeper of Fenris Ulf

Posted : July 15, 2012 7:36 am
shastastwin
(@shastastwin)
Member Moderator Emeritus

*is rather surprised this thread hasn't seen more action*

Currently I'm reading through two Arthurian series. One is Susan Cooper's the Dark is Rising Sequence (which I have read before) and the other is Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle (which I have not). Both authors make use of the legends' connections to Welsh myth and Wales, but what interests me right now is their different takes on where Christianity fits into the legends.

In the second book of Cooper's series, also called The Dark is Rising, the main character Will Stanton begins describing the battle that has been waged for countless centuries between the Dark and the Light. When he describes the Light to the local vicar (or pastor), the pastor assumes that Will means God (I think he might call it Deity or the Infinite, but his meaning is clear). Will corrects him with some kind of vague, relativistic equivalent to what the vicar is saying. (I don't recall the exact words, and I have not reached that part of the series on this read through.)

The impression I took from that scene when I first read it years ago was that Cooper felt Christianity was not essential to the Arthurian legends, even in the context of the time when most people place historical discussions of Arthur -- that is, during the late Roman Empire. Perhaps I'm overreading that scene, and perhaps Christianity isn't necessary to the legends and their context. I think that it is, especially given the prominence of the Holy Grail in the story.

I have even seen and read a number of adaptations in which Christianity is referred to as the New Religion, in contrast to paganism and druidism. While it would have been comparatively new to the region, by the time Arthur appears (much less Uther and Vortigern) Christianity is centuries old and has spread throughout the Roman Empire. Treating it like some evil usurper of the "glories" of paganism and "the Old Ways" (which would likely have included human sacrifice) seems to me to be a terribly biased way to present the material. Some version that include this are The Mists of Avalon and both the BBC and Hallmark series called Merlin, though the Hallmark version tends to see Christianity as mostly a threat to the pagan gods and the BBC series doesn't speak of Christianity but still refers to magic and paganism as "the Old Religion" (to which I often ask, "What's the new one?" :P).

In contrast, Lawhead's book Taliesin, the first in his Pendragon series, contains both pagan and Christian beliefs, but does so in a way that seems both historically accurate and respectful. His Christian characters display strong faith but remain human. His pagan characters exhibit the spectrum of reactions from blind faith to skepticism for both religions. I even suspect Lawhead was reading Lewis when he wrote this book because one character's description of how the Celts viewed their gods and goddesses sounds eerily like Lewis' description of myths and the True Myth. I was actually stunned to see how faithful to Christian rites Lawhead was in describing the baptism of one character. While I had heard before that he was a Christian, I still wondered how much he was going to try "getting away with" in a book that was mostly marketed to secular audiences. He dares quite a lot and does so tastefully.

All of that to bring in a new question: do you think that Arthurian retellings should include Christianity (through themes, symbols, characters and language) and how should it be included if so?

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration

6689 posts from forum 1.0

Topic starter Posted : July 27, 2012 9:39 am
Shantih
(@shantih)
Member Moderator Emeritus


the BBC series doesn't speak of Christianity but still refers to magic and paganism as "the Old Religion" (to which I often ask, "What's the new one?" :P).

True, I've often wondered about that ;)) Especially since the 'new' religion seems to have a lot of elements of paganism, like celebrating festivals like Beltaine and hand fasting.

I go both ways on this, I agree that in most tellings of the Arthurian legends Christianity is vital. Even in some of the oldest texts, like the Lancelot-Grail I mentioned, it all revolves around Christ (the Lancelot-Grail actually opens with Joseph of Arimathea bringing the Grail to Britain).
I really enjoy the Christian aspects of Arthur, and some of my favourite tellings revolve around it. The Idylls of the King makes a lot of the Christ-like aspects of Arthur's character, him being betrayed, etc.

At the same time, I don't think we should discount the pagan origins of Arthur. Most of the material comes from people realising just how well story carries Christian ideas and running with it, but the true sources of the legends come from Celtic sources. A lot of the inspiration for Arthurian legends comes from works like the Mabinogion, which comes from pre-Christian Celtic mythology. I generally think that the original Arthur elements existed in these kinds of stories, but Christianity arriving brought them all together, gave them one purpose and a coherent narrative.

Stories idolising the Celtic traditions are a bit questionable, but one thing to keep in mind is that Arthur wasn't non violent kind of guy. In most stories he unites Britain by crushing the Celts and Anglo-Saxons, in The Death of Arthur he remains proud of killing 'thousands' of heathens and wishes he had the time to wipe out some more. This sort of thing is usually presented as a great thing that Arthur did. Let's not forget that most newer (as in Le Morte D'Arthur onwards) legends involve him drowning all the babies born on the same day as Mordred to try and get rid of the threat (remind you of anyone Biblical?).

I'm fine with newer retellings including Christianity or paganism, or even a mix of both. Both have huge roles to play in the formation of the legends and I think if you want to get a rounded view of them you need to investigate both. Is Christianity necessary to telling the legends? Not quite. If you take it out a lot of the stuff we familiar with now doesn't make much sense (the Grail, etc), but it's possible to work backwards to the legends pagan roots and find a new way to tell it.

There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

Posted : July 27, 2012 10:40 am
FencerforJesus
(@fencerforjesus)
NarniaWeb Guru

One of my first exposures to Arthurian legends was the movie First Knight (needs to be added to the list). While the story and love triangle between Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is a bit cheezy at times the best parts of this movie is the musical score (Jerry Goldsmith is genius here) and the sword fight between Lancelot and Prince Malagant.

The fantasy movie Dragon Heart has Arthurian references too including Draco and Bowen's trip to Avalon in preparation for the main battle against King Einon.

Be watching for the release of my spiritual warfare novel under a new title: "Call to Arms" by OakTara Publishing. A sequel (title TBD) will shortly follow.

Posted : July 27, 2012 3:52 pm
johobbit
(@jo)
SO mod; WC captain Moderator

Please note that this Special Feature will be closing on Wednesday, August 29, after which you may talk about all things Arthur in the book or related movies threads.

And remember, if you have a suggestion for a Special Feature, don't wait until spring autumn, PM a Spare Oom mod ... now! :D


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7,237 posts from Forum 1.0

Posted : August 22, 2012 9:06 am
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