I believe in demons now because I was attacked by them. Luckily an old friend showed up at an opportune time.

We did implore you to stay away from Ouija boards and the like, Moonlight. I hope by 'old friend' showing up you mean the big JC.

Well kind of. At the culmination of things (you could read in prayer requests), I got a text from a guy I haven't heard from in months. He always used to party with me and was always into drinking and smoking and girls, etc. But he came to me and said that God had touched his life and he left all his partying ways behind and found a real hope. He said God had told him to talk to me about it. So then we talked for a few hours and he prayed for me. After he prayed the attacks stopped immediately and I was given a new peace of mind. It was just kind of shocking because he was the last guy I ever would have thought would become a Christian.

Anyways, just thought it would be relevant to share. Have a nice day everyone.

Ah, good stuff, Moonlight. I'll be praying for you.

Hi guys, I was reading Isaiah today (my favourite book of the Bible) and I came across a few verses I didn't know what to make of. They were:

And He said, "Go, and tell this people:

"Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed"

(Isaiah 6:9-10)

Here's what I don't understand: for much of the first half of Isaiah God is angry at Israel for not living by His laws, but here He seems to want Isaiah's messages to fall on deaf ears so that Israel will not repent and will be destroyed. So does He or does He not want Israel to repent? It seems like God is making repentance impossible (or at least very difficult) and then punishing His people for not repenting.

It reminds me of the scene in Till We Have Faces when the priest is telling the king that his barrenness is hateful to Ungit and the king replies, "Hateful to Ungit, is it? Why does Ungit not mend it then?"

It reminds me of the scene in Till We Have Faces when the priest is telling the king that his barrenness is hateful to Ungit and the king replies, "Hateful to Ungit, is it? Why does Ungit not mend it then?"

It also reminds me of the time that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and then punished him for the actions he had committed because of his hard heart. Romans says more about this.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

And so, we can see from scripture that God softens and hardens hearts. Since he is the Potter, He has control over what we are. And sometimes it is in His will for people to be hardened, or for people not to hear. Yet, we are still held responsible for our own actions.

This is what sparks so many debates among Christians - the source of a lot of the arguments between Calvinists and Arminians, the war of ideas between those who believe in "Predestination" and those who believe in "Free Will".

~Riella

So, I just decided to pop into this thread for a bit, because I was interested on you all's conversation about predestination. And I was wondering if someone could just spell out what predestination means..

For myself I believe in free will. Although some people base their belief on predestination from a verse like John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.." However I don't understand why that would mean that God chooses who he saves, when in John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. To me this means that God draws all men to him, but they also have the free will to believe in him or not.

I hope I haven't come off in a way that sounds like I just want to debate , I was just curious as to what you based your beliefs on.

And also if anyone else is interested, I'm currently reading a great book called Destined to Reign by Joseph Prince, and I personally think its something that every Christian should read. And it basically contains a lot of foundational teachings about what our amazing God has done for mankind.

So, I just decided to pop into this thread for a bit, because I was interested on you all's conversation about predestination. And I was wondering if someone could just spell out what predestination means..

For myself I believe in free will. Although some people base their belief on predestination from a verse like John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.." However I don't understand why that would mean that God chooses who he saves, when in John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. To me this means that God draws all men to him, but they also have the free will to believe in him or not.

I hope I haven't come off in a way that sounds like I just want to debate , I was just curious as to what you based your beliefs on.

Welcome to the conversation, MagicApple. The predestination vs. free will argument is one of the most debated subjects on this thread, and previous threads of the same kind. It pops up so often that, usually, you need only look a few pages back to find a conversation on it.

There are a good many scriptures in support of "Predestination". Though I have to tell you, when most people hear the word "predestination", they get the wrong idea of what we believe. They often get a kind of mental image of people being puppets on strings with God controlling them. And that isn't the case at all. In fact, we believe that both free will and God's predestination work together (which I'll explain a few paragraphs down).

Now, I'd like to point out that John 3:16 doesn't have much bearing on the issue of whether we come to Christ by ourselves or through His predestination. It says that Christ died so that whoever believes in Him will be saved. This is true, of course. But the real question is, how do we come to believe in Him in the first place? On our own, or with God's help?

Let me give you a silly example. Say that there's a girl who loves horses, and has a talent riding them. People will say, "God gave her a love for horses". And I believe they're right. Now, when she goes out and, for the first time, decides to take horse riding lessons, she's doing that of her own free will. But why is she deciding to do this? She does it because of her love of horses -- a love which God gave her. If He hadn't given her that love of horses, she probably would not have chosen to take riding lessons. And so, she chose to take riding lessons of her own free will. But God, at the same time, was the one who originally decided that she was meant to love and ride horses. He predestined it. And she also had free will.

Therefore, we act of our own free will, but we act according to things within us which God either controls directly or influences indirectly. Likewise, when we become a Christian, we do so of our own free will. But we choose to do this because of a love for God that God put in us. If God hadn't put that love in us (which He doesn't with some people), we wouldn't have chosen to come to Him.

We have free will; but nevertheless, we are always slaves to something -- either God, or our own sin nature. If God puts a love for Him inside us, we will choose to follow Him of our own free will. But if He doesn't put that love for Him in us, we then act according to our sin nature and choose to reject Him. So, you could say that we choose... but God chooses what we choose.

A lot of it boils down to man's depravity. Romans 8:7 says:

The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

(Boldness added by me.)
Before we become Christians, we are still slaves to our sin nature. We are naturally hostile to God. As the above scripture says, we don't submit to Him, nor can we do so. We are so steeped in sin, we can't choose to follow God, unless we have His help.

As the scriptures I posted in my last post said, God has made it clear to us through his word that He, at times, hardens hearts. He hardened Pharaoh's heart. In Reepicheep's post was a scripture that said He even closes the ears of people so that, when they hear His word, they won't believe it. The same thing happened with Jesus Christ, when He told parables. In Mark 4, it says:

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

In the beginning, Adam and Eve sinned against God, so that they, and all their descendants (us) were worthy of going to Hell. The just and fair thing to do would be to send everyone to Hell. And God will do that with some people. But God picked mercy over complete justice and fairness, and chose to save some of us. That's why He sent His son to die in our place, so that those people all over the world who He decided to save could escape Hell and spend eternity with Him.

But though it is in His will to save some of us, it is also in His will that some won't be saved. This is often unknown/disbelieved by a lot of Christians, since they recall a scripture that says it's in His will that none should perish. What they don't often remember is that, in context, that scripture is referring to people that are already saved:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

As I said, it is His will that some will go to Hell, as they (and all of us) deserve. It is His will that some of us will be saved despite what we deserve. But the Bible makes it clear that He is the one who decides that. He is the Potter. As I quoted previously in Romans:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

(boldness added by me)

~Riella

That's messed up. Christ died to save all people, not some. If His sacrifice wasn't all-encompassing, there's little power in the cross. Please don't make the Bible sound like it says something it doesn't.

That's messed up. Christ died to save all people, not some. If His sacrifice wasn't all-encompassing, there's little power in the cross. Please don't make the Bible sound like it says something it doesn't.

Predestination does not weaken the power of the cross. God has the power to save all people, if He so desires. It's a matter of God's will, not His power.

And I'm not making the Bible sound like it's saying something it doesn't. I'm explaining my view of scripture, as I was asked to by MagicApple.

We may disagree, W4J, but that's alright! Just because I believe in Predestination, and you don't, that doesn't mean I'm purposely trying to twist scripture, or make it sound like it's saying something it doesn't. It certainly isn't my intention to deceive anyone (much the opposite!). Calvinists have always been welcome in this thread before, such as Dr. Ransom and TBG -- two people who have beliefs very similar to mine -- and with whom you, if I'm not mistaken, have had debates on the subject in the past. And I have to be truthful about what I believe the Bible says.

~Riella

Predestination is a subject that gets me quite hot under the collar, because it convinces me that it is God's will that I should go to Hell, and no amount of praying, pleading or repenting is going to make the slightest difference - God has not planted a love for Him in me, so I'm doomed, end of story. It doesn't matter how often people quote John 3:16 at me, it doesn't appear to be able to shake that conviction.

Predestination is a subject that gets me quite hot under the collar, because it convinces me that it is God's will that I should go to Hell, and no amount of praying, pleading or repenting is going to make the slightest difference - God has not planted a love for Him in me, so I'm doomed, end of story. It doesn't matter how often people quote John 3:16 at me, it doesn't appear to be able to shake that conviction.

It doesn't quite work that way. If someone is wanting to become a Christian, and they're praying, pleading, and repenting, then I would say God has placed a love for Him in them (though it might still be in its early stages, and the person may or may not be aware of it yet). I mean, why would they be praying, pleading, and repenting in the first place, unless they already had something within them that cared about God or His laws?

I don't think it's best for anyone to assume they're predestined for Hell. I don't think there's really any reason for someone to assume this.

~Riella

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

These are tough verses (but thanks for pointing them out, Riella ). I understand that God, by His very nature, must be beyond our comprehension at times, but it's still tough when issues like these come up. It's one of those things you have to accept by faith, I guess.

As far as the predestination vs. free will debate, I don't think they negate each other and that they somehow work together.

God is Sovereign and he has given us free will. God directs our lives, but he's given us free choice. Neither overrides the other, both are true. Human wisdom would indicate that this is impossible but this holy paradox makes sense if you read the Bible as a whole.

God is Sovereign and he has given us free will. God directs our lives, but he's given us free choice. Neither overrides the other, both are true. Human wisdom would indicate that this is impossible but this holy paradox makes sense if you read the Bible as a whole.

That sounds like the point my post was making, so it sounds like maybe we agree on more that we think? Just to clarify, was your post in response to me, someone else, or were just agreeing with the conclusion Reepicheep made?

~Riella