Tess, have you ever considered the fact that God can do anything he wants to?

Of course I have, and I thought that I proved that that just can't be so in my post. After all, God can't do logically impossible things, like create a boulder so big that he can't lift it.

God had to create the universe in order to have physics, so if he could create the universe before there were such a thing as physics don't you think he could bend the space-time continuum at will?

If I'm going to look at this from the perspective of a theist, I would say that first, God created the singularity (the seed of the Big Bang). Then God created the laws of physics, which caused the Big Bang to be set off and the universe to form like it has. But now that God has created the laws of physics, he shouldn't be able to break them.

If God could say "Let there be also be stars" and badda BANG badda BOOM, All the sudden a couple hundred billion gigantic burning balls of hydrogen and helium appear in the sky. If he could do this, then couldn’t his son create a couple thousand fish and loaves? Where is the logic in that reasoning?

The logic in that reasoning is that God created the framework for the universe before he created the laws of physics, and then set the universe in motion after physics were created.

Have you ever considered that God works outside the realm of physics and that he can do whatever he darn well pleases?

But he darn well can't, as I demonstrated in my previous post. If you need more examples...
"Can God divide by zero?"
"Can God commit a sin?"
"Can God kill himself?"

The rules of Science are what I call "Most-of-the-time" rules. it's what the Universe follows on a day-to-day basis. But of course God, who created these rules, can stop them for a second and do something which would not normally happen naturally, if a situation called for that.

There's just something about that that doesn't make sense to me. It feels to me like if God set up the universe and had a master plan, that breaking the laws of science is sort of like "correcting mistakes", if you will.

There's also one very interesting passage in the Bible that suggests that miracles are in fact futile.

Luke 16:19-31

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’

The rules of Science are what I call "Most-of-the-time" rules. it's what the Universe follows on a day-to-day basis. But of course God, who created these rules, can stop them for a second and do something which would not normally happen naturally, if a situation called for that.

There's just something about that that doesn't make sense to me. It feels to me like if God set up the universe and had a master plan, that breaking the laws of science is sort of like "correcting mistakes", if you will.

He isn't correcting any mistake. The Laws of Science were not a mistake. And they are still in effect. He wasn't correcting anything. I'm not sure what to say, because I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...

And with that Bible passage, what about it makes you feel that miracles are futile?

And, by the way, what makes you think God can't divide by zero, or the other things you mentioned? As far as I know, the only thing God can't do is sin, because He has no sin in Him...

~Riella

And with that Bible passage, what about it makes you feel that miracles are futile?

Because in the parable, the man in hell asks Abraham to have somebody rise for the dead and evangelize to his sinful brothers, since a miracle like rising from the dead is sure to get their attention. But Abraham says no, it won't make a difference. Jesus is essentially saying, if people don't listen to the prophets and the message of God, they won't be convinced by God committing miracles either. And yet Jesus commits a lot of miracles and even rises from the dead himself...

And, by the way, what makes you think God can't divide by zero, or the other things you mentioned? As far as I know, the only thing God can't do is sin, because He has no sin in Him...

Because dividing by zero is logically impossible. It just can't be done! It's like saying, "Can God change the value of pi to equal 7.2?" No, he can't, because the ratio of a circumference to a diameter is built into the very fabric of the universe. All of geometry would fall apart if pi could "change" value. Math is something you just can't mess with.

And if you accept that God can divide by zero, you also have to accept that he can create a taco so big he can't eat it, and other things that are just impossible even for an omnipotent being.

Tess, logically God, being well, God can do anything. So, if he wanted to divide by zero he could simply change the whole mathematic system of the universe, rewrite history and all the while play thumb war with Michael. But that would totally take out the whole blind faith part of Christianity. So he chooses not to do it.

And technically, God has killed himself already. Cause in Gethsemane he told himself (the Father part of himself: p ) "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

So basically, he killed himself because it was his own will that he die. As confusing as that seems.

And as far as miracles being futile, I'm not sure how it relates to this arguement. But I will say this. Miracles were preformed for the faithful to teach them more about Jesus and his awesome power, not to convert the non faithful. In my opinion. So in a sense, miracles are futile.

And with that Bible passage, what about it makes you feel that miracles are futile?

Because in the parable, the man in hell asks Abraham to have somebody rise for the dead and evangelize to his sinful brothers, since a miracle like rising from the dead is sure to get their attention. But Abraham says no, it won't make a difference. Jesus is essentially saying, if people don't listen to the prophets and the message of God, they won't be convinced by God committing miracles either. And yet Jesus commits a lot of miracles and even rises from the dead himself...

The question of whether a miracle is futile or not depends on the situation (like most things). The miracle the man in Hell was asking for would have been futile -- which is why, you'll notice, that it didn't happen. But just because one miracle would have been futile if it had hapenned, that doesn't mean that all miracles are futile -- especially if God deemed they would help in some way. Christ had to rise from the Dead. It proved he wasn't a liar. Christianity hinges on that point, so it certainly wasn't futile. The miracles Christ did caused many people to come him. I'd say that did great good. But in the situation of the man in Hell, if he did get his wish, then it wouldn't have done any good that particular time.

And, by the way, what makes you think God can't divide by zero, or the other things you mentioned? As far as I know, the only thing God can't do is sin, because He has no sin in Him...

Because dividing by zero is logically impossible. It just can't be done! It's like saying, "Can God change the value of pi to equal 7.2?" No, he can't, because the ratio of a circumference to a diameter is built into the very fabric of the universe. All of geometry would fall apart if pi could "change" value. Math is something you just can't mess with.

I believe he can if He so chose. If you think things like that are impossible for an omnipotent Being, I'm not sure you fully understand what omnipotent means. He certainly can change the value of pi to 7.2. After all, He's the one who decided what it would equal in the first place. I doubt He will change it, since He made it what it is for a reason. But if He wanted to change it He could. If He wanted to make "up" down, and "down" up, he could. If He wanted to make us all Giraffes, he could. If He wanted to make it so we don't exist, or even that we never existed, He could. He's omnipotent.

And if you accept that God can divide by zero, you also have to accept that he can create a taco so big he can't eat it, and other things that are just impossible even for an omnipotent being.

I don't think I have to accept one thing just because I accepted another thing. Each thing is an entirely different example. This example might be one thing God "can't" do (But I could even be wrong about that.), but only because it's a contradiction -- the biggest contradiction anyone can make. You're basically saying "Can God create something bigger than Himself?" It's pretty much an imaginary idea. It's almost in the same section as the statement, "Everything I say is a lie, including this sentence." Only, it probably even goes beyond that level.

It's not just an illogical thing, as you say. It goes beyond being illogical, and more into a flaw or mistake in our own logic.

~Riella

Tess (may I call you Tess? you, and anyone else, can call me GM (or gm) for short ), what you're getting caught on here is the difference between laws of logic and laws of physics- analytic and synthetic statements.

Analytic statements boil down to definitions: a triangle has three sides because that's the definition of a triangle. For God to create a four-sided triangle is impossible not because his powers are limited but because the statement is nonsensical.

The "Laws" of physics, OTOH, are simply conclusions we have made about observations of this Universe- they could have been different.

Therefore God can easily intervene and break or override them, because the miracles He performs are things which do not violate the laws of logic.

Could he have resurrected Lazarus- sure. Could he have resurrected Lazarus without bringing him back to life? No, because that's what the definition of "resurrected" is.

To say God couldn't do that is to talk about a misuse of human language, not a restriction on God's power.

One thing we ought to understand here is that there is a difference between "Cannot" and "Will not". God wrote the laws of physics and he is certainly not bound by them. Could he divide by zero? Yes, he could. He is infinite and he knows what that asymptote really does as the division gets closer and closer to infinity. That doesn't mean he will.

As for miracles, the feeding of the five thousand certantly is a miracle. Have you ever tried to feed a large group of people? I have (or should I say, been involved with the behind the scenes of a large feeding). The largest ones I have done is a hot dog feeding in Mexico, serving about 600 people. We served a hot dog, some animal crackers, and an apple to each person. That's a lot of food. Jesus feed 5,000 men, NOT including women and children. That's like giving a single meal to a small city. Not an easy thing to do.

But the two large feedings in the Bible are not the only time that it's happened. I've witnessed a multiplication of food personally multiple times. It's quite a sight to watch finite objects (such as hamburger buns for sloppy joes, apples, and plates) simply not run out until every person is fed. Sometimes we have leftovers such as in the Bible. Other times the very last bun and apple would go to the very last person in line. And since I've worked behind the scenes for these feedings, I know we did not have sufficient supplies for the given crowd and I know re-inforcements did not arrive.

Are miracles futile? Absolutely not. God would not do them if they were futile. In regards to the parable mentioned above and how Abraham said if someone from the dead rose, the family of the rich man would not listen. Jesus experienced that as well. The pharasees frequently demanded for a sign or a miracle and then they would believe. Jesus wouldn't do it because he knew their hearts. They wouldn't belive a miracle if they saw it, not because of the lack of power of the miracle, but because they simply made a choice that they wouldn't believe it period. We saw that in the outreach event my Intervarsity Chapter put on this week (I mentioned at the end of the previous page). There were people who showed up to the talks about "Can a Scientist believe in God?" and "Evidences for the Resurrection of Jesus" who saw the evidences made very clear, well documented, and clearly stated, and they fought it tooth and nail. Their arguments became more clearly flawed to the rest of the audience and though they had the truth right in thier face, they refused to believe it. That is what this parable is addressing.

We begged our friend who was driving the truck to turn around but he was the only one who didn't mind it and he parked the truck across the railroad tracks by the road and got out and walked back into the woods. While we were waiting in the truck a train came and we screamed for him to come back while we all got out of the truck. He came back and moved the truck just in time but it was scary.

After reading this, the one piece of advice I can give is to try and find friends with an IQ higher than a turnip. Whether or not demons can harm you, take it from an old railroad man- trains can kill.

Graymouser, excellent point. I had missed that about parking across the train track.

Tesseract, I am responding to your discussion question about God breaking the rules of physics when doing miracles. The book Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott helped me understand one way it might be that He does it. If you imagine people in a 2-dimensional "flat" world and then a 3-dimensional being who could interact with them on their plain of reference. If someone on the flat plain had a cancer the person in the 3-dimensional world could reach in and pluck it out. The 3 dimensional being could walk in and out of their plain and be seeming to appear and disappear out of nowhere to the 2-dimensional residents.

So when food multiplies, it may not be matter from nothing, it might be matter shifting from another dimension.

Well I can't really defend the intelligence of this friend because it was a stupid thing to do, however, I love him like a brother and even though he is crazy I probably won't stop hanging out with him because he's always up for adventures and no matter what happens we always have fun when he's there.

Edit: about the topic at hand I'm not entirely sure about.

We were discussing in the chatroom how Jesus' death covers all sin. Jesus did not spend an eternity in hell so how is one death able to buy out multiple eternities in hell? Does anyone else have an explanation other than "he's perfect." Because I fail to understand that reasoning.

@MLD- I can think of a few reasons, one of which being that he's perfect But since you don't want that one here are a few more:

1) Because he gave up his life willingly. There is a huge difference between being made to die for someone else, and doing so by your own choice. To me at least, it seems like that would be much more valueable. (Let me guess somebody is about to ask, "well, if that's the case why can't it just be anyone of us who does it?" I'd have to point back to the "He's Perfect arguement" and point #2...)

2) Because he's God. If your going to put a price on life... (although noone ever should, but this is the Devil we are talking about here...) I have a feeling Satan would find Jesus/God's life much more valueable than a human's... I can already tell I'm gonna have a hard time explaining it, so let me ask this. In LWW, the WW accepted Aslan's sacrifice in place of Edmund's correct? But would she have done this, if say a centaur offered his sacrifice? What made Aslan's life so valuable to her?

(edited)

I'm just jumping in here to respond to TBG's post from a couple weeks ago. You stumped me pretty good there and I still haven't thought up a good answer without somewhat embracing metaphysics. The only answer I can think of is that we've happened to stumble on the right answer of determinism but we can't really know that we did, but I'm not very happy with that answer.

I'm just jumping in here to respond to TBG's post from a couple weeks ago .

Given that TBG is such an alarmingly learned and prolific poster, cold you be a bit more specific?

Jesus did not spend an eternity in hell so how is one death able to buy out multiple eternities in hell? Does anyone else have an explanation other than "he's perfect." Because I fail to understand that reasoning.

It is a hostage situation. Christ's death was the ransom for our lives. It doesn't make sense because evil is not rational. Satan hated Christ and wanted Him dead. I don't think that the devil thought that Christ would conquer death and rise again. Its why Jesus is our hope because He broke the bonds that held Him and those bonds of sin hold us. And because Jesus saved Himself, we believe He can save us too. We refer to Jesus as our Savior.

...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Mathew 20:28 NIV

*edits

On the issue of Jesus's suffering, a few days ago someone on another forum made the comment that part of his suffering was not only dying on the cross but being tormented by Satan when he descended into Hell for the three days.

That took me by surprise: I've never come across this belief before. I always assumed that it was standard Christian belief that jesus went down into Hell in triumph- The "harrowing of Hell" (which Lewis mentions in "Screwtape"), and some hold that it was at this time he brought the righteous Israelites to Heaven.

I know some people disagree with the descent into Hell based on what Jesus said to the repentant bandit during the crucifixion, but this is the first time I've heard of the idea that he suffered during this time.

Is this held by any particular denomination or was it taught by any particular Christian leader?