One side or the other can't be "proved" with a Magic Bullet Verse, or a list of several (oh no, I haven't seen those ever on NarniaWeb, not at all ). Rather, one must do one's best to read Scripture comprehensively and take all of its truths into account, in balance.

Also, Scripture must interpret Scripture, not emotions/teaching/experience interpreting Scripture. And more than likely, the clearer-meaning Scripture passages (such as Romans 8-9) provide much-needed perspective for an oft-used argument (such as "whosoever will may come! that means everyone!") based on, say, John 3:16.

(Holds back on more specifically asking everyone about the Brit Hume comments about -- wow, imagine this -- how Christianity is primarily about redemption and other religions are not, and how it is true while other religions aren't, only until this topic has faded out a bit ... )

Now how does either free will or predestination figure in all of this? I wouldn't consider for one second that beautifying the impossible is part of the Almighty's scheme of things, nor would I consider that getting a haircut is part of the Almighty's area of expertise. However, some might regard the ease I had in getting an appointment as something beyond chance and my own choices. After all, how could I have known at the beginning of the day, that there would be a vacancy, and that it was due to someone or other's cancellation?

You think it beneath God to arrange for you to get your hair cut? Far from it! God is Jahveh Jireh the provider. God's providence extends to the very smallest particles: there is not even an electron in the whole of creation over which God is not sovereign and which God does not care about. Providence affects not only our choices, but the choices of those around us.

You say that it was a free will decision that made it possible for you to get a haircut. Yet even that decision was foreordained by a God who knew you wanted to do something useful--is that so unbelievable? Are we saying that the God who stood the universe still so that Joshua could triumph over the Canaanites cannot do this? Are we saying that He does not care? Do we have so little faith? Sometimes I wonder whether it's not the big miracles that make Christianity hard to believe, but the idea that our everyday lives are guided by a providence far beyond our finite understanding.

TBG

LITD, I see that you've arrived back on NarniaWeb with the usual quiet, unassuming subtlety. Welcome back!

Thanks, Dr. Elwin!

The problem is that this makes God first, even meaner (for He doesn't intervene to stop horrible things from happening even when they're in the present, i.e., the Holocaust) and secondly, stupid. But those reasons aside, Scripture easily refutes the idea that God cannot know the future perfectly.

Well, true, He doesn't intervene with these "terrible" things that happen, but, Man brought it upon themselves, and who is to say that God did not lead to the decline of the German Empire? Why must we believe it is because of America's Military Power and not of God's Power that brought victory to the Allies... And plus, even if God did just sit back and let all this happen, He does everything for His glory, right? So if that means letting Jews die terrible, terrible deaths in gas chambers, then so be it! Perhaps our finite minds just can't comprehend the glory that is, to God, obvious! Glory to God in the highest, right?

LITD

Interesting discussion going on here. It is almost as heated as the last episode I discussed. lol Anyway, I believe that man does indeed have free will. The reason I believe this is that there are some things in this world that are definitely NOT God's will (i.e. SIN!). If everything worked according to God's will (we don't have fee will), then that would essentially make Him both good and evil. If it were true, then God LOVED it when Holocaust happened. If it were true, then God loves it when a person in the prime of their life and at the top of their game, loving God all the while, gets into a care crash and dies. Why would he love it? Because it was his will. NO NO NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT GOD IS LIKE! He gives everyone a choice.

That said, what God does do is He puts all his effort into pulling us to him. He constantly brings circumstances into our life where we have the choice to acknowledge and follow him. He fights the Devil on our behalf, like, I don't know, Jesus dying on the cross for us. God gives up every opportunity and every chance to follow him, but we are the one who chooses.

If God influences everything, then was the Devil revolting part of God's intentions? No way, that's not God. He cannot intend bad for anything. However, It says that at the beginning of time the Lamb was slain. What does that tell us? It tells us that God knew all and that he planned to restore what the enemy took away, with interest. He didn't want the Devil to revolt and he certainly influence him to do so, but he knew he would, so he planned for it.

Like I said, God knows all, but what makes you think that everything He knows he likes? In others words, What makes you think that everything God knows is his will? In other words, there are some things in this world which happen that God didn't intend to happen, but, of course, God had already planned for it. I rest my case therefore, man has free will and there are some things that we do which God didn't intend we should do, but we are covered (if we choose to serve him) because he has already planned for that.

Interesting discussion going on here. It almost as heated as my last episode. lol Anyway, I believe that man does indeed have free will. The reason I believe this is that there are some things in this world that are definitely NOT God's will (i.e. SIN!).

Well, everything that happens has to be in God's Will, or else God is merely just an observer of the world, He merely lets the Sinful Men run around, and loses all His sovereignty, so how is He even God anymore?

If everything worked according to God's will (we don't have fee will), then that would essentially make Him both good and evil. If it were true, then God LOVED it when Holocaust happened. If it were true, then God loves it when a person in the prime of their life and at the top of their game, loving God all the while, gets into a care accident and dies. Why would he love it? Because it was his will. NO NO NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT GOD IS LIKE! He gives everyone a choice.

Again, everything does have to follow God's Will, or else, He really isn't God anymore... and, sorry to say, God didn't necessary love when the Holocaust happened, but He certainly allowed it to happen, and, apparently, it was to His Glory! God may give everyone a choice, I would rather not get in a debate about that, but God did in fact let the Holocaust happen, by His Will, Man's actions cannot over-come God's Will... and the Holocaust must've been to God's glory.

If God influences everything, then was the Devil revolting part of God's intentions? No way, that not what God is. He cannot intend bad for anything. However, it says that at the beginning of time the Lamb was slain. What does that tell us? It tells us that God knew all and that he planned to restore what the enemy took away, with interest. He didn't want the Devil to revolt and he certainly influence him to do so, but he knew he would, so he planned for it.

Actually, it was God's Will to let the Devil revolt, it must have been, who else's could it have been? It couldn't have been Man's, they didn't let Satan in the garden, God did, He let loose the opportunity of Sin... by this theory . Many theologians say He does these things for a greater good, or to show all sides of Him, His righteousness, His mercy, etc.

Like I said, God knows all, but what makes you think that everything He knows he likes? In others words, What makes you think that everything God knows is his will? In other words, there are some things in this world that happen that God didn't intend to happen, but, of course, God has already planned for it. I rest my case therefore, man has free will and there are some things that we do that God didn't intend we should do, but we are covered (if we choose to serve him) because he has already planned for that.

Again, you are basically saying that God has no control over the whims of Man, and He sits in His throne and cries all day about how Man is messing everything up... does that seem like God? ... And, again, He doesn't necessarily like everything that He allows to happen, it just brings Him glory.

Though, this is all how I see it, And I'm just crazy ol' LITD.

No, I can't accept that all things in this world are God's will. THAT MAKES HIM BOTH GOOD AND BAD! There is a difference between something being God's will and God allowing something to happen. Just because God allows something to happen it doesn't mean that he wills it so. The thing of it is, he has planned everything out so that no matter what the devil does to try and change the end result of "We win" will be fruitless. You see, God takes everything that the enemy does against him, which he obviously didn't will, and switches it to work for a greater glory. The enemy therefore, is screwed, no matter how much "ill will" he does 'cause God will just "flip it". This view therefore, doesn't say that everything is God's will (which has to be so or else God is both good and evil), but says that God will use everything for his will.

Hello all. Boy, I'm gone for a few days and the conversation changes again.

I would say that I believe that the Bible is clear that God has a specific will for each of us, but that we also have responsibility for our actions. The fact that it is pre-determined, fore-ordained, etc., does not take away from our actions. I think some people have this idea that the Bible has God moving us all like puppets on a string.

This is why, as much as I agree with him on his overall Calvinistic beliefs, I have to question TBG's analogy about the author and his book idea. I also question my favorite author, and the man whose works most developed my philosophical ideas, namely CS Lewis himself. Lewis also used in one of his books, Miracles, I believe, he used a similar analogy.

The problem though, is that the analogy makes God inherently unjust. At least in the context of the Bible, I find a God who expects man to do well, and holds him accountable for not doing so. Now, does that mean that God could not "control" man, if He wished? No, obviously not. God can do whatever He wills, including making us his zombies. The point is that He does not do so. He does allow us to choose.

Now, as for what that choice is, and whether it is free, I really don't know. In the Bible, Christ makes predictions that Peter will be a great leader, that he will be crucified like the Lord, and that he will first deny the Lord. Did Christ make Peter do any of these things? Did they happen, and could have happened otherwise? The answer to both questions is no. He did not make Peter do anything, and Peter could not have chosen otherwise.

Both are true Scripturally. Man is a free being, but only does according to God's Will. Now, maybe this is because of God working to change hearts by opening eyes partway. A Doctrinal concept my (heavily Calvinist) pastor preached when I was a kid, is that man has no free will, in a way, because he is inclined to sin. He can not do good as a natural state, but evil. He knows good, but will not do so. I think this is over done, and throws out centuries of Natural Law/Natural Rights theory, but it is useful for a point. Man is inclined to evil and sin (our sin nature in Scriptures), and God can move our actions not by making us puppets, but by opening our eyes, or allowing them to stay closed (in the moral sense). Now, I know that GB will say that that means that we have no free will, but we truly do. We know the difference between right and wrong. The fact that God chooses whom to help and not help changes nothing of that central equation.

So, how do we reconcile these notions, because I doubt my idea is even close to what God will tell the Elect in Heaven, if we even care to ask then that is. The Scripture says so. I am not trying to be anti-intellectual, but merely pointing out thGrrat the Scriptures are supposed to not be entirely able to be understood. They are supposed to be mysterious. I also want to counsel some measured restraint herein. We must always make certain that our ideas and interpretations of the hows of the truths of Scripture are not equated with the actual truths. Man is responsible for his actions, God has a plan for man, are both truths of Scripture that are not arguable. The why behind them is, and none of our theories have the force of Scripture. I would argue that Calvinism does, because there are verses to prove it, but there are so many different strains of it, that again we are faced with the hows of the whys of Scripture. Let us be humble in these endeavors.

Great debate all. I've really enjoyed it so far.

I bid you all adieu.

No, I can't accept that all things in this world are God's will. THAT MAKES HIM BOTH GOOD AND BAD! There is a difference between something being God's will and God allowing something to happen. Just because God allows something to happen it doesn't mean that he wills it so. The thing of it is, he has planned everything out so that no matter what the devil does to try and change the end result of "We win" will be fruitless. You see, God takes everything that the enemy does against him, which he obviously didn't will, and switches it to work for a greater glory. The enemy therefore, is screwed, no matter how much "ill will" he does 'cause God will just "flip it". This view therefore, doesn't say that everything is God's will (which has to be so or else God is both good and evil), but says that God will use everything for his will.

I rather like this viewpoint. Among other things, it shows why WW2 was a righteous war for the Allies, even though many of those who participated on the Allied side hadn't fully comprehended the evil of Hitler, at any rate. In that particular war, the right side did prevail.

By the way, there is an incident where what you say makes perfect sense. Pharaoh Necho was rushing with his troops to defend the Assyrians at Carchemish, one of the most decisive battles of World History. Josiah, a righteous King of Judah, got in his way. God made Necho remark that he had no quarrel with Josiah, so why not let him pass instead of getting in his way? That was according to the Biblical account.

But Josiah, otherwise remembered as a righteous King, refused to listen to Necho, and was killed in the resulting battle. Josiah's death cost Judah its independence and in the end, its very existence, since Pharaoh Necho and the Assyrians were defeated at Carchemish, and Pharaoh Necho on the way back to Egypt, took hostage Josiah's eldest son, besides looting Jerusalem. The way was prepared for Nebuchadnezzar only a few short years afterwards.

You think it beneath God to arrange for you to get your hair cut? Far from it! God is Jahveh Jireh the provider. God's providence extends to the very smallest particles: there is not even an electron in the whole of creation over which God is not sovereign and which God does not care about. Providence affects not only our choices, but the choices of those around us.

Yes I do think that the Good Lord wouldn't be too worried about whether or not I got a haircut the moment I thought about it, when there are so many other more important things going on in the world. I'm not Samson, am I? And cleanliness is next to Godliness. At the time it was no skin off my teeth one way or another whether I could be fitted in at that particular time, since I had thought out alternative arrangements.

Yes, it might have mattered to the hairdresser who wanted to compensate financially for the cancellation, but I wasn't to know that, and I doubt she is the praying kind. I know the things I would pray to God for, such as the safe return of family members at various times when they are unusually late, or even that our two beloved pet cats will come back ASAP when they go AWOL. And whilst I would most earnestly pray that job interviews etc go well, I'm not particularly worried by minor things like haircuts otherwise. That is like hoping someone else will do the washing up, isn't it?

I think it is rather too simplistic to say either humans have free will or everything is predetermined. I have heard several theories about how God can know what is going to happen and yet we can still have free will. Lewis suggests that God knows what is going to happen because he is outside of time and sees it as it happens. Another theory is that God knows each person so well that he knows what choice they will make before they make it. Another is that it is sort of like a game. There are certain rules but within those rules the player is free to do as he or she wants. I think it is rather unfair to blame God for the evil in the world / say that he created evil. Really, what he did was create creatures who are able to think for themselves.

Fair point! Couldn't have put it better myself.