That said, I don't think it's "our fault" if someone isn't led to Christ. It's God's job to change hearts, not ours. While we definitely should spread the gospel as much as we can, the whole attitude of "we need to tell people because we'll be blamed if we don't!" is essentially putting our efforts higher than God's plan. We have no power to change a heart - only He can do that.

(1) It is God's job to change hearts - not ours: I'm in total agreement!
(2) It is our responsibility to lead others to Christ. That is our God-given mission as Christians! If we don't live up to the gifts given to us by the creator, we will be held accountable for them! It could very well be our fault that someone isn't led to Christ. God puts us in position to change hearts and lead them to Christ. We need to respond to His calling to assist God in His mission!
(3) This mission to lead others to Christ and our failure to live up to that responsibility being our fault doesn't put our efforts higher than God! God uses His creation (us) to formulate change in the world. With God we can do anything!
(4) God is merciful in our failures. He will forgive us if we fail to lead others to Christ even if we do not respond to the call to do so. However, we will also be held accountable for the failure to lead others to Christ because God is also just. We can fail by our actions, but we can also fail by our inaction to respond to the grace bestowed upon us through the Holy Spirit.

BTW, it's good to stop by to say "hey" after a long hiatis.

When I think of the word 'drama' I think of either conflict or an act (staged play like in a live theater, a skit, or something like that). So I'm not quite sure what to make of that right now. Using the latter of those two meaning I think of, drama can be worship and worship can occur using a drama. I often use a drama to illustrate spiritual warfare using my fencing gear as a visual aid. This is an act of worship, because it shows how God can overcome the forces of darkenss. But if you are going on something else, MM, you might want to re-iterate the approach you are trying to explore, because if it's not one of the two meanings I gave, I don't know what you're going after.

To clarify...the book quote gives the definition upon which to base the discussion...

drama is an action performed by people set aside to do it, and designed to involve an audience...

And then of course whether worship is that type of drama, and if so how music relates to that...

IF that is true, and IF it is a scripturally defensible practice, then maybe your visual aid fits. If not, then it may not, and I submit that we need to decide for sure, because it matters in this day and age in our churches.

Will not be online for another several hours...have a recital to perform!

mm

This will be my last post until I return from my retreat. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that speaks against using skits and drama to illustrate a Biblical theme. However, what is portrayed needs to be backed by Scripture. I see little difference in a skit/drama vs a sermon, a song, a book, or another work of art other than the medium of which it is carried. If any of these is to portray anything of the Bible, it needs to be tested by the Bible. Now let's use the skit that I mentioned earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

How does this skit illustrate Biblical theology? The heart of the message is what goes on in the background of witnessing to someone. I believe and have experienced that in order for anyone to come to Christ, a battle must be fought. This battle is spiritual and the battle can come before or during the act of witnessing. In some cases, the battle is simply what it takes to get to the right place at the right time. Others it can be a heart issue. There are cases where the battle is against the mindset a person has. And there are the cases where are you actually confront a demonic force. I know, I've been there.

Now something else to realize, not every drama is going to be perfectly Scripturally sound. In this skit, there is a physical tug-of-war and that essentially does not happen in reality. But it does illustrate the issue of someone contemplating thier old-life vs the life with Christ. And in the background, the video shows me fighting off the forces of evil as a representation of Jesus doing battle to win us over.

This video is over two years old and I have since done a fair amount of tweaking to the skit and made it better. I've been waiting for a chance to do it again while a video camera is present so I can post a much improved version.

Now back to the original question. Is this an act of worship? I would say yes. I am using the skills I have in the sport of fencing to further the Kingdom of God. This is an excellent tool that God has shown me how to use that works for any group or audience. This video was done in a Rehab Center in Juarez, MX. I've also done it for my church, orphanages, a Bible Clubs in the poor neighborhoods in Juarez. I'm also seeking ways to expand beyond the skit itself. I am still trying to work with my pastor and find a date in which I can use the whole sermon time to do a presentation using my fencing equipment and skills to illustrate the Armor of God and how to approach spiritual warfare. We are just waiting on God's timing. This is just one way I can take what God has given me (the physical ability to do the sport and the privelege of doing the sport) and give it back to Him. That is an act of worship. I look forward to hearing responses (even if I don't get them until Sunday afternoon).

Thanks Shadow, for your impassioned defense of the Jewish nation. I'm not 100% certain, but I think you are correct that there is a passage in Revelations that suggests that Jews will eventually accept Christ as their prophesied Messiah before Judgment Day (I tried a couple of passes at Bible Gateway, but apparently my wording wasn't precise enough for a hit), in essence fulfilling their part of the covenant (as seen from a NT perspective). I'm not certain I agree with all of your points regarding the state of Israel, but will leave that aside as "political" discussion.

On 2012, I am always entertained and intrigued by Eschatology and the myriad views of the End Times, even though I don't really believe in it. I enjoy films like The Megiddo Code and End of Days (as hokey as some of them are). And I found Hal Lindsey's book fascinating.

But it has puzzled me no end that, since Y2K came and passed without the End of the World, some Christians have latched onto the Mayan Calendar (the product of a decidedly Pagan civilization) for predicting the timing of the End Times. It doesn't strike me as particularly "Biblical", and even if there were some sort of prophetic confluence, I have a hard time seeing how more conservative Christians can reconcile the two . Yet some indeed manage to.

Live Long and Prosper

GB

EDIT: By the way, sorry about being a little behind the thread, but I've had the flu, and for some reason I'm having trouble with getting email reminders again.

EDIT again: Thanks for those quotes 220CT, but isn't there something in Revelations too? Or am I just losing my marbles ?

Gandalf: I skimmed the book of Revelation and found no such verse or passage you or Shadow is referring to. By the way, there's no "s" because of the book's unity; it's one revelation Christ gives and one revelation of the person of Christ. I don't think Christians should be latching onto the Mayan calendar either, since it's the product of a pagan civilization as you say, and yet I'm wondering if God can reveal things [like the future] in other cultures.

(1) It is God's job to change hearts - not ours: I'm in total agreement!
(2) It is our responsibility to lead others to Christ. That is our God-given mission as Christians! If we don't live up to the gifts given to us by the creator, we will be held accountable for them! It could very well be our fault that someone isn't led to Christ. God puts us in position to change hearts and lead them to Christ. We need to respond to His calling to assist God in His mission!
(3) This mission to lead others to Christ and our failure to live up to that responsibility being our fault doesn't put our efforts higher than God! God uses His creation (us) to formulate change in the world. With God we can do anything!

I'm in complete agreement! It's not our job to change hearts. And God doesn't expect us to. Why? Because we can't! At the same time, it is our job to go and tell, to be witnesses, "to lead others to Christ." God gives us gifts that we're accountable for. I think 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 makes this pretty clear. And it's God using us through the gifts He's given us, not us using Him. We're just vessels. Does that put our efforts above God's? No. He works through us.

EDIT
Welcome back to the forum, Stylteralmaldo! Do you have a nickname?
/EDIT

To be specific: what we do not here mean is that worship is an entertainment put on at one end of a building for the amusement of people at the other end...drama is an action performed by people set aside to do it, and designed to involve an audience...

I think this is a really interesting concept, i.e. worship as drama. Yes, it's "performed by people set aside to do it." But I don't think it's necessarily "designed to involve an audience." This is where I disagree. And I think the perfect illustration of this is the book of Revelation. How many times do we see angels, living creatures, 24 elders, and multitudes no one can count worshipping God? It is a drama, involving many! But guess what? There really isn't any audience, anyone watching. Everyone has a function, a role to play. Check out Revelation 4, 5, 7:9-12, 11:15-18, 14:1-5, 15:1-4, and 19:1-10. And notice how many times they sing songs!

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Thanks for looking 220CT, I guess I was just vaguely remembering some of the other quotes you dug up.

GB

Hello all. Back after a long enough absence. My thoughts on the whole eschatology issue, is that we have to be careful. There are so many views that I honestly don't know what I believe about all of that. I do believe that some cataclysmic ending of the world will occur, leading to a new heavens and new earth.

We all have to be mindful of the past though, as Santayana would point out. Rome and Greece at various periods were much more immoral, evil, decadent, and selfish than anything we have today. The Sixties are known for the immorality in that period. Things seem bad now to some of us, but they will get better, or not. Either way, I think that the despair or assumptions made about these issues are one step too far in being presumptuous towards God. Our job is to do our best, and leave that stuff up to Him.

As for the swine flu, well, I'm getting one through the VA as soon as I can. I have read the statistics, and while I'm not as young as some of you are anymore, I am still young enough to be within the sub-population of "young people" that the statistics say are becoming terribly ill from it.

As for the point of it being appropriate to get it, it is, but I can understand the skepticism of the government's guarantee. This is the same government that dismisses Gulf War syndrome and other veterans issues, and has troops traipsing through areas over there without proper equipment on. I took nice little walks through one of so-called "Chemical Ali's" weapons-making factories, so I can tell you that proper care is not taken by the government often.

I will try to be back more often. I missed you all. God bless.

I bid you all adieu.

MOD NOTE: Please, let's be careful not to get into politics here. I know it's very easy to do, and we've already had to mention this once, but the conversation keeps veering back that way. Please, everyone, be mindful of that rule. Thank you!

It could very well be our fault that someone isn't led to Christ.

I'm in complete agreement! It's not our job to change hearts. And God doesn't expect us to. Why? Because we can't!

I am not sure how these two statements can be reconciled.

Further, I am not sure how Sty's comment can be reconciled with Scripture, that tells us that ALL the Father has given to Christ WILL come to Him (John 6:37). God graciously allows us to partner with Him and work in His harvest, but His purposes are always fulfilled, even if we sometimes fail in our obedience. All those He has purposed to save will be saved.

MOD NOTE: Please, let's be careful not to get into politics here. I know it's very easy to do, and we've already had to mention this once, but the conversation keeps veering back that way. Please, everyone, be mindful of that rule. Thank you!

I tried to avoid politics in general, but I did get into them by responding about current events. I apologize, Mods. Sorry. I also sometimes don't realize where my real-life military personal experiences might intersect with politics, so I have to be careful. I promise that I will try harder to follow this rule in the future. Once again, I apologize.

...ALL the Father has given to Christ WILL come to Him (John 6:37). God graciously allows us to partner with Him and work in His harvest, but His purposes are always fulfilled, even if we sometimes fail in our obedience. All those He has purposed to save will be saved.

Amen WW! The Lord is the one responsible. Now, we are responsible to Him for heeding His call and not, but not for the salvation of others. The Lord decides these things in His awesome power and will. God is not some observer hoping that we serve Him, and hoping that we choose Him. He deigns to allow us to be a part of His plan, to enjoy Him.

We need to remember this, and have more humility sometimes, methinks. I am not saying people here do not have humility, by the by, but that Christians in this world do not exercise enough humility in general. We also do not think enough about the logical outcomes of our statements and ideas.

Well, that's it for me for now. God bless you all.

I bid you all adieu.

Further, I am not sure how Sty's comment can be reconciled with Scripture, that tells us that ALL the Father has given to Christ WILL come to Him (John 6:37). God graciously allows us to partner with Him and work in His harvest, but His purposes are always fulfilled, even if we sometimes fail in our obedience. All those He has purposed to save will be saved.

Yes, but how do they come to Christ? Most through preaching and witnessing ... our job, our calling, our partnering with God.

Now, we are responsible to Him for heeding His call and not, but not for the salvation of others. The Lord decides these things in His awesome power and will.

Agreed!

Yes, but

There! you did it again, 220. "Yes-but"-ing the glorious truth that God is the One Who saves, and we are not, isn't necessary because if we truly believe in Him and love Him, and realize that He is using us for His Kingdom -- not we "partnering" with Him -- then we will naturally want to spread the good news to those who don't know it.

I think this is the difference leading to a lot of our friendly disagreements. Some on here want to leave the reason for witnessing at the Gospel and its call by itself, and others -- perhaps yourself included? -- want to say, "Yes, but." But it's the truth itself that will keep us driven to evangelize, not the truth acknowledged and then "but" something else in addition. The God Who ordained that some people be saved (His secret knowledge) has also ordained the means: as you said, the ways we preach and minister in our churches and the world (His revealed commandments).

I am sure no one means to lower the Gospel when he or she says "yes, but" to it. I'm sure you don't, 220! But perhaps in saying to the Gospel and to God's sovereignty "yes, but," isn't there a subconscious thought that the Gospel and its own inherent motivations aren't enough to get us moving? Just a thought ...

Amen, Ransom. There is no valid "yes but" to the truths of Scripture!

Yes, but how do they come to Christ? Most through preaching and witnessing ... our job, our calling, our partnering with God.

You're arguing against a point I'm not even making, 220. My point is that all those appointed by God for salvation WILL believe. Will God use our preaching the Gospel in that process? Absolutely; faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. But will God's plans fail because of us? Can we thwart His will? No. Which is why I can't agree with Sty's statement above that it might be our fault if someone isn't led to Christ. Scripturally it does not hold up. All those appointed for salvation will believe. God's will is always done — with or without our contributions.

...But will God's plans fail because of us? Can we thwart His will? No. Which is why I can't agree with Sty's statement above that it might be our fault if someone isn't led to Christ. Scripturally it does not hold up. All those appointed for salvation will believe. God's will is always done — with or without our contributions.

For the record, I never said God's plan could fail.

God's plan can not fail. But we can fail to implement God's plan.

If someone called to fulfill God's plan fails to live up to their responsibilities, God will find someone else to fulfill that responsibility.

Welcome back to the forum, Stylteralmaldo! Do you have a nickname?

Many call me "Sty"....I think I cause a sty in people's eyes around here sometimes.

All this depends on what kind of "will" of God we're talking about.

For example, was it God's will -- His "real" will -- for Pharaoh to let the Israelite slaves leave Egypt? Hard to tell, but read Exodus 3 and Romans 9 and you get the idea God wouldn't let Pharaoh truly obey His command to let the Israelites go. Instead, God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart. Whether that meant He actively made it stubborn, or withheld a grace or action that would have enabled Pharaoh to choose to obey isn't the point: the point is that God did something, and He isn't "above" that.

Plenty of times in Scripture, God commands something He either knows His people will not follow or not be able to follow (such as, oh, the entire Law), or more directly references giving a command and truly wanting it to be followed, yet preventing it from being followed!

The "contradiction" can be reconciled when realizing that God, in a way, has "two" wills: a revealed will of command, and a hidden "will of decree."

Otherwise, the theological confusion or madness resulting from trying to figure out how God can want everyone to be saved, but not actually saving everyone, or how God could say not to eat the forbidden fruit but knowing Adam and Eve would anyway and having a deeper plan all along, will lead to heresies like "Open Theism": God doesn't know the future.

By the way, 'tis great to see you back, Style, after so long.

(Wow! A short post from me. Maybe this time folks will actually read it. )

Now back to the original question. Is this an act of worship?

With all due respect, and also with appreciation for your post on the subject, (which is a related subject that will be very important to discuss once the issue is decided) this is NOT the original question.

The original question is NOT "is the drama that fencer (or anyone) does to help communicate the gospel message recognizable by God as an act of worship?"

The original question: "does worship=drama?" Expanded, I see the question as asking this; "when we meet together as Christians and do what we do to honor God and encourage ourselves in following Him, is that drama as well as worship?"

When we meet together as Christians, it is worship. But according to scripture that’s not the only time believers worship. A believer’s entire life, inside and outside the church, is worship or should be.

When we meet together as Christians, it may be drama. Depending on our definition of drama. It may even have been intended by God to BE drama. And that’s the point being made by Mr. Routley…that what believer’s do when we meet together=drama. The question is: is he right? And if so, what scriptures back that up?

For that matter, what we do as believers outside the believers' meeting may also be drama. This is a corollary question to be considered ifworship=drama.

I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that speaks against using skits and drama to illustrate a Biblical theme.

I agree. But that is not the question at this time. I would say that there is even biblical support for dramatic performance: many prophets acted out their prophecies as instructed by God.

However, what is portrayed needs to be backed by Scripture… If any of these is to portray anything of the Bible, it needs to be tested by the Bible.

Agreed. But although that’s a related question, we can’t wrestle with it until we answer the original question.

I think this is a really interesting concept, i.e. worship as drama. Yes, it's "performed by people set aside to do it." But I don't think it's necessarily "designed to involve an audience." This is where I disagree. And I think the perfect illustration of this is the book of Revelation. How many times do we see angels, living creatures, 24 elders, and multitudes no one can count worshipping God? It is a drama, involving many! But guess what? There really isn't any audience, anyone watching. Everyone has a function, a role to play. Check out Revelation 4, 5, 7:9-12, 11:15-18, 14:1-5, 15:1-4, and 19:1-10. And notice how many times they sing songs!

I rather think that the biblical illustration supports the “designed to involve an audience” concept. We are all watching each other, while at the same time participating, right? And God, while I agree that He is worshipping Himself, is also the Audience, receiving the worship. So there IS an Audience made up of God and each other.

That’s sort of semantic nitpicking…basically we agree, I think; and I believe that Mr. Routley’s definition was meant to encompass those biblical scenarios.

I see little difference in a skit/drama vs a sermon, a song, a book, or another work of art other than the medium of which it is carried.

This is exactly where we are getting to in answering the original question. For if what-we-do-as-believers-when-we-meet-together equals drama, and that is scripturally defensible, then we can quit arguing entirely about how art fits…ALL ART GENRES FIT. There are no more arguments about whether God likes some music better than others, or music better than painting, or whether dance is appropriate in church—it is all defensible, as it is all encompassed in the definition of drama Mr. Routley gives.

Which simplifies things, in my mind. Which is why the question, to me, seems very important. It has been my experience that when a question of Christian practice has to be explained and gets easily bogged down and subjected to many legalistic parameters; that is because there is an underlying scriptural principle that is being missed. Music is one of those places where the discussion gets quite messy and/or legalistic and eventually choices are made based on personal taste…but it oughtn’t be that way, and I am searching for the underlying principle that is being missed so that the discussion can be (at least in my mind) put to rest on a good foundation.

Furthermore, if this is so, then proper education of a congregation of believers will result in much less uproar and discussion and complaining concerning what occurs when we meet together!

So, fencer...I don't think the discussion as progressed to the point where we're ready to deal with your suggestion that the drama you do is an act of worship. What I want to know is...when we worship, is it drama? If so, is it always drama, or only when we meet together?

Or is it perhaps that Mr. Routley has it wrong...maybe what he is referring to as "worship" he really means is "liturgy", which may indeed be drama, and is a completely different question which will NOT answer the music/art appropriateness question. I don't think, anyway.

Maybe he's using the wrong word. We CAN scripturally define worship; and that is quite an encompassing definition. But is worship, as biblically defined, the same as drama, defined per Mr. Routley?

mm

Edit/ Dr. R, you might recall that I posted a link in my post on the previous page which I feel explains God's secret and revealed wills...which link might be useful to those considering your post...