Tolkien, Letters 257

Other testimony is that Tolkien found Williams's occultism somewhat dangerous, or at least distasteful.

Before his conversion, Lewis had been an atheist of the skeptical/naturalist kind, under the influence of his tutor William Kirkpatrick, "The Great Knock".

Yeah, it's absolute rubbish. As Graymouser has mentioned above, it was Charles Williams who belonged to an almost-cult, and that was before Williams became a Christian. That said, he used some of his experiences within that dark world, later on in his novels.

Thanks for the replies! Does anyone have any studies they can recommend to back this up and clearly indicate that Lewis wasn't a cult member? Simply saying that I've read a lot of Lewis' books and I feel they are very Christian isn't very convincing to the individual I'm debating.

Thanks for the replies! Does anyone have any studies they can recommend to back this up and clearly indicate that Lewis wasn't a cult member? Simply saying that I've read a lot of Lewis' books and I feel they are very Christian isn't very convincing to the individual I'm debating.

I don't know of any studies on it, mostly because it's false information that is just being spread around on a few select conspiracy theory sites which most people don't take seriously. It's not exactly a widely known or... respected rumor. From what I've seen, it started from a site known for claiming outlandish things about Lewis, without offering any proof for their claims. (For every famous author, there will be some site guilty of slander against them.)

I would first ask the person you're debating to try to prove their view. If all they have to offer is just their word, or a dodgy site known for ridiculous and unfounded accusations against people, they don't really have a case. Anyone can claim anything. Doesn't mean we have to take them seriously. Especially if they have no proof.

~Riella

Haha Lewis was never a cult member! I have studied his life, and though I know he was attracted to some occult-ish stuff before he was a Christian, that doesn't count because we was BORN AGAIN- The old has gone and the new has come!

You can't believe what you hear on the internet. Lewis's themes in his writing both reflect Christian themes and Mythological themes, and if they reflect cult themes it's probably purely coincidental. I've read a biography on Lewis written by Douglas Gresham (of course I've read tons of other stuff on him too) that tells of Lewis's life from someone who actually knew him very well (not some random internet conspirator)- nothing even slightly cultish was mentioned!

Anyone who has bothered to read Lewis's works or the works of Tolkien and continues to claim that they were practitioners of dark magic are clearly lacking in the area of reading comprehension. Tolkien in particular clearly condemns black magic and Lewis is pretty unfavorable of humans using magic in his fantasy works. The conversation in SC in which Jill wants to draw circles and chant and things to get Aslan's attention and Eustace tells her that Aslan wouldn't like it.

But yeah, like others have said, when there is absolutely no evidence in the writings of an author, in the documentation of their life, in their contemporaries' accounts of their experiences with that person to back up a lone person's claims, odds are that person is lying. I could do the same thing as that conspiracy website right now.

Abraham Lincoln was a member of the Illuminati and they secretly ran the world with the use of alien mind control rays which they obtained when a flying saucer crashed into the White House's backyard. I know this because my dad's great-uncle's mother's cousin was a member too and she wrote all about it.

Booky you may want to put some bolded note on that, so that people don't miss your point

But if your looking for evidence that he was not a cult member you should do some research on his life, perhaps at your local library. I'm sure then you'll find plenty of information on his life during his Atheist and his Christian years. Also if you look online, make sure you're looking at some sort of academic article or journal article (or some of his own work), cause who knows what someone will put elsewhere

Bookwyrm, sad thing is, I'm sure there are people who believe that about Abraham Lincoln.

Lewis was, in his years in college and as a teenager, into the occult. He mentions it in his book Surprised by Joy, where he said it was a serious problem for him. He tried, and I believe succeeded, to capture this in his novel, That Hideous Strength.
However, even before he was converted he left the occult, never to return. Sadly, some people, including many of my friends, feel that since he mentions magic in the Narniad, he must have been in the occult to some extent. This is simply silly. Magic in that world has two forms: the power of Aslan, and the evil power of the White Witch, Tash, etc. It is not the magic that we would encounter in this world, where magic is mostly mixed with the occult.

I'm so sorry to hear that your friend has soured on Narnia for that sort of reason. The sad reality is that just because you dig up a swastika doesn't mean the place was run by Nazis, and just because one finds a cross over the door and the occupants inside label themselves christians doesn't mean you'll find honest and caring people inside.

The only final proof of the pudding is to cut yourself a serving and try it. The themes of chronicles are quite obvious and clear as I think your friend well knows: forgiveness, forbearance, courage, faith, loyalty, repentance, humility, mercy and love.

That's the way of things with ancient symbols and ideas: they are often misused and get a bad reputation as if Christianity were to be judged solely by the actions of those who's principal calling card is Conquest and Subjugation. Such an analysis might be "historically accurate" but it is not exactly honest.

I will not address what are the doctrines of such organisations as you mention (H.O.G.D.) and the like as I am not familiar with those- however if it is a question of Hermetic Thought in general, that is a different matter. Deep Magic can be abused as can Alchemy and indeed all sciences to one degree or another. And if nothing else, the truth can be abused by telling lies about it. Ultimately in THIS WORLD you have the power of science and the power of God. Now, are there REALLY two things, or just one thing seen in a mirror dimly?

The inescapable fact is that christianity itself is loaded with "hermetic" and alchemical motifs, themes and symbols and ideas, ideas of transformation, re-vivification, renewal and rebirth. It is unavoidable. Those who know what to look for can find them. Very few are in a position to judge such things as it requires an education that is BOTH scientific AND classical. Sadly that rules out most scientists, theologians, "magicians", and scholars. It has been that way since the great chain of being fell into obscurity.

Fair warning then, your friend is looking down a very deep rabbit hole: when the book of Job speaks of Orion and the Pleiades it refers to things we scarcely can imagine and probably wouldn't believe.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I have been realizing that the hard things about this type of argument is that there isn't a good way to "disprove" it, but the other side (that Lewis is a cult member) doesn't have a good way to prove their accusations either. It really comes down to whether or not you believe what C.S. Lewis wrote in his own books about himself, or whether you choose to believe he was lying or deceiving his readers. I would rather choose a path of interpreting Lewis based on his own writings, not shadowing accusations!

I suppose my question, SecondRose, would be, did Lewis really say that he was in the occult, or did he just say it was something he struggled with? I can struggle with, say, thievery, but that doesn't mean I've ever stolen anything. It just means I struggle with the urge. In the same way, I don't believe I've ever read anything where Lewis said, or someone else who is an authority on him, he was in the occult.

Though it is true that Charles Williams, another member of the Inklings, was a member of an semi-occult Christian group called The Fellowship of the Rosy Cross.

That would be the Rosicrucians, who, along with the Theosophical Society, had, to my knowledge, a presence in most large cities up until recently. The late 19th century had a flourishing of societies which aimed to 'improve' society, and which some people I know would castigate uncharitably as 'do-gooders' or 'wowsers'. I'm not even very sure that at least some of those sorts of societies aren't religious organisations, rather than community service organisations, like the Masons or Rotary. I don't know much about these groups or what they believe in.

As for C.S.Lewis, he belonged to a group of writers, rather than a formal society, who were called the Inklings. They all shared an interest in Christianity and theology. And yes, he became a High Anglican. Before he adopted Christianity, C.S.Lewis acquainted himself with many forms of belief, but I doubt he was a cult member.

As for the occult, it depends on what you mean by the occult. Yes C.S.Lewis did write about witches and magic in his Narnia series, and that it wasn't only the baddies who practised magic. I do not doubt that anti-C.S.Lewis websites would therefore accuse C.S.Lewis of dealing with the occult, even though he specifically portrayed the PC reviving the White Witch as evil.

Other so-called occult practices such as what some people would call 'scrying', that is to say, looking in a bowl of water to see how other people are doing, have quite innocent intentions. When the hermit in HHB did something similar, looking in a pond to report the siege taking place at Anvard, he might just as easily have been looking at a technological forerunner to watching a hazy, snowy, television screen.