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Why did the prophecy in LWW need four children?

coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

This question struck me today and I couldn't find anything here on this question. Nor can I remember ever discussing it!

Apart from the conventional two boys and two girls often found in English children's stories, and apart from the convenience of the prophecy needing all four of them, why did Narnia need four children to be crowned at Cair Paravel in order for Jadis's long winter rule to be at an end?

This question would be less important if Lewis had never written any more in the series, and there was only this one book. 
But we do have sequels (PC, VDT, SC, LB) a prequel (MN), and whatever a book set within another book is called (HHB), plus a copy of the timeline written by Lewis.

In all the sequels and the prequel, there is no multiple monarchy. In MN the first king of Narnia is crowned, with his wife as queen - in the usual way of a monarch and their consort. In PC and SC the king has a wife who is called the queen, but there is no suggestion of her being an equal monarch. The timeline does not hint at any shared ruling.

What do you think?

 

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Topic starter Posted : September 6, 2021 10:38 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I don't remember the prophecy saying it had to be children. Maybe any two males and two females would have fulfilled it if they had happened to go to Narnia. I confess, though, I kind of like the idea that it was always going to be Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy. It has a poetic appeal.

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : September 7, 2021 7:38 am
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee

I really think it's a case of Lewis doing what served the plot and the style of the story he was writing, without (at the time) thinking of sequels, or of any concept of Narnia having human monarchs either before or after the Pevensies' reign. He's writing a fairy tale for children, and there's a big wish fulfilment element there, I would say — lots of children love to imagine being king or queen of their own fantasy land, and so here are four who get to do just that, and even to grow up there and reign for years and years and have all kinds of adventures, before returning to their ordinary lives as children again (as real kids always have to do when playtime stops and it's time for dinner, or school, or bed)... I know I could relate to that as a child! Giggle  

The prophecy is just one of those things that's never explained even in the book, and never referred to again in any of the rest of the series. And it's clear Lewis wasn't envisioning anything of what he later came up with as Narnia's history when he wrote that first book — that's obvious from Mr Beaver's statement to the children that "there's never been any of your race here before", which made sense when LWW was written and even throughout most of the sequels when they were published, but it becomes a serious blooper when we get to The Magician's Nephew.

I honestly can't think of any logical "in-story" reason for the prophecy apart from it being the useful plot device that it is. We need to get all four children into Narnia somehow — and there has to be a reason why the White Witch wants to destroy them, so it makes sense to tie their presence to her fate. But then it's also left unexplained why the Witch, on meeting Edmund and learning he is one of four siblings, decides to encourage him to bring his brother and sisters into Narnia, therefore putting the prophecy in direct danger of being fulfilled. Couldn't she just have killed Edmund, or turned him to stone, on the spot, which would foil the prophecy entirely?? And yet it seems it's only in chapter 13, when she's almost at the Stone Table and aware that the other three children must have reached Aslan by now, that she suddenly comes up with the idea — "How if only three [thrones] were filled? That would not fulfil the prophecy" — and prepares to put Edmund to death. Not the world's cleverest villain there, surely... D\'oh  

On top of that, there's the fact that the prophecy itself turns out to be not entirely accurate, even when it's fulfilled. If we're to believe Mr Beaver, "it's a saying in Narnia time out of mind that when two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve sit in those four thrones, then it will be the end not only of the White Witch's reign but of her life". And yet the Witch's reign and life both end BEFORE the four children are crowned Kings and Queens. Aslan kills her in the final battle, which makes the crowning of the Pevensies technically redundant, when you think about it! Shocked  

Maybe the prophecy itself is a little open to interpretation? Mr Beaver states it as one of "the old rhymes": "When Adam's flesh and Adam's bone / Sits at Cair Paravel in throne, / The evil time will be over and done." (Pity "done" doesn't rhyme, but that's English for you. Tongue ) That doesn't say anything about there being four of them, or specifically about the Witch and her death. Mind you, we don't know if those are the actual words of the prophecy, or just an easy-to-remember summary of it. We're not told where the actual prophecy came from, or who made it and why... it's all rather baffling.

I guess it's one of those things that is fuel for fan fiction — I'm sure some writers have attempted to explain it all, though I haven't read any of them!

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : September 7, 2021 11:37 am
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posted by: @courtenay

If we're to believe Mr Beaver, "it's a saying in Narnia time out of mind that when two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve sit in those four thrones, then it will be the end not only of the White Witch's reign but of her life". And yet the Witch's reign and life both end BEFORE the four children are crowned Kings and Queens. Aslan kills her in the final battle, which makes the crowning of the Pevensies technically redundant, when you think about it! Shocked  

If you want, you can interpret "will be" as meaning the end of those things will have happened by the time they sit there, not that they'll end the exact same instant.

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : September 7, 2021 2:23 pm
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coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

There are a number of things that Mr & Mrs Beaver tell the children in LWW that seem to be hearsay or opinion. Should we trust the prophecy as explained by them?

[ @courtenay 'throne' and 'done' may not rhyme by sounds, but this is what's known as an 'eye-rhyme' in English Lit class ]

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Topic starter Posted : September 7, 2021 3:00 pm
Courtenay liked
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut

Great Question! I think that the prophecy had to be 4 people because the book is has themes of  Family and teamwork. If it had been one person, then that one person would only have to become a King or Queen and they wouldn't have to work with the weaknesses and arguments of bringing others along. Yet with four people, four siblings actually, the Pevesnsies, throughout the whole book, have to learn to work together and push through each other's annoying traits. Also, with Edmund's betrayal they needed  to learn to forgive him, just as Aslan did. Lastly, the age that they ruled would only be known as the Golden Age if they were all there, all four of them, to rule Narnia together. 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Posted : September 7, 2021 5:25 pm
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icarus
(@icarus)
NarniaWeb Guru

So obviously @courtenay has hit the nail on the head with regard to the "correct" answer. Like a lot of these sorts of questions it ultimately comes back to the idea that Lewis, unlike Tolkien, was not all that concerned with "lore" and world building in his stories.

However, in terms of theorising an in-universe answer, I believe the Walden movies kind of attempted to offer an explanation...  In essence that four is the traditional number of natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water and Fire) and that the defeat of the White Witch (ice) represents a victory for nature over magic.

In the coronation scene, Aslan cowns each child in honour of a particular element - Edmund is the Western Wood (Earth), Peter is the Northern Sky (Wind), Lucy is the Eastern Sea (Water) and Susan is the Southern Sun (Fire). The compass motif here is also used to help sell the idea of Four being the number of "completeness".

I recall that the metaphor as described above, when mentioned as part of an early test screening review for the movie, caused a lot of controversy on the internet, as it was deemed somewhat more pantheistic or pagan in nature, so potentially they toned down this thematic reference in the final edit, which is why it maybe doesn't quite land as a clear metaphor, but even in the finished film it is still a pretty clear and deliberate attempt to link the Prophecy of Four to the notion of the Four Elements and the return of Narnia to the natural order.

 

 

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Posted : September 7, 2021 5:43 pm
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Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee
Posted by: @icarus

So obviously @courtenay has hit the nail on the head with regard to the "correct" answer. Like a lot of these sorts of questions it ultimately comes back to the idea that Lewis, unlike Tolkien, was not all that concerned with "lore" and world building in his stories.

That does seem to be my stock response to every discussion, doesn't it? Grin Maybe it's too many years studying English Literature at school, but that's just where I start from — looking at what we can glean about what the author was (or wasn't) trying to achieve at the time he was writing the book. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm criticising either Lewis or LWW itself too harshly. I LOVE the entire Narnia series to bits and it barely even bothers me, as a long-time reader, that there are various aspects of the plots that are a bit thin or where things don't quite add up. They're children's books, not adult-level fantasy epics. And they certainly had the effect on me, as a young child, that I think Lewis hoped they would have — they introduced me to a concept of a God that I loved and wanted to get to know better. So I really have no problem with the various inconsistencies and unexplained plot holes that critics and cynics love to pick at, because the books themselves — flaws and all — mean far too much to me.

Posted by: @icarus

However, in terms of theorising an in-universe answer, I believe the Walden movies kind of attempted to offer an explanation...  In essence that four is the traditional number of natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water and Fire) and that the defeat of the White Witch (ice) represents a victory for nature over magic.

In the coronation scene, Aslan cowns each child in honour of a particular element - Edmund is the Western Wood (Earth), Peter is the Northern Sky (Wind), Lucy is the Eastern Sea (Water) and Susan is the Southern Sun (Fire). The compass motif here is also used to help sell the idea of Four being the number of "completeness".

Yes, that's a really good point — I never noticed the implied symbolism of the "four elements" in that scene (just the four compass points). I always wondered why they bothered to invent that speech from Aslan, but now it makes much more sense thematically.

Posted by: @col-klink

If you want, you can interpret "will be" as meaning the end of those things will have happened by the time they sit there, not that they'll end the exact same instant.

Good point as well. And it doesn't sound like Mr Beaver is quoting the actual prophecy word-for-word exactly, if indeed it ever was set down in words — he just calls it "a saying in Narnia time out of mind", which sounds like it's been passed down through folklore during the 100 years of the Witch's reign, but there's not necessarily a definitive version of it. And we're not told who actually prophesied it and why it worked the way it did...

I wonder if Netflix, when they get to LWW, will expand on the prophecy at all and try to put in some background to it and / or more of an explanation for it? I wouldn't mind them doing so, if they can make it credible and consistent with the rest of what we know about Narnia and the general "feel" of the books. I just can't think of any really good explanations for it myself! Giggle  

I know we are given a sense elsewhere in the series that although Narnia is "not Man's country... it's a country for a man to be king of" (Trufflehunter in Prince Caspian), and that at the very beginning of Narnia, Aslan choosing Frank and Helen as the first King and Queen is part of "Adam's race" helping to heal the harm caused by Digory bringing Jadis — the White Witch herself — into Narnia. So there IS a big implication that having human rulers — good, wise, principled, compassionate ones — is essential for Narnia to be stable and safe. And of course Frank and Helen, and later the Pevensies, rule in just the opposite way that Jadis / the White Witch does, by being servant leaders, not tyrants. I still can't hit on a specific reason why the prophecy demands four Kings and Queens at once, though!! But it's all fun to speculate about.

Posted by: @coracle

[ @courtenay 'throne' and 'done' may not rhyme by sounds, but this is what's known as an 'eye-rhyme' in English Lit class ]

I know Wink (see my above comment re Eng Lit, which I did to Year 12 level (A-level in the UK, senior in the US, I think))

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : September 8, 2021 2:25 am
coracle liked
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