Posted by: @courtenay

And while Aslan presumably feels pain at that moment (though he apparently doesn't when hit by the iron bar in MN), there's no evidence that he suffers for a lengthy time, let alone sustains a permanent injury. We're not told that any more blood kept flowing from his paw, or that he was left limping afterwards.

But we don’t know at all for certain because Lewis keeps us in the dark.

Posted by: @courtenay

Fair enough — "a foot long and sharp as a rapier" is rather dramatic and perhaps seems a bit excessive for what's needed in that scene.

You think? It sounds downright brutal!

 

 

and/or of the

But obviously that was how Lewis decided to write that part, and I don't know if he ever had any readers ask him about it. He regularly responded to letters from children (and adults!) asking him about things in the Chronicles, and often his explanations are very interesting and helpful. There's a lovely compilation, C.S. Lewis Letters to Children, which I have, but there aren't any among them where he refers to this particular incident. So unfortunately I don't think we have any further info from Lewis himself about why he wrote that scene as he did.

So as far as we know, he did it just to torture readers with the thought of Aslan suffering.

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Posted by: @courtenay

And while Aslan presumably feels pain at that moment (though he apparently doesn't when hit by the iron bar in MN), there's no evidence that he suffers for a lengthy time, let alone sustains a permanent injury. We're not told that any more blood kept flowing from his paw, or that he was left limping afterwards.

But we don’t know at all for certain because Lewis keeps us in the dark.

Well... since this is entirely a story that Lewis is writing, not a real-life event, the best assumption I can make about it is: if Lewis didn't tell us that Aslan kept on bleeding or continued to suffer pain, then Aslan did not keep on bleeding or continue to suffer pain. I really don't think he intended readers to go on and on worrying about it — otherwise, he would have given us reason to be concerned. But he doesn't.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your second post after the one I was just replying to...

So as far as we know, he did it just to torture readers with the thought of Aslan suffering.

That's a rather intense and unfounded assumption to make, really. If you look at this discussion, many other people who've read that last chapter of The Silver Chair (including those who first read it at a young age, too — I was 7 when I first read it) were not left feeling "torture[d]... with the thought of Aslan suffering." I don't think it even occurred to me that he might be badly hurt — especially considering he had, in the earliest book in the series, already actually been killed (with a knife that most likely stabbed him in the heart) and had come back to life, with no references at all to the knife wound or the pain or any after-effects from it.

(Now I think about it, Lewis could have fitted in some extra Biblical parallels by having Susan and Lucy ask Aslan about the wound, or even having them demand to see and touch it — "doubting Thomas" style — but since he didn't do that, he can't have been wanting his readers to dwell on it either. My own thought is that that would have been unnecessarily gruesome, would have made the Christian themes much too blatant and heavy-handed, and would have detracted from the sheer pure joy of Aslan's resurrection, which is what we as the audience clearly ARE meant to feel.)

Aslan even refers to the fact that he, too, has died, when Eustace expresses some shock and unease about Caspian's resurrection — and he (Aslan) remarks on this "in a very quiet voice, almost (Jill thought) as if he were laughing." His whole attitude there doesn't come across at all as if he's suffering from the recent wound in his paw. Quite the opposite — it apparently means nothing to him in comparison to death itself being proved powerless, for Caspian now as it was for himself before.

In short, if Lewis wanted "to torture readers with the thought of Aslan suffering", he would have told us that Aslan was suffering and given us no reason to believe otherwise. But he doesn't say a word about Aslan suffering, and gives us (on both those occasions, in LWW as well as SC!) every reason to conclude that whatever pain Aslan did suffer, it's nothing to him in light of what it achieves.

As I'm sure I said earlier, I appreciate that this scene moves you so deeply, but why keep on and on churning over it when it's clear there's no reason to?

Posted by: @courtenay

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Posted by: @courtenay

And while Aslan presumably feels pain at that moment (though he apparently doesn't when hit by the iron bar in MN), there's no evidence that he suffers for a lengthy time, let alone sustains a permanent injury. We're not told that any more blood kept flowing from his paw, or that he was left limping afterwards.

But we don’t know at all for certain because Lewis keeps us in the dark.

Well... since this is entirely a story that Lewis is writing, not a real-life event, the best assumption I can make about it is: if Lewis didn't tell us that Aslan kept on bleeding or continued to suffer pain, then Aslan did not keep on bleeding or continue to suffer pain. I really don't think he intended readers to go on and on worrying about it — otherwise, he would have given us reason to be concerned. But he doesn't.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your second post after the one I was just replying to...

So as far as we know, he did it just to torture readers with the thought of Aslan suffering.

That's a rather intense and unfounded assumption to make, really.

If that was the case he shouldn’t have described the thorn in such disturbing detail. Maybe it was because only a thorn like that could pierce Aslan’s paw, but we’ll never know for sure. :/

Posted by: @courtenay

If you look at this discussion, many other people who've read that last chapter of The Silver Chair (including those who first read it at a young age, too — I was 7 when I first read it) were not left feeling "torture[d]... with the thought of Aslan suffering." I don't think it even occurred to me that he might be badly hurt — especially considering he had, in the earliest book in the series, already actually been killed (with a knife that most likely stabbed him in the heart) and had come back to life, with no references at all to the knife wound or the pain or any after-effects from it.

(Now I think about it, Lewis could have fitted in some extra Biblical parallels by having Susan and Lucy ask Aslan about the wound, or even having them demand to see and touch it — "doubting Thomas" style — but since he didn't do that, he can't have been wanting his readers to dwell on it either. My own thought is that that would have been unnecessarily gruesome, would have made the Christian themes much too blatant and heavy-handed, and would have detracted from the sheer pure joy of Aslan's resurrection, which is what we as the audience clearly ARE meant to feel.)

Aslan even refers to the fact that he, too, has died, when Eustace expresses some shock and unease about Caspian's resurrection — and he (Aslan) remarks on this "in a very quiet voice, almost (Jill thought) as if he were laughing."

 

How is talking in a very quiet voice imply that he’s laughing? And since it says (Jill thought) it might not even be true.

Posted by: @courtenay

His whole attitude there doesn't come across at all as if he's suffering from the recent wound in his paw. Quite the opposite — it apparently means nothing to him in comparison to death itself being proved powerless, for Caspian now as it was for himself before.

In short, if Lewis wanted "to torture readers with the thought of Aslan suffering", he would have told us that Aslan was suffering and given us no reason to believe otherwise. But he doesn't say a word about Aslan suffering, and gives us (on both those occasions, in LWW as well as SC!) every reason to conclude that whatever pain Aslan did suffer, it's nothing to him in light of what it achieves.

As I'm sure I said earlier, I appreciate that this scene moves you so deeply, but why keep on and on churning over it when it's clear there's no reason to?

You’re right. I tend to get hung up on things some times. I’m sorry.

Posted by: @aslanthelion

If that was the case he shouldn’t have described the thorn in such disturbing detail. Maybe it was because only a thorn like that could pierce Aslan’s paw, but we’ll never know for sure. :/

"A foot long and sharp as a rapier" is all the detail we get — which is a horrible size and sharpness for a thorn, but no worse than, well, an actual rapier. Really, I think a sword (which Eustace had with him, and Aslan could have asked him to use it) would have come across as more graphic and brutal. 

How is talking in a very quiet voice imply that he’s laughing? And since it says (Jill thought) it might not even be true.

Of course a "very quiet voice" does not, in itself, indicate laughter or any other particular emotion. But by adding what he does about Jill's thoughts, Lewis obviously wants us as readers to sense that there is something in Aslan's quiet tone of voice that makes Jill feel that he is "almost" laughing. So, implicitly, we're meant to feel the same way — that far from being disturbed by anything that's just happened (as Eustace is!), Aslan finds the whole thing quietly amusing.

Is it only in this particular scene that you find you can't trust what Lewis tells us as the author, and so you sense there's something horrifying that he deliberately isn't saying, just to torture his readers — or are there other instances in the Chronicles where you find that happening? I'm just curious, that's all.

I don’t know, but again, I’m sorry I get a bit hung up on stuff.

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I think it's also helpful that even Aslan has feelings-

And all three stood and wept. Even the Lion wept: great Lion-tears, each tear more precious than the Earth would be if it was a single solid diamond.

What exactly is that last part supposed to mean? Also, Aslan crying doesn’t make sense exactly. I mean, it seems out of character. The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN, and that’s to make a point that he empathizes with Digory in that scene. Here, he doesn’t need to show it. 

I don’t know, but again, I’m sorry I get a bit hung up on stuff.

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I think it's also helpful that even Aslan has feelings-

And all three stood and wept. Even the Lion wept: great Lion-tears, each tear more precious than the Earth would be if it was a single solid diamond.

What exactly is that last part supposed to mean?

 Also, Aslan crying doesn’t make sense exactly. I mean, it seems out of character. The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN, and that’s to make a point that he empathizes with Digory in that scene. Here, he doesn’t need to show it. 

Posted by: @aslanthelion

The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN, and that’s to make a point that he empathizes with Digory in that scene.

Well, he's described as moaning in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe right before his death. That's not far removed from crying. 

Posted by: @aslanthelion

What exactly is that last part supposed to mean?

 

 Also, Aslan crying doesn’t make sense exactly. I mean, it seems out of character. The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN

I think you may have answered your own question. Since there aren't many scenes of Aslan weeping, his tears are really rare and therefore precious.

Posted by: @col-klink

Posted by: @aslanthelion

The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN, and that’s to make a point that he empathizes with Digory in that scene.

Well, he's described as moaning in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe right before his death. That's not far removed from crying. 

It’s different. I’m pretty much positive he wasn’t crying there.

Posted by: @col-klink

Posted by: @aslanthelion

What exactly is that last part supposed to mean?

 

 Also, Aslan crying doesn’t make sense exactly. I mean, it seems out of character. The only other time we see Aslan cry is in TMN

I think you may have answered your own question. Since there aren't many scenes of Aslan weeping, his tears are really rare and therefore precious.

I don’t think so. Just because he doesn’t get many crying scenes, his tears are…that kind of ridiculous description Lewis gave??

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Just because he doesn’t get many crying scenes, his tears are…that kind of ridiculous description Lewis gave??

Rare things are precious. Like diamonds. I don't really get why you're so insistent that (a) Aslan never cry and (b) if he does cry, it's not a big deal. Those two things strike me as kind of contradictory.  

Posted by: @col-klink

Posted by: @aslanthelion

Just because he doesn’t get many crying scenes, his tears are…that kind of ridiculous description Lewis gave??

Rare things are precious. Like diamonds. I don't really get why you're so insistent that (a) Aslan never cry and (b) if he does cry, it's not a big deal. Those two things strike me as kind of contradictory.  

I’m not insisting he never cry. I just think comparing it to diamonds is ridiculous. I mean, does no one else find that description in the book unnecessarily over-the-top?

Posted by: @aslanthelion 

I’m not insisting he never cry. I just think comparing it to diamonds is ridiculous. I mean, does no one else find that description in the book unnecessarily over-the-top?

 

I would say it's a poetic comparison. It possibly helps to remember that Lewis is deliberately writing Aslan as an imagined answer to the question of what Jesus Christ might be like if he appeared in a different form, in a world other than ours, as that world's creator and saviour. As a divine being — THE Supreme Being — he's meant to inspire utter awe and reverence. Everything about him, really, is more precious than anything the world has to offer, more precious than the entire world itself.

So taking it from that point of view, it can be seen as making sense to describe even his tears as "more precious than the Earth would be if it was a single solid diamond." That description is absurd when looked at from a highly literal standpoint, but when it's taken with the amount of awe and wonder that Lewis intends readers to feel towards Aslan, it doesn't come across as jarring — at least not to me, and probably not to many other readers.

But we all read things differently and respond to them in our own way, and what works for some readers and moves them deeply may just not have the same impact on others — and that's OK.  

Posted by: @courtenay

Posted by: @aslanthelion 

I’m not insisting he never cry. I just think comparing it to diamonds is ridiculous. I mean, does no one else find that description in the book unnecessarily over-the-top?

 

I would say it's a poetic comparison. It possibly helps to remember that Lewis is deliberately writing Aslan as an imagined answer to the question of what Jesus Christ might be like if he appeared in a different form, in a world other than ours, as that world's creator and saviour. As a divine being — THE Supreme Being — he's meant to inspire utter awe and reverence. Everything about him, really, is more precious than anything the world has to offer, more precious than the entire world itself.

So taking it from that point of view, it can be seen as making sense to describe even his tears as "more precious than the Earth would be if it was a single solid diamond." That description is absurd when looked at from a highly literal standpoint, but when it's taken with the amount of awe and wonder that Lewis intends readers to feel towards Aslan, it doesn't come across as jarring — at least not to me, and probably not to many other readers.

But we all read things differently and respond to them in our own way, and what works for some readers and moves them deeply may just not have the same impact on others — and that's OK.  

Oh, I see. That makes sense!

I think I’ve said it before, but I grew up reading Narnia without knowing the religious symbolism, and since I’m not particularly religious myself, I guess I sometimes don’t pick up on how some things are meant to be written. So I’m sorry if my comment came out the wrong way.

Anyways, thanks for understanding.