Posted by: @col-klink

@nicemice2023 I meant that you began your comment with 

Posted by: @nicemice2023

I still think of Lewis’s narration as a bit different from Daniel Handler’s for reasons I explained before.

As if I had agreed with the comparison when I actually hadn't. (I didn't want to disagree if you really found it helpful but now I guess I have to do so.)

 

Oh, I don’t want you to feel like you have to disagree. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I haven't read every installment of A Series of Unfortunate Events and, truth be told, it's been a long time since I read any, but I remember that the narrator always ends with a letter to his (fictional) editor about how he's tracking down the information for the next book. And each book is dedicated to a fictional character called Beatrice. C. S. Lewis doesn't go to nearly so much trouble to create a fictional persona or framing device for the Narnia books. We're really only talking about a single quote from one book. The narrator of the Unfortunate Events books is also given a very specific style, which presumably isn't how the real author actually talks, whereas Narnia's narrator seems to convey the author's real opinions and personality.

I think that the framing device of a character telling the story to the author and the author then telling it to the world was actually pretty common back in the day. C. S. Lewis may have assumed everybody would "get it" and he wouldn't have to expound on it. Of course, I can't actually think of any other examples other than My Antonia by Willa Cather so maybe it wasn't that common. I thought I'd throw this out there anyway though. If someone can offer other examples, that's nice and if they tell me I'm wrong, well, at least I'll be the better educated.  

Interesting. Anyways I actually agree with you, I don’t think Handler and Lewis’s style is quite the same. I was just making the comparison because a narrator being someone who has actually knows the story reminds me of Handler’s style. Anyways, sorry if I came across as rude.

Posted by: @col-klink

@nicemice2023 Well, remember that C. S. Lewis hadn't written The Last Battle when he wrote The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. There's good internal evidence that he intended to end the series with VDT. After all, it ends with Edmund and Lucy, who were introduced in the first book and been prominently POV characters throughout the second two being told they will never return to Narnia and being given a summary of the reasons why they were brought to Narnia in the first place, the implication being that it corresponds to the readers' relationship with Narnia. (Though, to be sure, there's also evidence Lewis hadn't completely decided yet. He deliberately leaves open the possibility of Eustace returning.) The simplest and best explanation IMO is that he intended one thing when he was writing VDT and another thing later when he was writing LB.

I was just going to say pretty much exactly this if someone hadn't beaten me to it! I know there's a quote somewhere where Lewis stated that when he had finished VDT he was "quite sure it would be the last. But it was not to be so." (That's me quoting from memory, so it may not be exact.) Unfortunately I can't remember exactly which book I read that in, and I don't know what original document — perhaps one of Lewis's letters to a young fan or an older friend — it was quoted from. But I do have a distinct memory of reading it, and so I take it that that was Lewis's plan originally, to finish the series after only three books. That explains the almost-final feeling of the ending of VDT, with the journey to the very edge of the world and, as you say, a summary of the reasons why the children were brought to Narnia and the most direct hint we have of who Aslan is meant to be.

Lewis does leave it deliberately unanswered as to whether Eustace will be allowed back, so I suspect the idea was there at the back of his mind that there could be at least one more book in the series, but going by his own admission, he hadn't decided that for sure and was originally leaning more towards ending it there and keeping it as a trilogy. However, as SC was published the following year, it obviously wasn't too long before he changed his mind and got back to writing!

But that does explain the literary device there of Lewis-as-narrator indicating that he's spoken to Lucy in person and heard this story directly from her. I think, from memory, that's the only place in the series where he does that explicitly — there are other cases where he gives us some insight into the characters' thoughts and feelings about something significant well after the event (such as Polly and Digory having the memory of "all that golden goodness" of Aslan's mane with them, even years after he brought them back home from Narnia), but the VDT example is the only one I can think of where the narrator quotes himself as actually speaking to a character. I've always assumed that must reflect the fact that he hadn't planned out the rest of the series when he wrote VDT, so he hadn't yet thought up the final plot twist in LB, that the characters have all died (in our world and the mortal shadow-Narnia) and are now living eternally in Aslan's country. Once that happens, it no longer makes sense that Lewis could have heard this story directly from them! But again, that shows he changed his mind as he went on writing, and the "'Why,' said I..." interjection in VDT must just be an anomaly left over from before he'd decided to end the series in the way he did.

As for whether it was a common framing device to have the narrator tell the story as if they'd personally heard it from one of the characters, I don't know how popular that was in Lewis's day or earlier, but I can think of one example of classic literature where it happens in a sort of double fashion — Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights, in which the initial first-person narrator is recounting the narrative he heard from the old housekeeper who directly witnessed the events of the story. Most of it is told in her words, but we're occasionally brought back to the ongoing conversation between her and the original male narrator who's supposedly writing this story. I could look up all the details of it, but I don't have much more time and I have a lingering detestation of that particular book, having had to study it and write an exam on it for final-year high school English Literature class... ugh!!!  

Posted by: @icarus

The recent Netflix adaptations of Roald Dahl by Wes Anderson were quite interesting in that regard, in that they exclusively used the original narration from the book for all of the dialogue, and even had Ralph Feines appearing as Dahl himself (as well as several other characters on screen). Not sure such a meta- concept would work entirely for Narnia, but i enjoyed it as an offbeat cinematic experiment.

I've actually been thinking that if I were to adapt The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe for the screen, I would do something like that to set it apart from the other adaptations. (My model was more The Muppet Christmas Carol.) But I was scared to share the idea on Narniaweb lest others consider it too silly.  

Posted by: @courtenay

Posted by: @col-klink

@nicemice2023 Well, remember that C. S. Lewis hadn't written The Last Battle when he wrote The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. There's good internal evidence that he intended to end the series with VDT. After all, it ends with Edmund and Lucy, who were introduced in the first book and been prominently POV characters throughout the second two being told they will never return to Narnia and being given a summary of the reasons why they were brought to Narnia in the first place, the implication being that it corresponds to the readers' relationship with Narnia. (Though, to be sure, there's also evidence Lewis hadn't completely decided yet. He deliberately leaves open the possibility of Eustace returning.) The simplest and best explanation IMO is that he intended one thing when he was writing VDT and another thing later when he was writing LB.

I was just going to say pretty much exactly this if someone hadn't beaten me to it! I know there's a quote somewhere where Lewis stated that when he had finished VDT he was "quite sure it would be the last. But it was not to be so." (That's me quoting from memory, so it may not be exact.) Unfortunately I can't remember exactly which book I read that in, and I don't know what original document — perhaps one of Lewis's letters to a young fan or an older friend — it was quoted from. But I do have a distinct memory of reading it, and so I take it that that was Lewis's plan originally, to finish the series after only three books.

Wow, I didn’t realize VDT was supposed to be the last one. I guess it sort of does feel like it, but I feel maybe it could have been capped off a little better, so I’m a bit surprised. From what I know, Lewis had finished PC, VDT and HHB at the time LWW was released, so there probably was a gap between when he wrote VDT and SC.

Posted by: @courtenay

But that does explain the literary device there of Lewis-as-narrator indicating that he's spoken to Lucy in person and heard this story directly from her. I think, from memory, that's the only place in the series where he does that explicitly — there are other cases where he gives us some insight into the characters' thoughts and feelings about something significant well after the event (such as Polly and Digory having the memory of "all that golden goodness" of Aslan's mane with them, even years after he brought them back home from Narnia), but the VDT example is the only one I can think of where the narrator quotes himself as actually speaking to a character.

Which again, makes me think that perhaps VDT is actually a character who isn’t in that particular book who’s telling the story. If it wasn’t, I think we would see more of this sort of thing in the series (I don’t know it by heart but I also definitrly don’t know of any other instances when the narrator speaks to a character).

Posted by: @courtenay

I've always assumed that must reflect the fact that he hadn't planned out the rest of the series when he wrote VDT, so he hadn't yet thought up the final plot twist in LB, that the characters have all died (in our world and the mortal shadow-Narnia) and are now living eternally in Aslan's country. Once that happens, it no longer makes sense that Lewis could have heard this story directly from them!

But…that was exactly what I had just said! Did you not even read my post?  

Posted by: @nicemice2023  

Wow, I didn’t realize VDT was supposed to be the last one. I guess it sort of does feel like it, but I feel maybe it could have been capped off a little better, so I’m a bit surprised. From what I know, Lewis had finished PC, VDT and HHB at the time LWW was released, so there probably was a gap between when he wrote VDT and SC.

I wasn't sure about that, but I've just found corroboration in Past Watchful Dragons by Walter Hooper (one of the earliest Narnia commentaries, and well worth reading if you haven't before — it's out of print but there should be second hand copies available online).

According to Hooper, LWW was completed by the end of March 1949 and both PC and VDT were "completed by the end of February 1950". LWW itself was published on 16th October 1950 — that date's not given in Hooper's book, but I checked it in Wikipedia — and Hooper goes on to say: "Before the year [1950] was out, he had written The Silver Chair and The Horse and His Boy and made a start on The Magician's Nephew. The final instalment, The Last Battle, was written two years later." (Hooper, p. 40)

So that gives us the first three books completed before the end of February 1950, with the next two completed by the end of that year (gosh, Lewis was a faster writer than I realised, or else maybe he wasn't busy with many other things at the time!!). Presumably, given that Lewis wrote elsewhere that he was at first "quite sure" VDT would be the last book (I wish I could find the source for that quote!), there may have been a few months between him finishing writing VDT and then starting to write SC and/or HHB, but it obviously can't have been a very long gap.

(I should note that I'm not sure where Hooper got his information in what I quoted above, or how accurate it is, as elsewhere I've seen it stated that Lewis actually finished writing LB before he finished writing MN. But that's not important here.)

Getting back to what we're talking about — the interjection from the narrator in VDT where it seems he's actually having a conversation with Lucy — this just underscores the point we've all agreed on, that even though Lewis had definitely started on the later sequels by the time he finished writing VDT, he hadn't yet come up with the ultimate ending of the series, in which all the main characters have died and gone to Aslan's country, and so he couldn't possibly be interviewing any of them about their experiences there.

I think there's also pretty strong internal evidence that once Lewis had completed the final drafts of the Narnia books — even when there was a long gap (sometimes a few years) between completion and publication — he didn't spend time going back over them and making revisions before they went into print. There are just too many inconsistencies and contradictions between the stories themselves.

I'm actually quite stunned to see what a short space of time the first five books were completed in, and yet there are several big discrepancies between them that obviously neither Lewis himself nor his editors and publishers ever picked up. I could point out some of them here, but that would be going completely off topic! (There are several other discussion threads on NarniaWeb about inconsistencies between the books.)

Which again, makes me think that perhaps VDT is actually a character who isn’t in that particular book who’s telling the story. If it wasn’t, I think we would see more of this sort of thing in the series (I don’t know it by heart but I also definitrly don’t know of any other instances when the narrator speaks to a character).

I don't get that impression at all myself, as there's no other evidence anywhere in VDT that we're supposed to think the narrator is another character who isn't in this story but has appeared in others (the Professor, maybe, or Peter). If Lewis wanted that to be the case, he would have made it clear. Also, that's not something he does in any of the other books, and there's no reason why VDT should be different.

The "'What,' said I..." interjection sounds to me very much like Lewis's usual "narrator's voice" that comes in at times throughout all the Chronicles, where he writes as if he's telling this story directly to the reader in person. So it seems most logical that that's what he's doing here, too, and in this case imagining that he himself has spoken with Lucy and that's where he learned the story that he's telling us now. Possibly he realised that this might come across to readers as a bit odd — and eventually it must have become clear that it wouldn't work to keep up that bit of make-believe once he'd decided how the series as a whole was going to end — and so he didn't use that narrative device any further.

Posted by: @courtenay

I've always assumed that must reflect the fact that he hadn't planned out the rest of the series when he wrote VDT, so he hadn't yet thought up the final plot twist in LB, that the characters have all died (in our world and the mortal shadow-Narnia) and are now living eternally in Aslan's country. Once that happens, it no longer makes sense that Lewis could have heard this story directly from them!

But…that was exactly what I had just said! Did you not even read my post?  

Yes, I did read your post, and I agreed with it, which was why I was echoing what you said — especially as there were other people contributing posts to the discussion in the meantime. That's all.  

Posted by: @courtenay

I've always assumed that must reflect the fact that he hadn't planned out the rest of the series when he wrote VDT, so he hadn't yet thought up the final plot twist in LB, that the characters have all died (in our world and the mortal shadow-Narnia) and are now living eternally in Aslan's country. Once that happens, it no longer makes sense that Lewis could have heard this story directly from them!

But…that was exactly what I had just said! Did you not even read my post?  

Yes, I did read your post, and I agreed with it, which was why I was echoing what you said — especially as there were other people contributing posts to the discussion in the meantime. That's all.  

But you said it like it was your original thought, when I had already said it myself! So it felt like you were conpletely ignoring what I had said. I’m sorry if this is rude, but it just bothers me in general when people do that. It feels like they’re trying to take credit for my own thoughts that I’ve taken the time to share.

Posted by: @courtenay I don’t get that impression at all myself, as there's no other evidence anywhere in VDT that we're supposed to think the narrator is another character who isn't in this story but has appeared in others (the Professor, maybe, or Peter).

Oh my god, you did it again. I already theorized about it being Peter, Professor Kirke, Jill, Polly or even Susan telling the story, and you’re acting like you didn’t even see that either.

I know this all probably sounds pretty rude and I’m sorry. I’m autistic, and that’s probably why this sort of thing bothers me. 

Anyways, again, though, I’m really sorry. 

@nicemice2023 I think it might help explain your theory, if you could give an example of how the writing style for The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is different from that of the other Narnia books. 

Posted by: @nicemice2023

 

But you said it like it was your original thought, when I had already said it myself! So it felt like you were conpletely ignoring what I had said. I’m sorry if this is rude, but it just bothers me in general when people do that. It feels like they’re trying to take credit for my own thoughts that I’ve taken the time to share.

 ...

Oh my god, you did it again. I already theorized about it being Peter, Professor Kirke, Jill, Polly or even Susan telling the story, and you’re acting like you didn’t even see that either.

I know this all probably sounds pretty rude and I’m sorry. I’m autistic, and that’s probably why this sort of thing bothers me. 

Anyways, again, though, I’m really sorry. 

I think you did mention somewhere before that you're autistic, but even if you hadn't said that (or even if you weren't!), don't worry, I don't think you're being rude. We all get agitated about different things, just because everyone is different, and something that really upsets one person may not bother someone else at all. And that's OK.  

I just wanted to assure you that I definitely wasn't trying to take credit for your own thoughts — I did know you and others had suggested the same or similar things earlier in the thread and I was just reiterating them for clarity, not trying to claim they're "my" ideas instead of yours. Probably a lot of what I write here in NarniaWeb discussions has been said by others in other threads or on other websites, even when I'm not aware of it! Same goes for everyone else, really.

And please also be assured that I'm not offended by what you've said here and I don't think you're being rude at all. I'm enjoying the discussion with you and others here, and I will try to remember in future to check back on what you've already said and, if I want to reiterate it, add "As you said earlier..." (or similar words) so you can see I'm not trying to steal your ideas!  

Posted by: @courtenay

Posted by: @nicemice2023

 

But you said it like it was your original thought, when I had already said it myself! So it felt like you were conpletely ignoring what I had said. I’m sorry if this is rude, but it just bothers me in general when people do that. It feels like they’re trying to take credit for my own thoughts that I’ve taken the time to share.

 ...

Oh my god, you did it again. I already theorized about it being Peter, Professor Kirke, Jill, Polly or even Susan telling the story, and you’re acting like you didn’t even see that either.

I know this all probably sounds pretty rude and I’m sorry. I’m autistic, and that’s probably why this sort of thing bothers me. 

Anyways, again, though, I’m really sorry. 

I think you did mention somewhere before that you're autistic, but even if you hadn't said that (or even if you weren't!), don't worry, I don't think you're being rude. We all get agitated about different things, just because everyone is different, and something that really upsets one person may not bother someone else at all. And that's OK.  

I just wanted to assure you that I definitely wasn't trying to take credit for your own thoughts — I did know you and others had suggested the same or similar things earlier in the thread and I was just reiterating them for clarity, not trying to claim they're "my" ideas instead of yours. Probably a lot of what I write here in NarniaWeb discussions has been said by others in other threads or on other websites, even when I'm not aware of it! Same goes for everyone else, really.

And please also be assured that I'm not offended by what you've said here and I don't think you're being rude at all. I'm enjoying the discussion with you and others here, and I will try to remember in future to check back on what you've already said and, if I want to reiterate it, add "As you said earlier..." (or similar words) so you can see I'm not trying to steal your ideas!  

Okay, thank you so much for understanding. I’m still sorry that I was a bit frustrated. I’m always grateful when there are people like you who are patient and understanding when I voice my feelings (which can sometimes be OCD-related, too).

Mod note: Thank you both for settling this pleasantly. 

@coracle Of course, and I’m sorry I got frustrated. I’ll try not to let it happen again.

@nicemice2023 I really liked your joint idea that the narrator met them in the Real Narnia. Perhaps he was Digory after all.

Posted by: @coracle

@nicemice2023 I really liked your joint idea that the narrator met them in the Real Narnia. Perhaps he was Digory after all.

I don’t think I actually had that idea, to be honest, I was just thinking it was one of the other seven friends.