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Chapter 9 In the Witch's House

Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. We spend a lot of time with Edmund in this chapter. How would you describe him?

2. If Edmund had stayed just a little longer, he would have heard about the prophesy concerning the four thrones. Do you think that would have changed his actions?

3. Throughout this chapter Edmund either makes excuses or blames Peter to justify his behavior. Do you think this is because of the Turkish Delight enchantment, or is Edmund entirely to blame for his actions?

4. Compare and contrast this chapter with the corresponding section in the film. Do you think the film brings out some facets of Edmund's character that we don't see at this point in the book? In the book, where, exactly, does Edmund realize his mistake, and why do you think the filmmakers chose to alter this?


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Topic starter Posted : October 26, 2013 4:44 am
King_Erlian
(@king_erlian)
NarniaWeb Guru

1. We spend a lot of time with Edmund in this chapter. How would you describe him?

Pretty much like most younger brothers who feel put upon by older siblings (I can definitely sympathise!). I admire his tenacity in keeping going (without a coat) to the Witch's house; I think I would have given up almost as soon as I'd started and gone back, hoping that another, better opportunity to get away would have presented itself later. When he gets to the Witch's house and starts scribbling on the lion's face, he's acting in a very childish way, but he had just been frightened nearly to death, and was probably still fairly frightened. He seems to suffer a pang of conscience when he sees the statue of the Faun.

2. If Edmund had stayed just a little longer, he would have heard about the prophesy concerning the four thrones. Do you think that would have changed his actions?
Probably not, as even if he'd understood that the prophecy was about them, that would have created a situation where Peter was still top dog and he would still be answerable to him. He wanted to be the King and have Peter serve him.

3. Throughout this chapter Edmund either makes excuses or blames Peter to justify his behavior. Do you think this is because of the Turkish Delight enchantment, or is Edmund entirely to blame for his actions?
To be honest, I think the enchantment of the Turkish Delight must have pretty well worn off by now. It was days (by his reckoning) since he'd tasted it. Although Lewis describes the Turkish Delight as "enchanted Turkish Delight and that anyone who had once tasted it would want more and more of it, and would even, if they were allowed, go on eating it till they killed themselves", I think the real enchantment only operated while the person was eating it. Now, it was only the memory of it that was spurring Edmund on. Otherwise, we have the problem of, where in the story was the enchantment lifted?

4. Compare and contrast this chapter with the corresponding section in the film. Do you think the film brings out some facets of Edmund's character that we don't see at this point in the book? In the book, where, exactly, does Edmund realize his mistake, and why do you think the filmmakers chose to alter this?
I don't think Edmund has fully realised his mistake yet in the book - I think that comes in Chapter 11, although he suspects he's joined the wrong side deep down. In the film, he gets to meet Mr. Tumnus before the Witch turns him to stone, and hears his defiance. The Witch says, "You are here because this boy betrayed you for sweeties." That's the point in the film where I think he realises his mistake. In the book, he sees her killing innocent Narnian creatures and sees what a horrible, cruel tyrant she really is; but in the film, it's brought home to him forcefully that innocent people are dying because of him.

Other thoughts:

1. Why didn't the Witch destroy Cair Paravel to prevent the prophecy from coming true? Was there any magic protecting it?

2. The entrance hall to the Witch's house, with its pillars and statues, seems reminiscent of the hall in the palace in Charn.

3. Why did Edmund "take great care not to tread on the Wolf's paws" when the Wolf had stood up by this time?

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Posted : October 28, 2013 3:35 am
ValiantArcher
(@valiantarcher)
BC Head and G&B Mod Moderator

3. I think Edmund was completely responsible for his actions; yes, the Turkish Delight was enchanted, but it's not controlling him. He's been beastly throughout the book, so his actions here are a natural continuation of that.

Good question about why the White Witch didn't destroy Cair Paravel, King_Erlian! :) It could have been specifically enchanted against her, or it might be that it just filled her with dread so that she never went or sent anywhere near it. I'm not really sure, though.
Also, I know from experience with dogs that you can still tread on their paws when they're standing, if you're not careful. And Maugrim is not someone you'd want to step on. ;))

God rest you merry, gentlemen,
Let nothing you dismay.
Remember Christ our Savior
Was born on Christmas Day
To save us all from Satan's pow'r
When we were gone astray.

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Posted : February 13, 2014 11:48 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. We spend a lot of time with Edmund in this chapter. How would you describe him?
He is a very angry person. He is mean and vengeful. He is skilled at convincing himself things he knows are wrong are right. He isn't all bad. He seems a little conflicted. He's going to the witch and he was invited but he is still scared of her house and the statues.
2. If Edmund had stayed just a little longer, he would have heard about the prophesy concerning the four thrones. Do you think that would have changed his actions?
No, he was too set on having power over Peter. He would not want to share power.
3. Throughout this chapter Edmund either makes excuses or blames Peter to justify his behavior. Do you think this is because of the Turkish Delight enchantment, or is Edmund entirely to blame for his actions?
I think the Turkish Delight helped Edmund to go wrong. I think the Turkish Delight numbed his judgement and conscience a little. Edmund has a history of being nasty. He also doesn't like being told what to do by his older siblings so it is logical he would act out against Peter. I don't think it is unreasonable he would want power over Peter. If Ed were on trial and his lawyers tried to argue that he was not to blame by reasons of Turkish Delight, he might get a lighter sentence but I don't think he would be off the hook.
4. Compare and contrast this chapter with the corresponding section in the film. Do you think the film brings out some facets of Edmund's character that we don't see at this point in the book? In the book, where, exactly, does Edmund realize his mistake, and why do you think the filmmakers chose to alter this?
I think he realizes how bad the witch really is at pretty much the same spot- when the witch is meant to him and he doesn't get Turkish Delight. He does start feeling sorry for others faster in the movie. He also withholds information until later in the movie where he says it all right away in the book. The movie doesn't show his struggles to get to the witch - the hard journey and the tense fear.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Topic starter Posted : June 19, 2014 4:12 pm
Ryadian
(@rya)
Member Moderator

1. We spend a lot of time with Edmund in this chapter. How would you describe him?
Very, very stubborn, and prone to grudges. I find it interesting that Peter, alone, seems to be the focus of his anger--not Lucy for finding the wardrobe, not Susan for not standing up for him, not Mr. Beaver for ruining any chance he had of convincing the others to come with him--just Peter, for getting angry with him and distrusting him after finding out the lie he told.

At the same time, C. S. Lewis is sure to tell us that Edmund does not believe--at least, he tries not to believe--that anything bad will happen to his siblings, other than that he'll get to humiliate them and be in power over them. Edmund isn't a thoroughly horrible person at this point--he's just consumed by spitefulness and greed, and even then, we have to give him some consideration for being a child.

2. If Edmund had stayed just a little longer, he would have heard about the prophesy concerning the four thrones. Do you think that would have changed his actions?
No, I don't. I think Tumnus's arrest, the Witch's initial reaction to him (as well as some of the things she said later) and Mr. Beaver's explanation,should have been enough for anyone to realize that the Witch had lied to him and was using him. He was already too convinced of the Witch's goodness (or, perhaps more accurately, that he was right) for anything short of finding out the hard way to shake him loose. Besides that, the prophecy refers to the end of the Witch's life--if he believes her to be a good Queen, then he can easily misinterpret this prophecy as treason.

3. Throughout this chapter Edmund either makes excuses or blames Peter to justify his behavior. Do you think this is because of the Turkish Delight enchantment, or is Edmund entirely to blame for his actions?
I think the Turkish Delight is what gave Edmund the "courage" to leave the Beaver's house and walk to the White Witch's house, since he should hold the same kind of fearful respect for her that the others do for Aslan. I do not, however, think that the enchantment is responsible for his actions, Edmund is; the Turkish Delight had nothing to do with his opinion of Peter or the others, that was there before he started eating it. Neither did it cause him to be nasty to Lucy before ever discovering Narnia. The most the Turkish Delight did was give him a reason to betray his family, even if he doesn't see it as such (yet).

4. Compare and contrast this chapter with the corresponding section in the film. Do you think the film brings out some facets of Edmund's character that we don't see at this point in the book? In the book, where, exactly, does Edmund realize his mistake, and why do you think the filmmakers chose to alter this?
Honestly, I'm reading the book a chapter at a time, so I can't judge exactly when this happens. Since the interpretation of when this happens can depend on the adaptation (in the Focus on the Family audio drama, he still hasn't figured it out at this point), I want to reserve that judgment until I get to that point in the book again. Thus far, though, I don't think it has; after all, he still told the Witch everything he knew--and while that might've been partly out of fear, I think it has just as much to do with his lingering hope for Turkish Delight. Perhaps he figures it out when the Witch calls for the sledge, planning to hunt down the Beavers and his siblings, and has yet to fulfill her promise of Turkish Delight--but we don't see his reaction to this by the end of this chapter.

In the film, I think Edmund realizes his mistake shortly after ending up in prison (which is hard to determine where this happens in relation to the book), because there's nothing in the world that can convince him of the Witch's goodness at this point. As for why they changed it... I think it's likely to give us a chance to see that Edmund isn't thoroughly awful. When he sees Mr. Tumnus in prison, we can see the regrets he has. The book lets us know about this through narration, a luxury the movie didn't have, so this is one way to establish that.

Something else I find interesting about this chapter, and the one where Edmund meets the Witch--why does she call it her "house"? She's already told Edmund that she (thinks she) is the Queen of Narnia, and has promised to make him a King--why not tell him it's a castle? I know when I was younger, I thought it was just to make her dwelling sound more warm and inviting, but... she's shown no problem with flaunting her position/power to gain Edmund's affection/loyalty before. Why would she change her mind?

N-Web sis of stardf, _Rillian_, & jerenda
Proud to be Sirya the Madcap Siren

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Posted : September 10, 2014 5:22 pm
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. We spend a lot of time with Edmund in this chapter. How would you describe him?

Angry, hurt, self-justifying. He has aspirations towards leadership, but he is mistaken in how he is supposed to achieve his destiny.

2. If Edmund had stayed just a little longer, he would have heard about the prophesy concerning the four thrones. Do you think that would have changed his actions?

Probably not.

Edmund wants to rule, but he wants to rule his way. He thinks the queen will let him do as he pleases while he is a prince, and he assumes he can do precisely what he wants when he is king. He is not favorable towards submission.

It takes the rest of the book for him to learn that the path to authority is through obedience.

3. Throughout this chapter Edmund either makes excuses or blames Peter to justify his behavior. Do you think this is because of the Turkish Delight enchantment, or is Edmund entirely to blame for his actions?

This is Edmund's doing. The Turkish Delight is a strong addiction. He has to serve the queen in order to fulfill that craving. That might give him the occasion to justify his behavior, but it is not the direct cause for it.

4. Compare and contrast this chapter with the corresponding section in the film. Do you think the film brings out some facets of Edmund's character that we don't see at this point in the book? In the book, where, exactly, does Edmund realize his mistake, and why do you think the filmmakers chose to alter this?

I think in the book Edmund realizes his mistake two chapters later, and yet in basically the same part of the story as the movie. In both the book and the film, when the Witch tells the wolves to kill his family, then he realizes that he's made a terrible mistake.

In general, the movie goes a long way to make Edmund a sympathetic character from the beginning, and I'm not sure the result is better than in the source material. In the book what I admire about the writing is that Edmund is basically the brat and you don't much care for him until Lewis starts making him a pitiful character in chapter 11. Then, for each chapter after that, you start to care about Edmund more and more.

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : September 30, 2014 9:00 am
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