Forum

Share:
Notifications
Clear all

An Unexpected Journey: The Movie Version

Page 4 / 4
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

About the Witch King of Angmar, do you think he really died and was buried deep or was this something he staged, himself, at the point he finally realised he was getting a bit stretched and less visible to his men, without his armour?

He staged it himself - now that finally makes sense. ;)

He didn't really die and be buried, the whole point is that he was in an undead state, he was bound to the power of his ring and the power of Sauron. He couldn't die and ordinary weapons couldn't kill him - but only because ordinary life had been sucked out of him, NOT because he had been "resurrected" in any way. Any hinting of that in the movie just shows lack of understanding of the book.

But it might well be in his interest to have people think so!
Yes, it makes sense that he staged it, to make it easier to explain the changes that were happening to his body. And the longer time that passed since his staging it, the more it would be covered in the mist of legend, and the more people would believe that this is what actually happened.

Apart from those who knew about Sauron and his vices, of course.


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 29, 2013 6:17 pm
waggawerewolf27
(@waggawerewolf27)
Member Hospitality Committee

Well, that is what I think anyway, and unless the two succeeding parts of 'The Hobbit' say something different, that will be my explanation for the Witch king. There was a Northern king who challenged him in battle, and that was when he said that no man could kill him. I found it in the detailed appendices of LOTR. Either that Northern king or maybe another one, died of a morgul wound, and did have a funeral. It is a while since I have read LOTR, so I really need to go back and look again.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 31, 2013 12:07 pm
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

I'm so glad to have an explanation of that phenomenon. It didn't make sense, but now it does.

There was a Northern king who challenged him in battle, and that was when he said that no man could kill him. I found it in the detailed appendices of LOTR. Either that Northern king or maybe another one, died of a morgul wound, and did have a funeral.

I remember that. I think it was said about him, rather than him saying it about himself.
*goes to look up the exact quote*

'But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
'Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
Appendix A, I (iv) Gondor and the heirs of Anarion

So Glorfindel, one of the Elf-lords of Rivendell, had the gift of foresight and said it about the Witch-king.

Ëarnur was the king of Gondor, actually, but there had been a Northern king, Arveleg, who had been killed in a battle against the Witch-king some years earlier. I think many of these stories were mixed together over time in the non-scholarly history-telling, and thus the story of a mortal king who died from a morgul wound got attributed to the Witch-king, who needed that story for his own purposes.


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 31, 2013 5:11 pm
waggawerewolf27
(@waggawerewolf27)
Member Hospitality Committee

Also the appendices to LOTR are supposed to have been compiled after events happened. In Bilbo's day nothing yet had unfolded, and so if they didn't know about Dol Guldur, and the Necromancer being Sauron, they wouldn't have known about the Witch King fleeing to Mordor, either.

Thanks for the quotation and yes, I did find it, though I vaguely remember also a fuller account of the fight between Eärnur and the Witch king somewhere else in the Unfinished tales or elsewhere. According to the appendices, the Witch King, who had been holed up in Angmar and in Rhudaur, was vanquished at Fornost and fled to Mordor to gather around him the other Nazgul.

I'd also expect that someone who had been injured with a morgul knife might be buried with special precautions, just in case.

Having finally found my copy of The Hobbit, I have just started to reread it. Does anyone know if Beorn will be in the new movie? Beorn would be easily my favourite character in The Hobbit, and the sneaky way Gandalf introduces the dwarves quite entertaining.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 1, 2013 12:20 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

I’ve copied some of my “essentials” and then grouped them based on how the movie did with them.
Yes/mostly:
The "good morning" conversation,
the dwaves' songs :D :D
the general distress of Bilbo,
the conflict between Thorin and Gandalf over Bilbo.
I'd like to see him him sitting off by himself nibbling at a biscuit because he lost his appetite,
Bilbo's worrying about a pocket handkerchief and Gandalf's bringing him some.
Bilbo to start to say burglar and end up being called a burrahobbit (I think that was there …)
the cook better than I cook line (once again I think that was in there)
Bilbo’s and Gollum’s conversation including the riddles word for word,
Bilbo’s overhearing Gollum describe what the ring can do
Bilbo’s having to get pass the goblins to escape
Bilbo’s losing his buttons and the Goblins picking them up (the first part happened but sadly not the second)
Bilbo’s sneaking pass Balin
Dori’s leaving Bilbo behind and having to get him and being almost gotten by a Warg
Gandalf’s sending different colored burning pinecones at the Wargs

Not included or done wrong
Bilbo saying struck by lightening.
Gandalf's having to come and get Bilbo
I want Bilbo to leave without telling anyone
The dwarfs being caught easily, excluding Thorin
Gandalf MUST save them by trickery and not by violence.
Bilbo's not producing the key until they have tried a lot of ways to open the door.
I want the elves to sing and joke but I don't want it to be too jarring with the Rivendell we saw in LotR.
Thorin and Gandalf should be a bit vexed that Elrond finds the moon letters.
Gandalf's examining the shelter carefully.
Bilbo's yelling surprisingly loud for his size, Dori and the other dwarfs carrying Bilbo.
Finding the ring by accident, (He saw it fall)
Bilbo’s accidently getting the time riddle, Gollum’s running pass Bilbo when he is invisible, , Bilbo’s leaping over Gollum,
Gandalf and the dwarves’ arguing about what to do about Bilbo – word for word
Bilbo’s explanation – word for word,
the company sliding down the rocks,
the eagles coming out of curiosity
the goblins laughing, the goblins’ setting the company’s trees on fire and singing,
Gandalf’s getting ready to jump, the eagles rescuing him,
Bilbo’s having to grab Dori’s legs to be saved, (I think someone did hang on to Dori’s legs but I don’t remember who it was)
Gandalf’s discussing with the Eagles how far they will take them,
NO FIGHTING except for with pine cones. (I was very upset with the charge of Thorin, Bilbo, etc. Bilbo in particular should not have had anything to do with the fighting)

And now some more thoughts. I was very disappointed that Bilbo started to abandon the dwarves. That is not in his character. I did not like that they added Azog (sp?). At first I really hated Radagast but now I’ve warm up to him a bit. I still don’t like the scene when he meets up with Gandalf but the early scenes aren’t as bad as I first thought. I was impressed with the way they did Thorin’s character. I was afraid that he would suffer a weakening of character like some leaders in the LotR movies. Thorin is every bit the leader and feels he deserves to be the leader. His stubbornness comes through clearly as well. I’m not saying that Thorin is necessarily an excellent leader. His stubbornness gets him and his followers into trouble. Bilbo’s character seems to be developing too quickly. In the book, he completely bungles the Troll incident. In the movie he is able to think fast enough to stall the trolls. In the book, he doesn’t do any fighting until the spiders and in the movie he has already fought with the orcs.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 17, 2013 2:32 pm
Page 4 / 4
Share: