I'd like to apologize for that political thing earlier. It was really my fault.  

I'd also like to ask...of all the recent books and movies that have taken inspiration from the story of the Garden of Eden, have there been any of them that portrayed disobeying God and partaking of the forbidden fruit as ultimately a good thing? Besides the explicitly Christian ones, I mean? From what I can remember, they all tend to portray losing innocence and gaining independence as a painful (if that) but ultimately necessary for maturity. This is in part because artsy people, who make books and movies, tend to value exploration and freedom. If Netflix and Gerwig really are going to be true to the Christian themes of the story, they're doing something kind of unprecedented. 

Not that they can't do something unprecedented. I mean, the idea that doing certain things is bad isn't a specifically Christian idea. Every worldview I've ever encountered believed there was something or other that should never be done. And Greta Gerwig may be artsy but she's also a parent. One of my favorite bloggers once wrote that it's impossible to take loving care of little kids and also believe that love means letting someone have or do whatever they want. Along similar lines, in an episode of the Talking Beasts podcast, one of the podcasters said that Aslan's line from The Magician's Nephew about people defending themselves against everything that could do them good really resonated with him recently. What made it resonate? Being a parent of small children.  

Incidentally, while the story isn't explicitly alluded to in MN as is the forbidden fruit story, if Gerwig likes having a biblical narrative in the back of her mind while writing her stories, she might want to think of the story of Abraham almost sacrificing his son, which is also from the book of Genesis. (In the climax of The Magician's Nephew, Digory sort of has to sacrifice his mother. Once he shows he's willing to do so, it turns out he doesn't have to sacrifice her after all.) 

@Col Klink 

I'd also like to ask...of all the recent books and movies that have taken inspiration from the story of the Garden of Eden, have there been any of them that portrayed disobeying God and partaking of the forbidden fruit as ultimately a good thing? Besides the explicitly Christian ones, I mean?

To a point, no, but not only for books that took inspiration from the Garden of Eden. God might not necessarily be mentioned in more non-religious books, let alone the Garden of Eden, itself, even if a stray Biblical text by chance is directly quoted, such as Matthew 6: 21 on a relevant epitaph. But when, according to the Harry Potter books, it is our choices which make us who we are, according to the main theme of these seven books, at any rate, I'd certainly put the Harry Potter books in your particular perspective as well as those who actually mention some sort of Garden of Eden situation. The Biblical Eve did come to grief because of the snake's arguing against God, when God told Adam directly, rather than Eve, beguiled by the snake, & when, by his not being there to back her up, he got included in the temptation as well. After all, he, like Eve, was hungry & the fruit tasted good. Shouldn't he have thrown a tantrum like many a baby, & said no, he wasn't eating that forbidden fruit, even if she did? But it was a lousy choice for both of them, all the same, which definitely had consequences. 

Yesterday, when I returned home by train, full of school students, four schoolboys, from one particular school, decided to ride in the space where one carriage joins the next, despite direct orders not to do so, posted in English, clearly, on signs over each doorway, "DO NOT TRAVEL IN THE SPACE BETWEEN CARRIAGES". People changing carriages passed them by, their body language emitting disapproval, whilst other passengers inside the carriage murmured about getting the Police or notifying the headmaster of their school. As one woman pointed out, as a member of the public, she had just as much right to insist they obey the safety order, as they did as members of the public, to wilfully disobey it. Finally, when one boy reached his stop, the three others vanished to the other carriage, to our intense relief. Just because that space has been made safer than on earlier model train carriages, doesn't mean that people should disobey the instructions, let alone risk their bodily integrity by poking their fingers into the crevices they might find there.  

What lemming-like motivation made any of these four boys, all wearing the same identifiable school uniform, think it was "cool" to directly disobey a safety instruction, God-Given or not? Jadis had knowledge of the Deplorable Word, passed down through her family for generations. Her family knew that something dreadful would happen if they used it. But Jadis chose to disobey that warning, considering her ancestors were weak. When she arrived at the walled garden with the apple, she disobeyed a sign clearly posted up to use the gate or do not enter, climbing over the wall to enter the premises, then helped herself to fruit when it was only meant to be collected for others. Not only did Jadis disobey the sign on the gate as if it meant nothing, but then she went on to encourage others to do the same. 

Incidentally, while the story isn't explicitly alluded to in MN as is the forbidden fruit story, if Gerwig likes having a biblical narrative in the back of her mind while writing her stories, she might want to think of the story of Abraham almost sacrificing his son, which is also from the book of Genesis. (In the climax ofThe Magician's Nephew, Digory sort of has to sacrifice his mother. Once he shows he's willing to do so, it turns out he doesn't have to sacrifice her after all.) 

Yes, you could say that MN has a link to the old story of Abraham sacrificing his son. But I think there are other biblical references in the story of MN, which you might also remember, even if not spelled out for the reader. Such as how sinful we all are. And how bad choices may lead to consequences, leading to further bad choices, if not mindful of what one is commanded to do. Such as Deuteronomy 30: 19. ("Therefore, choose life...").

Yes, you could say that MN has a link to the old story of Abraham sacrificing his son.

The deeper magic before the Deep magic of LWW? 

Id say there are usually a few different dynamics seen in movies (and storytelling in general) that follow this sort of trope.

First you have movies such as The Matrix (a film laden with religious symbology) whereby a character is presented with a choice between knowledge and ignorance, and the choice of knowledge is presented as the preferable of the two choices, even if it comes at some personal cost and sacrifice.

Then you have films whereby the hero is tempted by ultimate knowledge and power, but has to demonstrate their humility by rejecting it. This is a common trope of comic book stories, in which the villain, often a mad scientist, is driven too far in his pursuit of knowledge. Usually the villain is presented as the mirror image of the hero, and has similar goals, but the villain didn't know their limits and went too far. Often the villain will actually get what they want (ultimate knowledge and power) but they are then punished for their hubris, whereas the hero is rewarded for their humility in rejecting it. I'm thinking of things like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, or even Aladdin.

Then similar, but differently, you have movies in which the ability to accept ultimate knowledge or power is only attainable by those who are worthy or selfless. Again, usually the villain is punished for their bad deeds upon accepting the knowledge, but the hero is rewarded for their good deeds and is allowed to accept it. I'm thinking of things here like the end of Indiana Jones 3, maybe Guardians of the Galaxy, probably a bunch of other stuff I can't quite recall.

Id say Magician's Nephew probably follows this third convention - Digory is able to accept the offer of the apple, but only after he has demonstrated selflessness and good character, whereas the same apple ultimately defeats the villain, because she is of bad character, and is accordingly punished..

@ icarus

Then you have films whereby the hero is tempted by ultimate knowledge and power, but has to demonstrate their humility by rejecting it. This is a common trope of comic book stories, in which the villain, often a mad scientist, is driven too far in his pursuit of knowledge. Usually the villain is presented as the mirror image of the hero, and has similar goals, but the villain didn't know their limits and went too far. Often the villain will actually get what they want (ultimate knowledge and power) but they are then punished for their hubris, whereas the hero is rewarded for their humility in rejecting it. I'm thinking of things like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, or even Aladdin.

And that trope that you mention is also in Jesus Christ's Temptation by the Devil in three of the four gospels, (Matthew, Mark & Luke) and is also mentioned in the Epistle to the Hebrews. That is the one where Jesus Christ, having been baptised by John the Baptist, fasted for 40 days & nights in the desert, where Satan offered him the world. But Jesus Christ rejected that offer, the very one so many megalomaniac rulers have taken up, I suspect. Wikipedia also says: The temptation of Christ is not explicitly mentioned in the Gospel of John but in this gospel Jesus does refer to the Devil, "the prince of this world", having no power over him. 

Yes, Jadis in MN does the exact opposite, we don't know for how long before Digory & Polly came on to the scene, considering her people who warned her against using the Deplorable Word as weak. She seems to hop right in, wanting to gain her whole world by using the Deplorable Word, but in doing so was really left with nothing, as well as losing her soul, if she ever had one, in the process. Being in suspended animation as a statue in the Hall of Statues isn't much of a way to enjoy being Prince of the Whole World having won Victory at any price. 

Here's the question for this thread then...

Has Greta Gerwig just answered the central question posited by the topic with her Meryl Streep casting choice...

In other words, could a Female Aslan be the "Eve" of Magician's Nephew?

I haven't thought through the logic of that statement at all just yet.... I'm just interested to see if people think one thing might explain the other.

Posted by: @icarus

Here's the question for this thread then...

Has Greta Gerwig just answered the central question posited by the topic with her Meryl Streep casting choice...

In other words, could a Female Aslan be the "Eve" of Magician's Nephew?

I haven't thought through the logic of that statement at all just yet.... I'm just interested to see if people think one thing might explain the other.

Hmmm, interesting question, but I can't see how that makes sense. In talking about "Eve" in this thread, we were talking about the Biblical character and the theme of temptation, and whether or not any character(s) in The Magician's Nephew could fit that mould.

If Aslan is to still be Aslan, then even a female Aslan has to be presented as Narnia's God / Christ figure, the Creator and Redeemer of the world. An Eve character, whatever her exact identity, is a created being who is tempted by evil in some way. She can't be the God-character.

Also, Aslan — by virtue of being, well, God — doesn't have any amount of character development in the traditional sense. He (or she) doesn't have to face and overcome temptation in order to grow as a character and achieve some greater goal —and likewise, Aslan also doesn't give in to evil and become more and more corrupted by it. Of course in LWW, Aslan suffers and dies, but he comes back the same as before. He doesn't have an "arc", so to speak, in either direction.

So if Aslan really is being cast as female, I don't think it can be for the purpose of adding an "Eve" aspect to the story. I really think — if it happens — it can only be a deliberate statement about gendered representations of divinity.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, nothing really immediately jumps out to me about this updated theory, other than maybe the superficial fact that if Digory is Adam, and Jadis is the Serpent, then Aslan is the only remaining party left in the whole apple transaction - but again, Narnia is not strict allegory.

It's more the case that we went down this rabbit hole to start with on the hunch that it might be a particular thematic angle on Feminity that GG might be interested in exploring, but we couldn't quite pin down who would be the most appropriate female character to establish the metaphor.

... and then Suddenly GG serves us up a brand new female character out of nowhere.

Obviously we have no idea to what extent Female Aslan would resemble Male Aslan (either physically or as a character) but assuming that he is still notionally the same character, then I guess there's not a tonne of new material to explore with it.

Posted by: @icarus

It's more the case that we went down this rabbit hole to start with on the hunch that it might be a particular thematic angle on Feminity that GG might be interested in exploring, but we couldn't quite pin down who would be the most appropriate female character to establish the metaphor.

... and then Suddenly GG serves us up a brand new female character out of nowhere.

Yes, and honestly, between the Female Aslan rumour and the new (and actually confirmed) casting call, all this is just making my head spin.    

@Courtenay

So if Aslan really is being cast as female, I don't think it can be for the purpose of adding an "Eve" aspect to the story. I really think — if it happens — it can only be a deliberate statement about gendered representations of divinity.

What an interesting thought!  Yesterday, when I included in the Meryl Streep thread, our Daily Telegraph comment on a Narnia fan backlash, I noticed their careful description of Aslan as "Narnia's Guardian". A whole lot better than the commentary of the English tabloids, quoting atheist Philip Pullman, who considered C.S. Lewis to be a Christian bigot. In the third volume of "His dark materials", he portrayed an elderly male character called "the Ancient of Days", bullied by the Archangel Michael. Unfortunately, his overly complex anti-Christian version of the Archangel Michael's crowd over 3 books never inspired me anywhere near as much as did C.S.Lewis' Narnia. 

@icarus

In other words, could a Female Aslan be the "Eve" of Magician's Nephew?

Eve was never really a temptress in her own right. She was the tempted, who failed to resist the initial temptation, just as Adam was. It is our own choices which make us who we are. However, we don't know anything really about Aslan's back story, apart from the existence of the Deeper magic before time, as well as Jadis' understanding of the Deep magic before time. That points to Aslan's intentions in creating Narnia at all, before the arrival of Jadis & co in early July of 1900, our time. 

I understand, also, that C.S. Lewis called his Chronicles of Narnia a "supposal". 

I wonder if "Eve" won't necessarily be applied to one character? Perhaps the film will explore temptation as an overarching theme and a vital aspect of the creation story? We'll see how the human characters are tempted throughout the story, and how they handle these situations. Do they follow through or do they resist temptation?

• Uncle Andrew's temptation to not burn Mrs. Lefay's magic box. Ultimately, he messes with magic -- meeting devilish people and experiencing disagreeable things along the way.
• Digory gives into the temptation to ring the bell, but he then resists the temptation to eat the apple. I think this is a great example of character growth!
• I'm not sure if this counts, but Uncle Andrew offers to give one of his rings to Polly. Is it considered temptation to touch one of the rings if Uncle Andrew is giving it to her and she doesn't know it's capabilities? Maybe this moment could be amped up as she debates whether or not to take up Uncle Andrew's offer? Then, she helps Digory resist temptation in the garden -- another great example of character growth.