Posted by: @courtenay

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that!! "Portrayed right", for me at least, would mean keeping true to each character's nature and role in the original stories, even where they may decide to change a few things for the sake of the film (expanding someone's role a bit or giving a character more of a back story, for example — provided it's believable and consistent with what we already know of the character, I'm generally fine with that).

I can't argue with that either. I'd be in favor of expanding Emeth's role. We might be able see his shock and anger when he learns that Rishda, his own captain, doesn't believe in Tash.

Even with the Telmarines, maybe we could get an episode about Caspian X's birth, and see Miraz's bitterness and anger. We might even see him kill Caspian IX, his brother.

Posted by: @courtenay

I honestly cannot see how they could do that even if they wanted to, or indeed why they would try. Rabadash and Rishda are both mortals (unlike the Witches) and, going by Lewis's timeline, they live over 1500 years apart. Plus Rabadash is a member of the Calormene royal family, the son of the Tisroc and heir to the throne; Rishda is obviously a high-ranking nobleman and army general, but there's no suggestion that he's closely related to royalty. I don't see how any potential director would even get the vague notion that they could be the same person.

True. Though I think it is mentioned that the Tisroc in The Horse And His Boy is mentioned to have 17 or 18 sons (and Rabadash is obviously the oldest). I think the other sons of the Tisroc are given the title of "Tarkaan" (anyone out there reading this, correct me if I'm wrong). And it wouldn't be no surprise if Rabadash had multiple sons. Any of them could have the title of "Tarkaan" (I honestly never understood why they use it as the last word instead of the first word, but that can be another discussion).

And yes, Rishda is a military leader. He did belong to the upper class society, and his treatment of the lower-class would just be as the same as any upper class would treat them.

I humbly pray filmmakers don't make the decision of making the two Calormenes Rabadash and Rishda into one! (and please no April Fool's joke!) Though I am pretty confidant it's not going to happen!

Posted by: @courtenay

Anyway, for all this talk about the Calormenes, they actually only appear in two out of the seven books. So I would also hope any future directors don't exaggerate their role and make them into "THE" overarching antagonists of Narnia when in fact they only play a relatively small role in the saga overall!

It would be a terrible decision, yes! Also, they better find good story writing for both the Calormenes and Telmarines!

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

Even with the Telmarines, maybe we could get an episode about Caspian X's birth, and see Miraz's bitterness and anger. We might even see him kill Caspian IX, his brother.

I'm not sure how well that would work with the way the story is plotted, since we're seeing it mainly from young Caspian's point of view. He's never really got along well with his uncle and aunt, but it's a significant part of the plot that he doesn't realise just how evil they are — and that his own life is in danger — until Doctor Cornelius urges him to flee:

"... Now that he has a son of his own he will want his own son to be the next King. You are in the way. He'll clear you out of the way."

"Is he really as bad as that?" said Caspian. "Would he really murder me?"

"He murdered your Father," said Doctor Cornelius.

That's the moment we too, as readers, first find that out, and I haven't forgotten the chill it gave me as a seven-year-old. Obviously a screen version doesn't need to follow the exact structure of the book (and there may be times when it suits a film better not to), but good writers know how to build up the intrigue and suspense without giving too much away too early. We could perhaps have a hint early on that Caspian IX's death was rather sudden and odd, but if we're actually shown it happening, that takes away the element of surprise and fear that young Caspian himself feels when he finds out. Plus seeing a character being murdered would almost certainly take this above a PG rating!!

And it wouldn't be no surprise if Rabadash had multiple sons. Any of them could have the title of "Tarkaan"

True — I don't think it's ever made clear where the title "Tarkaan" comes from and which families are granted it, and whether or not it signifies they're closely related to the royal family. We're first introduced to the title in HHB and simply told the stranger in the first chapter was "a Tarkaan or great lord", and I'm pretty sure we don't get any further details about the term and where it comes from. 

(I honestly never understood why they use it as the last word instead of the first word, but that can be another discussion).

Most likely to increase the sense of the "exotic", since in modern English we normally put titles before names. There are other languages that do it the other way around — name first, then title — just as there are languages / cultures where a person's surname is put before their given name. I'm sure I read somewhere that even in Old English (as in Anglo-Saxon English before the Norman invasion), it was normal to put the title "King" after the king's given name, not before. Even though the Calormenes apparently speak modern English, in the same way as other peoples in the Narnian world, a linguistic quirk like that helps to show their culture is different from the Narnians'.

I humbly pray filmmakers don't make the decision of making the two Calormenes Rabadash and Rishda into one! (and please no April Fool's joke!) Though I am pretty confidant it's not going to happen!

I still can't understand why there should be any fear of such a decision — as @col-klink said too, how could the filmmakers possibly do that unless they move the timing of HHB so that it's set between SC and LB? Which would make absolutely no sense plot-wise, as it would mean it can't be set during the time of the Pevensies' reign, which messes up a key element of the plot (Rabadash being desperate to marry Queen Susan, hence why he plans the invasion) and takes away the already-familiar characters that connect this story with the other ones we know. Why on earth would a screenwriter decide to do that, since it weakens the story hugely and doesn't otherwise benefit it in any way whatsoever?

And unless HHB is moved in the timeline to come just before LB, there's no way Rabadash and Rishda COULD be the same character, since canonically their lives are about 1,500 years apart (and unlike the Witches, neither of them is immortal or even slightly magical). No director could possibly be thick-headed enough to miss that point. So why the repeated concern that it could happen — seriously? 

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

Even with the Telmarines, maybe we could get an episode about Caspian X's birth, and see Miraz's bitterness and anger. We might even see him kill Caspian IX, his brother.

I'm not sure how well that would work with the way the story is plotted, since we're seeing it mainly from young Caspian's point of view. He's never really got along well with his uncle and aunt, but it's a significant part of the plot that he doesn't realise just how evil they are — and that his own life is in danger — until Doctor Cornelius urges him to flee:

"... Now that he has a son of his own he will want his own son to be the next King. You are in the way. He'll clear you out of the way."

"Is he really as bad as that?" said Caspian. "Would he really murder me?"

"He murdered your Father," said Doctor Cornelius.

That's the moment we too, as readers, first find that out, and I haven't forgotten the chill it gave me as a seven-year-old. Obviously a screen version doesn't need to follow the exact structure of the book (and there may be times when it suits a film better not to), but good writers know how to build up the intrigue and suspense without giving too much away too early. We could perhaps have a hint early on that Caspian IX's death was rather sudden and odd, but if we're actually shown it happening, that takes away the element of surprise and fear that young Caspian himself feels when he finds out. Plus seeing a character being murdered would almost certainly take this above a PG rating!!

And it wouldn't be no surprise if Rabadash had multiple sons. Any of them could have the title of "Tarkaan"

True — I don't think it's ever made clear where the title "Tarkaan" comes from and which families are granted it, and whether or not it signifies they're closely related to the royal family. We're first introduced to the title in HHB and simply told the stranger in the first chapter was "a Tarkaan or great lord", and I'm pretty sure we don't get any further details about the term and where it comes from. 

(I honestly never understood why they use it as the last word instead of the first word, but that can be another discussion).

Most likely to increase the sense of the "exotic", since in modern English we normally put titles before names. There are other languages that do it the other way around — name first, then title — just as there are languages / cultures where a person's surname is put before their given name. I'm sure I read somewhere that even in Old English (as in Anglo-Saxon English before the Norman invasion), it was normal to put the title "King" after the king's given name, not before. Even though the Calormenes apparently speak modern English, in the same way as other peoples in the Narnian world, a linguistic quirk like that helps to show their culture is different from the Narnians'.

I humbly pray filmmakers don't make the decision of making the two Calormenes Rabadash and Rishda into one! (and please no April Fool's joke!) Though I am pretty confidant it's not going to happen!

I still can't understand why there should be any fear of such a decision — as @col-klink said too, how could the filmmakers possibly do that unless they move the timing of HHB so that it's set between SC and LB? Which would make absolutely no sense plot-wise, as it would mean it can't be set during the time of the Pevensies' reign, which messes up a key element of the plot (Rabadash being desperate to marry Queen Susan, hence why he plans the invasion) and takes away the already-familiar characters that connect this story with the other ones we know. Why on earth would a screenwriter decide to do that, since it weakens the story hugely and doesn't otherwise benefit it in any way whatsoever?

And unless HHB is moved in the timeline to come just before LB, there's no way Rabadash and Rishda COULD be the same character, since canonically their lives are about 1,500 years apart (and unlike the Witches, neither of them is immortal or even slightly magical). No director could possibly be thick-headed enough to miss that point. So why the repeated concern that it could happen — seriously? 

Edited to add: I can think of another very good reason why no-one would try to amalgamate those two Calormenes, even if they did live in the same era — they're two totally different characters. Rabadash is a cowardly and foolish buffoon who at least implicitly believes in Tash, as his favourite war-cry is "The bolt of Tash falls from above." Rishda is a scheming manipulator who doesn't believe in Tash (or any other gods) and uses religion simply as a tool for controlling others through fear. He's a far more cunning and effective villain than Rabadash could ever hope to be.

So since those characters have absolutely nothing in common apart from the first letter of their names, why exactly should anyone worry that an adaptation will combine them??

Posted by: @col-klink

So are you worried that they will change the timeline so that The Horse and his Boy takes place between The Silver Chair and The Last Battle? (That's the only way that would make sense.) Because I really don't think you have to worry about that. The main reason I can see Netflix being worried about HHB (besides viewers being offended by the Calormenes) is that it only characters from previous Narnia stories it has are onscreen for a very short time.

I actually haven't thought of that! But if The Horse and His Boy got moved between The Silver Chair and The Last Battle, there would be no story! It wouldn't make sense anyways, given that a blind poet in The Silver Chair tells the story of The Horse and His Boy.

And when all the serious eating and drinking was over, a blind poet came forward and struck up the grand old tale of Prince Cor and Aravis and the horse Bree, which is called The Horse and His Boy and tells of an adventure that happened in Narnia and Calormen and the lands between, in the Golden Age when Peter was High King in Cair Paravel.

Though I suppose you could start The Horse and His Boy with where Eustace and Jill are at Cair Paravel in The Silver Chair, and had the blind poet narrate the story.

I think the semi-narrated story, in the context of the Friends of Narnia, is the best option for showing the different races, as well as presenting the stories as part of a whole. 

After Jill and Eustace get back from Narnia, and  their boarding school gets closed, Eustace spends some time with Edmund, perhaps goes to his school. Eustace tells him briefly about the search for the lost Prince, and Ed invites him to come and tell the others about it (in the next school holidays?)  He brings Jill, and this is where she meets all the Pevensies and also Polly (? at the Professor's house?)

This can be the first of a second pair of semi-narrated stories, along with HHB.  During this, Jill will mention a tale she heard in their one evening at Cair Paravel, about the talking horses and their riders who fled to Narnia.  She asks them more about it, and they go into the HHB story in full, the second of the pair. 

It will be explained briefly that all the humans are like us, but have chosen different paths and ways of life over many years.  Telmarines, Calormenes, and Archenlanders will be named, just to help Jill understand.  I can hear her saying, "Stop, I'm confused. Is Rilian a Calormene or an Archenlander? I thought he was a Narnian."

This is part of my current idea to have semi-narrated stories for MN,and LWW, then the merest introduction for PC and VDT, followed by semi-narrated SC and HHB. LB needs its own treatment, but the meeting of Friends would start it.

@coracle 

It almost made me think of a movie that I've watched some years ago, In The Heart of the Sea, where Herman Melville talked with one of the survivors of the Essex. It inspired Herman Melville to write Moby Dick.

So the idea Narnia being told backstory form is a thought. The Pevensies could even tell of their relations with Calormen during their time. Then they tell of when they returned to Narnia, the Telmarines had taken over. 

Then there is the concern how they're going to play out Susan no longer being a friend of Narnia, which is perhaps one of the most controversial topics in the series. I suppose they could have the seven Friends of Narnia trying to invite her for their meeting. Then she would say, "Oh, seriously? You're still thinking about those games we used to play when we children!" Then she somehow distances herself from the seven friends of Narnia.

It would possibly come around to that she would start to remember Narnia again. She might remember that she and Lucy watched Aslan died on the Stone Table and come back to life. Then she might remembered when she was Queen of Narnia, Prince Rabadash wanted to marry her (and other suitors did as well). Then she might remembered how she left her horn when they were hunting the stag, and how Caspian used it to call them back to Narnia. She have forgotten all about it by the time of The Last Battle. Then eventually, it would all come back to her.

@jasmine_tarkheena as long as it doesn't try to change Susan's story. She makes her choice, and it takes her along a path we don't wish her to go on. 

Posted by: @coracle

@jasmine_tarkheena as long as it doesn't try to change Susan's story. She makes her choice, and it takes her along a path we don't wish her to go on. 

Walden tried to change Susan's story in the trilogy (at least in Prince Caspian). It didn't make sense that she would be a warrior-queen if she was titled Queen Susan the Gentle! They better not repeat that mistake!

So I am 1 on 1 with not trying to change Susan's story. She makes her decision, and we hope that she would somehow make a better one!

By then she has become more like Miraz and the Lady of the Green Kirtle, in the aspect of, "Oh, everything you see here, this is all there is" or "It's all a children's story" "Oh, it's not real. All you see here is the real thing." I guess Rishda could kind of fall into that scenario too, given his disbelief in Tash. It's like he's fixated on what he can see. Anyhow, Susan fixated on what she can see. 

Could it be possible that she has forgotten about not only she was Queen of Narnia, but how Prince Rabadash had wanted to marry her? Could she have forgotten that she and her siblings helped Caspian bring back the old days after being under Telmarine rule?

So perhaps maybe Eustace or Jill could try to talk to Susan into joining the other friends of Narnia, then she'd say, "Oh, what memories you have! You're still thinking about those games we used to play when we were children!"

Posted by: @courtenay

 

True — I don't think it's ever made clear where the title "Tarkaan" comes from and which families are granted it, and whether or not it signifies they're closely related to the royal family. We're first introduced to the title in HHB and simply told the stranger in the first chapter was "a Tarkaan or great lord", and I'm pretty sure we don't get any further details about the term and where it comes from. 

Oh yeah. Though when Aravis tells of her ancestry-

“MY NAME,” SAID THE GIRL AT ONCE, “is Aravis Tarkheena and I am the only daughter of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Rishti Tarkaan, the son of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Ilsombreh Tisroc, the son of Ardeeb Tisroc

So it could imply that she did have some royal blood in her or she could have just try to be impressive.

Posted by: @courtenay

So since those characters have absolutely nothing in common apart from the first letter of their names, why exactly should anyone worry that an adaptation will combine them??

To clarify that, it's that I don't want both Calormenes to be portrayed by the same actor (No April Fools Joke! ) Even if they had limited budget, I still wouldn't want that. I don't think they're going to do that, though.

They should make new things instead of reinventing the old stuff! In talks of Telmarines and Calormenes, do not have the Telmarines come back as Calormenes! (And this should not be an April Fools Joke either!)

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

“MY NAME,” SAID THE GIRL AT ONCE, “is Aravis Tarkheena and I am the only daughter of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Rishti Tarkaan, the son of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Ilsombreh Tisroc, the son of Ardeeb Tisroc

So it could imply that she did have some royal blood in her or she could have just try to be impressive.

That's right, I'd forgotten the details of Aravis's list of ancestors. I very much doubt she's lying about her descent in order to be impressive — it sounds like she is definitely descended from the royal family, most likely from a younger son of a Tisroc (which is clearly a title only given to the king / emperor / sultan equivalent). We're just not given any explanation of how and to whom the titles of Tarkaan / Tarkheena are granted, whether they're given only to close relatives of the royal family or whether there are other ways to gain that status. None of that is really relevant to the stories, anyway — if C.S. Lewis had been J.R.R. Tolkien, he would almost certainly have given us full details, but he wasn't and he didn't!  

To clarify that, it's that I don't want both Calormenes to be portrayed by the same actor (No April Fools Joke! ) Even if they had limited budget, I still wouldn't want that. I don't think they're going to do that, though.

Oh right, now I understand, thanks. I very much doubt any future film-makers will do that, simply because — I hope — they won't be having to work within the severe budgetary constraints of the late 1980s / early '90s children's programming division of the BBC!!!  

(As I mentioned before, apart from Barbara Kellerman as the White Witch / Hag / Green Witch, the BBC also recycled Big Mick as the White Witch's servant / Trumpkin, Warwick Davis as Reepicheep / Glimfeather, and the guy who played Maugrim — I forget his name, if I ever knew it — as the Wer-Wolf in Prince Caspian. There may have been several other people who got reused in more minor roles as well. I've never gone through the cast lists, so I don't know for sure!)

Posted by: @courtenay

That's right, I'd forgotten the details of Aravis's list of ancestors. I very much doubt she's lying about her descent in order to be impressive — it sounds like she is definitely descended from the royal family, most likely from a younger son of a Tisroc (which is clearly a title only given to the king / emperor / sultan equivalent). We're just not given any explanation of how and to whom the titles of Tarkaan / Tarkheena are granted, whether they're given only to close relatives of the royal family or whether there are other ways to gain that status. None of that is really relevant to the stories, anyway — if C.S. Lewis had been J.R.R. Tolkien, he would almost certainly have given us full details, but he wasn't and he didn't!  

Maybe a Calormene spin-off series could explore on that subject.

Posted by: @courtenay

Oh right, now I understand, thanks. I very much doubt any future film-makers will do that, simply because — I hope — they won't be having to work within the severe budgetary constraints of the late 1980s / early '90s children's programming division of the BBC!!!  

I don't think that will happen! While I think that a small budget would be nice for a change, instead of a big Hollywood propaganda, I don't think I would want them to reuse actors for other roles like BBC did. It would be like Uncle Andrew coming back as Puddleglum or Mrs. Macready coming back as the school headmistress or Rabadash coming back as Rishda or Trumpkin coming back as Poggin or Aravis coming back as Gwendolen or Shasta coming back as Prince Caspian!

In talks about Calormenes and Telmarines, yes, they should be different races! Well, it could be worse! They might have the Telmarines and the Calormenes somehow join forces!  

I just talked about it in the Calormene casting thread, but wouldn’t be a great reveal that in a LB movie, Aravis and Emeth are not the only Calormenes in Aslan’s Country?

Caspian X isn’t the only Telmarine listed in Aslan’s Country; Lord Drinian and Lord Bern are also listed. So I wouldn’t see why Aravis and Emeth would be the only Calormenes there. 

It could even show that not all Calormenes liked living in the society of Calormen or under the Tisroc’s rule in HHB or even under Rishda’s rule in LB (I know he’s not the Tisroc but I think he was in the process of making himself ruler of Narnia). 

Anyhow, it would certainly be a surprise for the audiences that there are some other Calormenes in Aslan’s Country. 

Ok. An interesting point perhaps,.but I'm.not sure it's all that pertinent to the topic at hand. The question here was whether there were important thematic differences between the two major human societies.in Narnia that warranted keeping them as distinct cultures in any forthcoming adaptation, or whether they could both be reappropriated info a single combined antagonist for the series.

For what it's worth, I'm fairly happy that we have now answered that question and that there are in fact enough interesting thematic differences between the two cultures that are worthwhile exploring further in adaptation.

@icarus 

As it should. Not all Telmarines liked being under Miraz's rule in PC. Some Telmarines were actually happy that the old days are back (Gwendolen and the School Mistress are couple of examples). So there were probably some Calormenes who didn't liked being under the Tisroc's rule.

Anyhow, if an LB movie actually showed Gwendolen and the School mistress from PC in Aslan's Country, that could be a surprise for us, too. And who knows what other Calormenes could be there as well?

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I just talked about it in the Calormene casting thread, but wouldn’t be a great reveal that in a LB movie, Aravis and Emeth are not the only Calormenes in Aslan’s Country?

Wait. Isn't that how it was in the book?

...out of the shadow of the trees, racing up the hill for dear life, came thousands and by millions, came all kinds of creatures-Talking Beasts, Dwarfs, Satyrs, Fauns, Giants, Calormenes, men from Archenland, Monopods...