Posted by: @coracle

@geekicheep You said, "And we've seen how well trying to change Narnia worked for Disney..."
Ahem, as I have said several thousand times in the last 15 years, Disney did not make any Narnia movies. They were made by Walden Media, the first two distributed by Disney (who plastered their name etc all over it) and the third by Fox.

Apologies.  I'm not very up-to-date on the technicalities of copyright law, or whatever it is that decides on who's movie it is... but because Disney "plastered their name all over it" to IP noobs like me it's a Disney movie. 😀  Regardless, thank you for clarifying (apparently for the several-thousand-and-first time lol).

@geekicheep

Oh dear, I'm sorry if I seemed to be criticising you. I was trying to make fun of myself.  I honestly have been saying that ever since the first one was coming out.  It's what I'm known for saying on here. 

I suspect 90% of people think the three movies are all Disney.  

Posted by: @courtenay

Lewis was writing these stories at a time when portraying villains as the "exotic Other" in relation to your good guys was a pretty standard trope in literature and film

A thematic reason for not combining the Calormenes and the Telmarines is that C. S. Lewis clearly wanted the Telmarines to be the opposite of exotic to his original readers. They're supposed to be like really generically European with the Old Narnians having much more variety. 

 

Posted by: @coracle

Disney did not make any Narnia movies. They were made by Walden Media, the first two distributed by Disney (who plastered their name etc all over it) and the third by Fox.

I have read you say this, but I don't remember you citing any evidence. Why weren't the movies ever credited as "Walt Disney Pictures presents A Walden Media film" ala the Pixar movies? 

Posted by: @coracle

@geekicheep

Oh dear, I'm sorry if I seemed to be criticising you. I was trying to make fun of myself.  I honestly have been saying that ever since the first one was coming out.  It's what I'm known for saying on here. 

I suspect 90% of people think the three movies are all Disney.  

I kind of suspect the same, given that 20th Century Fox is now owned by Disney. Though I do call it the Walden trilogy.

Posted by: @col-klink

Why weren't the movies ever credited as "Walt Disney Pictures presents A Walden Media film" ala the Pixar movies?

That's actually a good question. I think that could be a discussion another thread, though.

Posted by: @col-klink

A thematic reason for not combining the Calormenes and the Telmarines is that C. S. Lewis clearly wanted the Telmarines to be the opposite of exotic to his original readers. They're supposed to be like really generically European with the Old Narnians having much more variety.

Ah yes. And of course, in The Last Battle, Poggin comments about living as outlaws, coming out of hiding at the Calormenes, and revived Narnia. He even comments that something similar happened during the time of King Miraz, when the Telmarines had control of Narnia.

 

 

@col-klink I remember the shock when it was announced that Disney would distribute the film.  We couldn't believe it.

Before that it was a Walden Media production, but I can't produce any documents - version 1 of Narniaweb probably had something.

Posted by: @coracle

@col-klink I remember the shock when it was announced that Disney would distribute the film.  We couldn't believe it.

I wonder it was because Walden thought that Disney was known to be a family-friendly company, and Narnia are children's stories. For a while, when The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe was still in production, I thought it would be by the same company who did Lord of the Rings. I'm sure any company would have distribute Narnia, but that could be another discussion.

Before that it was a Walden Media production, but I can't produce any documents - version 1 of Narniaweb probably had something.

I'm sure there is. But this is kind of getting off topic about Telmarines and Calormenes.

Oh, if I remember correctly, in Prince Caspian, it was spelled "Kalormen". Yes, it was spelled with a "K" instead of a "C." So I wonder how it got changed from a "K" to a "C."

 

@jasmine_tarkheena yes, let's get back on topic. ( I checked PC, and it is spelled with a C.) 

Posted by: @col-klink

A thematic reason for not combining the Calormenes and the Telmarines is that C. S. Lewis clearly wanted the Telmarines to be the opposite of exotic to his original readers. They're supposed to be like really generically European with the Old Narnians having much more variety. 

Another very good point. I wouldn't even think of the Telmarines as "generically European", for that matter — they're just generic tyrants and incredibly bland, probably intentionally so. Their basic function in the story is that they've stamped out all the magic and wonder that makes Narnia so different from our world, and haven't replaced it with anything even slightly appealing, let alone exciting. The Calormenes, centuries later in LB, use Talking Beasts as slaves; the Telmarines, in PC, have driven the Talking Beasts into hiding and most won't even acknowledge that they ever existed in the first place, let alone that they might exist still.

Also, the Calormenes have a religion, even if some, like Rishda, don't actually believe in what it teaches and they simply use it to manipulate others for personal gain; the Telmarines don't seem to have any kind of religion or any awareness of divinity at all, and don't want anyone to start believing in such things ("And there's no such person as Aslan"). They're two very different kinds of villainous powers and they play very different roles in the overall story of Narnia.

@courtenay 

And there could have been some other Calormenes, besides Rishda, that didn't believe in Tash that we don't know of. There could have been some who have been a devoted follower, like Emeth. I think that would be interesting how they play that out in the film or series adaption.

I know Prince Caspian has its fans on this board, but man, it's the worst plotted book of the Chronicles and a lot of the worldbuilding makes no sense. It reads like Lewis wrote it on the fly to answer fans' requests for another Narnia book without thinking it fully through.

I read PC last of all the Chronicles, so my perception may be colored by this, but I always thought of the Telmarines as a very warlike, practical people, like Spartans or Mongols, who looked down on the things that Narnians valued -- they were superstitious, not spiritually inclined. But this doesn't jibe with how they made over Narnia into a facsimile of Victorian England on the cusp of the Industrial Age.

The story would make more sense, movie-wise, if the pirates walk out of their South Pacific cave and into Narnia itself, lugging a few of their cannons and pistols, with Caspian I being their Captain. With their armament they'd easily conquer Narnia especially if it was in disarray at the time, and over time intermarry with the Narnian humans and exterminate the Narnian creatures. But then, there wouldn't be a Telmar, unless they renamed Narnia Telmar.

 

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

@courtenay 

And there could have been some other Calormenes, besides Rishda, that didn't believe in Tash that we don't know of. There could have been some who have been a devoted follower, like Emeth. I think that would be interesting how they play that out in the film or series adaption.

The Calormenes' religion is another area where I can see film-makers needing to tread very carefully. Lewis often gets accused of caricaturing Islam and Muslims in his portrayal of the Calormenes, although the similarities are only superficial. Again, if I were making an adaptation of the Chronicles and doing HHB and LB (the only two that feature the Calormenes in any major way), I would emphasise that the Calormenes have multiple gods (as we learn in HHB) — that's something completely different from Islam — and that none of those gods are very nice, so to speak; they're to be obeyed out of fear and blind belief, not out of love and direct knowledge. If it can be brought across that the Calormenes are the bad guys because of beliefs and actions that would make anyone the bad guys — rampant materialism, huge social inequality, the "might makes right" attitude, the rich and powerful oppressing the poor and weak, almost no rights for women (girls are forced into arranged marriages at a very young age, often with much older men, and have no say in the government as far as we know), slavery as a legal and accepted part of society, disdain for other cultures and the desire to conquer and rule all the surrounding countries... THOSE things should make clear to viewers why these people are the enemies of the Narnians. We can assume that the Calormene religion openly encourages all those oppressive and tyrannical attitudes and behaviours, although we really aren't given very much information about it. But so long as that contrast can be made without looking like it's an ugly caricature of a specific religion or culture in our world... that's difficult, but I would hope a really good and sensitive director and production team would be able to manage it without losing the general spirit of the original stories.

Back to the Telmarines, those observations about them being "generic" reminded me of what Narnia scholar Devin Brown pointed out in one of his books. If you look at Pauline Baynes' illustration of the combat between Edmund and Miraz in PC, the armoured Telmarines on the far side of the field all look virtually identical — in contrast to the huge diversity of the Narnian peoples and creatures in the foreground. There's no discrimination in Narnia when it's being ruled rightly (under the Pevensies, later under Caspian, and presumably in the beginning under Frank and Helen) — no evidence that certain creatures or peoples are treated as inferior or that anyone has the right to oppress or harm or denigrate anyone else. (And this in a fantasy land that has a far greater range of highly sentient beings than our world does!!)

Again, if an adaptation can bring out that contrast between Narnian society and all the enemies that try to conquer it and in some cases succeed — Jadis / the White Witch, the Telmarines, the Green Witch (who also practises slavery and oppression in her underground kingdom), the Calormenes — I can see that ticking just about everyone's boxes, while remaining true to the books! But (to bring this back to the original topic) I do think combining the Telmarines and Calormenes, let alone the Witches too, into one overarching "super-villain-power" would decrease the impact and make the whole Narnia saga feel less real and too stereotyped. So I really hope future directors won't do that.

Posted by: @courtenay

The Calormenes' religion is another area where I can see film-makers needing to tread very carefully. Lewis often gets accused of caricaturing Islam and Muslims in his portrayal of the Calormenes, although the similarities are only superficial. Again, if I were making an adaptation of the Chronicles and doing HHB and LB (the only two that feature the Calormenes in any major way), I would emphasise that the Calormenes have multiple gods (as we learn in HHB) — that's something completely different from Islam — and that none of those gods are very nice, so to speak; they're to be obeyed out of fear and blind belief, not out of love and direct knowledge. If it can be brought across that the Calormenes are the bad guys because of beliefs and actions that would make anyone the bad guys — rampant materialism, huge social inequality, the "might makes right" attitude, the rich and powerful oppressing the poor and weak, almost no rights for women (girls are forced into arranged marriages at a very young age, often with much older men, and have no say in the government as far as we know), slavery as a legal and accepted part of society, disdain for other cultures and the desire to conquer and rule all the surrounding countries... THOSE things should make clear to viewers why these people are the enemies of the Narnians. We can assume that the Calormene religion openly encourages all those oppressive and tyrannical attitudes and behaviours, although we really aren't given very much information about it. But so long as that contrast can be made without looking like it's an ugly caricature of a specific religion or culture in our world... that's difficult, but I would hope a really good and sensitive director and production team would be able to manage it without losing the general spirit of the original stories.

Point taken. It's also the given reason why Aravis is fleeing to Narnia. She is fleeing from an arranged marriage to Ahoshta (she is like 12 or 13 and he is like 50 or 60). I don't know if arranged marriages is still practiced by the time when The Last Battle takes place, but hey.

I would like a good and sensitive director as well. Though I would be careful about being too sensitive. I think is that key Calormene characters (the Tisroc, Prince Rabadash, Ahoshta, Aravis, Lasaraleen, Rishda, Emeth) has to be portrayed right.

Posted by: @courtenay

Back to the Telmarines, those observations about them being "generic" reminded me of what Narnia scholar Devin Brown pointed out in one of his books. If you look at Pauline Baynes' illustration of the combat between Edmund and Miraz in PC, the armoured Telmarines on the far side of the field all look virtually identical — in contrast to the huge diversity of the Narnian peoples and creatures in the foreground. There's no discrimination in Narnia when it's being ruled rightly (under the Pevensies, later under Caspian, and presumably in the beginning under Frank and Helen) — no evidence that certain creatures or peoples are treated as inferior or that anyone has the right to oppress or harm or denigrate anyone else. (And this in a fantasy land that has a far greater range of highly sentient beings than our world does!!)

I wonder if it was to be a series, Netflix could explore on Telmarine history. There could even been a whole episode about it.

Posted by: @courtenay

Again, if an adaptation can bring out that contrast between Narnian society and all the enemies that try to conquer it and in some cases succeed — Jadis / the White Witch, the Telmarines, the Green Witch (who also practises slavery and oppression in her underground kingdom), the Calormenes — I can see that ticking just about everyone's boxes, while remaining true to the books! But (to bring this back to the original topic) I do think combining the Telmarines and Calormenes, let alone the Witches too, into one overarching "super-villain-power" would decrease the impact and make the whole Narnia saga feel less real and too stereotyped. So I really hope future directors won't do that.

I am dreading the thought of combining the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle into one. BBC cast Barbara Kellerman as both the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle (I think it was for budgetary reasons, though). I even dread the thought of combining Rabadash and Rishda into one! (I've mentioned it multiple times, and I still stand by it!)

Now maybe there could be implications that Rabadash and Rishda are somehow related, like, "Oh, Rishda Tarkaan, you know, he's in direct descent from the Tisroc Rabadash the Peacemaker!" or whatever. I don't know.

Bringing back the old villain is what they do in comic book movies. The Dark Knight Trilogy brought back the Scarecrow both times (I don't know if it was because they've liked Cillian Murphy's performance as the Scarecrow so much). Narnia is not a superhero movie stereotype! It's time they make new things!

 

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I would like a good and sensitive director as well. Though I would be careful about being too sensitive. I think is that key Calormene characters (the Tisroc, Prince Rabadash, Ahoshta, Aravis, Lasaraleen, Rishda, Emeth) has to be portrayed right.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that!! "Portrayed right", for me at least, would mean keeping true to each character's nature and role in the original stories, even where they may decide to change a few things for the sake of the film (expanding someone's role a bit or giving a character more of a back story, for example — provided it's believable and consistent with what we already know of the character, I'm generally fine with that).

 

I am dreading the thought of combining the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle into one. BBC cast Barbara Kellerman as both the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle (I think it was for budgetary reasons, though).

Almost certainly for budgetary reasons (i.e. lack of budget). Barbara Kellerman also played the Hag in PC, who is clearly not the same person as the White Witch, as she wants to bring the White Witch back from the dead! (For that matter, her ally the Wer-Wolf was played by the same guy who played Maugrim, and Trumpkin was played by the guy who played the Witch's servant in LWW.) Having the same actress play the White Witch and the Green Witch therefore probably wasn't intended to imply that they were the same person — as far as I remember, there was nothing else in the BBC adaptation of SC to suggest they were supposed to be. It just added to the misconception.

I even dread the thought of combining Rabadash and Rishda into one! (I've mentioned it multiple times, and I still stand by it!)

I honestly cannot see how they could do that even if they wanted to, or indeed why they would try. Rabadash and Rishda are both mortals (unlike the Witches) and, going by Lewis's timeline, they live over 1500 years apart. Plus Rabadash is a member of the Calormene royal family, the son of the Tisroc and heir to the throne; Rishda is obviously a high-ranking nobleman and army general, but there's no suggestion that he's closely related to royalty. I don't see how any potential director would even get the vague notion that they could be the same person.

Anyway, for all this talk about the Calormenes, they actually only appear in two out of the seven books. So I would also hope any future directors don't exaggerate their role and make them into "THE" overarching antagonists of Narnia when in fact they only play a relatively small role in the saga overall!

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

. I even dread the thought of combining Rabadash and Rishda into one! (I've mentioned it multiple times, and I still stand by it!)

So are you worried that they will change the timeline so that The Horse and his Boy takes place between The Silver Chair and The Last Battle? (That's the only way that would make sense.) Because I really don't think you have to worry about that. The main reason I can see Netflix being worried about HHB (besides viewers being offended by the Calormenes) is that the only characters from previous Narnia stories it has are onscreen for a very short time.

Changing when it takes place in the timeline and jettisoning Edmund, Susan, Tumnus and Lucy would make it an even harder sell, not an easier one.