I think CS Lewis could have been more clear on the Calormene's origin. I have said that my main concern would be is how the Calormenes would be depicted (and I still stand by it!)

I don't know if Telmar was even a kingdom. Walden portrayed them as Spanish conquistadors, which kind of made sense, given that they were originally pirates from our world. Pirates have been known to be on the Mediterranean.

So how will Netflix differentiate Telmarines and Calormenes? That should be interesting.

@jasmine_tarkheena if you read the explanation at the end of Prince Caspian, and the timeline (available on here), it gives the fullest explanation about Telmarines.

@icarus interesting question, but I think it just as unwise to combine the two races as it is to identify the two Witches as the same person. 

Lewis created them as two distinct types, although both warlike and opposed to Aslan and Narnia. Calormenes oppose Aslan because they serve their own set of gods beliefs; Telmarines because they refuse to believe in anything supernatural. I can't see a way around this.

Your 'problem' over filming in chronological order can be dealt with by placing HHB later, as a story narrated by one of the Friends of Narnia. Don't forget, in PC the Pevensies hadn't heard of Calormenes as Lewis hadn't written them yet! Even Telmarines are new to them.

Posted by: @coracle

interesting question, but I think it just as unwise to combine the two races as it is to identify the two Witches as the same person. 

I would say that the critical distinction there though is that Aslan categorically destroys the White Witch at the end of LWW, and thus having her reappear in any form would be to imply that Aslan's power to defeat evil was less than total, whereas Aslan does not wipe out the Telmarines at the end of PC. In fact, he allows those that wish to stay in Narnia to do so. (Also there is presumably still an independent Kingdom of Telmar out to the West beyond the mountains)

Lewis created them as two distinct types, although both warlike and opposed to Aslan and Narnia. Calormenes oppose Aslan because they serve their own set of gods beliefs; Telmarines because they refuse to believe in anything supernatural. I can't see a way around this.

I do agree with this. I think this difference in their attitude to religion and other "supernatural" elements is the main thematic difference between the two kingdoms... At the moment though its the only distinction I can really think of.

Don't forget, in PC the Pevensies hadn't heard of Calormenes as Lewis hadn't written them yet! Even Telmarines are new to them.

Its been a while since I've read PC, but it's worth noting that in the Walden movie, Edmund at least seems to be already aware of the existence of Telmarines - he just expresses surprise that they would be in Narnia. Though that's the benefit of a screenwriter being able to add in some retroactive continuity to incorporate details from other books.

The main plot reason not to combine Telmar and Calormen is that at the end of Prince Caspian, Narnian culture and Telmarine culture become one and we still need the two countries to be enemies in The Last Battle. There are ways around this if the adapters really, really want them to make the change. (Some of the Telmarines could go back to Telmar at the end of Prince Caspian.) But, honestly, I'm not a fan of the idea because of what Coracle alluded to: it would make the world of Narnia less complex and interesting to have less variety of villains. Mind you, it's a pretty small and uncomplex fictional world as it is, so it's not horribly against the spirit of the books or anything, but I still don't like it. I know Icarus said he didn't want to get into the controversy around the Calormenes because there are other topics for that, but I can't resist pointing out that this would also make their portrayal more offensive if they're the only evil country in the whole world while Narnia, Archenland and the Lone Islands are basically good.

Posted by: @coracle

@jasmine_tarkheena if you read the explanation at the end of Prince Caspian, and the timeline (available on here), it gives the fullest explanation about Telmarines.

Yes, I have seen the Narnia timeline multiple times. It must have been created after the books were published. Pirates found a chasm in our world, and settled in Telmar. It was once inhabited by Calormenes. However, Aslan turned them into dumb beasts for their wicked behavior.

Posted by: @coracle

@icarus interesting question, but I think it just as unwise to combine the two races as it is to identify the two Witches as the same person. 

I don't know which would be the worse decision- combining the two witches or combining the two races. I'd think the Calormenes would have darker skin even than the Telmarines.

Posted by: @icarus

I do agree with this. I think this difference in their attitude to religion and other "supernatural" elements is the main thematic difference between the two kingdoms... At the moment though its the only distinction I can really think of.

I actually agree with this too. The upper class society of Calormen have been known to look down upon the lower class. I don't if it would be the same for the Telmarines. Telmar may have not been a kingdom. Caspian I lead an army of Telmarines to Narnia and conquered the land.

Posted by: @coracle

Lewis created them as two distinct types, although both warlike and opposed to Aslan and Narnia. Calormenes oppose Aslan because they serve their own set of gods beliefs; Telmarines because they refuse to believe in anything supernatural. I can't see a way around this.

And of course, as you might recall, Miraz and Rishda both try to remove the name of Aslan (Miraz saying it was all fairy tales and Rishda not believing in Tash). I think that should be interesting how they're going to pull both of those off. In the Walden, they've changed it from the Telmarines dismissing the old stories as fairy tales to Narnians being extinct). So it should be interesting how they would pull off Miraz dismissing the old stories as fairy tales and Rishda not believing in Tash.

Posted by icarus

Its been a while since I've read PC, but it's worth noting that in the Walden movie, Edmund at least seems to be already aware of the existence of Telmarines - he just expresses surprise that they would be in Narnia. Though that's the benefit of a screenwriter being able to add in some retroactive continuity to incorporate details from other books.

 

That wasn't a satisfactory workaround for me. What one pair of script-writers add to the story is not Canon.

Since they hadn't even been in a neighbouring country 1300 years earlier, the right question would be  "Who?", so Trumpkin could explain that they were another race who'd invaded a few hundred years ago. 

Posted by: @coracle

Don't forget, in PC the Pevensies hadn't heard of Calormenes as Lewis hadn't written them yet! Even Telmarines are new to them.

That's not entirely true, Although the actual word 'Calormenes' does not appear in the book. Edmund (I think) mentions the ambassadors coming from Calormen just after the Moles planted the orchard. 

I'm sceptical that netflix will ever do anything with the rights to Narnia, but if they ever do I wouldn't like such a change. The contrast between the true religion of the Narnans and the false beliefs of the Calormenes is such a huge theme in LB that such a change would take away too much of it's meaning. 

Hey @icarus - sorry if I'm repeating something that was already written here, but there are way too many responses to go over.  I understand where you're coming from - Narnia doesn't have a single "main villain".  I think fans have kind of wanted for there to be one.  That's why we have so much confusion around the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch (which I have on the brain cuz we've been talking BBC Silver Chair 😀 ).  If we absolutely must merge two different villains into one, I personally would rather have that than combining Telmar and Calormen.  I say that for two reasons:

• The ending of Prince Caspian.  If Telmar and Calormen were the same kingdom, it just doesn't make sense.  So when Aslan restores peace to Narnia, and many of the "Telormenes" decide to stay... then in LB it would be some kind of civil war.  The Telormenes would be attacking... some more of their own?  We would then have to rewrite the ending so all the humans either return to "Calormar" or choose the island in our world.
• Narnia's geography.  So off to the west, somewhere, you have Calormar.  Then, to the south, is Archenland, then the desert, then... Calormar?  I suppose if Calormen were an empire (which HHB kind of alludes to), and conquered Telmar,  then it could make a bit more sense... despite the desert splitting their territory in two... but even then, HHB would not have played out as it did.  The Telormenes could say forget Anvard and just move all their troops to Telmar, which they already control, and from there it would be much easier to get to Narnia.  And then of course it would also just pour fuel on the fire of the already controversial Calormenes...
• It would be easier to tie it all into one big narrative.  If we're breaking from canon - if the White Witch were not killed in LWW - if she survived by retreating north and eventually starting over in the Underworld - then what if Tash were a minion of hers?  Every other monster in Narnia seems to be either her willing servant or her slave.  And adding Tash to her ranks would put everyone from Harfang to Calormen on her side!  Then the Last Battle would be even more epic, with Narnia and Archenland surrounded by enemies on all sides.  The Lone Islands were hers too - adding another twist in VDT.  But most importantly, she was Narnia's original evil, and from a thematic/symbolism standpoint it makes sense too.  In our world, we Christians believe that Jesus will deal with Satan in our equivalent of the Last Battle - it's fitting that the same would happen in the world of Narnia.  That vs... a bunch of random dudes. 😀

But just to be clear... I am NOT recommending that they do this.  Do I wish Lewis had done something like that?  Yeah, kinda.  But that's not Narnia!  That's more like the story I'm writing.  Not all stories need a single antagonist, the "big bad" whose end signals the end of the story.  The randomness of the enemies is kind of what makes it so cool!  And we've seen how well trying to change Narnia worked for Disney... one geek's opininon. 😀

@hermit oh yes! I'd forgotten that line. But when that was written, nobody (not even Lewis) knew who the Calormenes were.  (now someone will dig up a reference from a letter or something, and tell me that's wrong too?)

Edit: I have now gone hunting and found not only the reference to the orchard being planted '...the very day before the ambassadors came from the King of Calormen...' in PC. Then I had to go looking for other internal links, and found a story that Jill and Eustace heard at Cair Paravel: "...the grand old tale of Prince Cor and Aravis and the horse Bree, which is called The Horse and his Boy and tells of an adventure that happened in Narnia and Calormen and the lands between, in the Golden Age when Peter was High King in Cair Paravel (I haven't time to tell it now, although it is well worth hearing)"
Yet another reason to read in publication order!!!

@geekicheep You said, "And we've seen how well trying to change Narnia worked for Disney..."
Ahem, as I have said several thousand times in the last 15 years, Disney did not make any Narnia movies. They were made by Walden Media, the first two distributed by Disney (who plastered their name etc all over it) and the third by Fox.

Posted by: @coracle

@geekicheep You said, "And we've seen how well trying to change Narnia worked for Disney..."
Ahem, as I have said several thousand times in the last 15 years, Disney did not make any Narnia movies. They were made by Walden Media, the first two distributed by Disney (who plastered their name etc all over it) and the third by Fox.

Any company could have distributed Narnia (Warner Brothers, Sony, MGM). Any of those could have made major changes. 

As talking about Telmarines and Calormenes, I don't know if the Telmarines would be as Spanish consquitors again, like they were in the Walden version. They could be given a different look, though. Then there's the Calormenes. It's my #1 fear is how the Calormenes would be depicted, and if they would be done right.

@jasmine_tarkheena I doubt that another production would use Mediterranean racial types for Telmarines. Pirates came from a variety of countries, including England. They looked good, but the accent issue was a problem.

There is discussion on the Calormenes appearance in another thread. This one is trying to avoid that topic.

Posted by: @coracle

@jasmine_tarkheena I doubt that another production would use Mediterranean racial types for Telmarines. Pirates came from a variety of countries, including England. They looked good, but the accent issue was a problem.

Even when Ben Barnes tried to fake a Spanish accent in Walden's Prince Caspian, while it's impressive, it kind of got to the point of being too distracting. Then he dropped it in Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

So I would suspect another production could give the Telmarines a different look. They would have to look different than Calormen, that's for sure. Not only that, but I'm sure Calormenes would be given an Indian accent, different than the Narnian English accent.

Posted by: @geekicheep

Not all stories need a single antagonist, the "big bad" whose end signals the end of the story. The randomness of the enemies is kind of what makes it so cool! And we've seen how well trying to change Narnia worked for Disney

Yes, not every story has a villain! Voyage of the Dawn Treader is a story where each character in is conflict within self.

Bringing back the old villain is what they do in superhero movies, and I think it gets overdone at times.

I really wouldn't want to see this happen either, for the same reasons several people have mentioned. In particular, I'd say Narnia doesn't need a single overarching enemy power or "supervillain", be it Jadis, the Calormenes, or anyone else. Lewis was of course basing his Narnia stories on Christian themes, but there's not a direct one-to-one relationship between characters / events in Narnia and characters / events in the Bible or in Christian history — except for Aslan himself, of course — which is why it's so completely wrong to categorise Narnia as "allegory". Jadis is not meant to be Satan, the Calormenes are not meant to be Muslims, and so on!

As for the side topic of how the Calormenes should be portrayed, if I were directing the next screen version of Narnia, I would be ultra-careful about this. Lewis was writing these stories at a time when portraying villains as the "exotic Other" in relation to your good guys was a pretty standard trope in literature and film, but that wouldn't be acceptable in the modern world, for very good and understandable reasons. I would most likely make sure there's a good variety of skin colours among the relatively few humans in Narnia — they didn't all originate in early-to-mid-20th-century England, after all! — AND also not make the Calormenes uniformly dark-skinned, even though that's a feature of the books. (While the books themselves are not nearly so "black and white" on these issues as a lot of critics seem to think, any modern adaptation of them definitely can't afford to look like it's implying "light skin = good, dark skin = bad", for pretty obvious reasons.)

Maybe the Calormenes could be a little darker on average than the Narnians — the Walden film of Prince Caspian obviously got away with making the Telmarines look and sound Spanish, after all — but I think overall it would need to be the way the Calormenes dress and act, rather than a blatant skin colour difference, that makes them distinguishable from the Narnians. After all, what makes them villains is their culture — materialistic, hierarchical, sexist, imperialist, war-mongering, and so on — not their colour! And while they ought to speak noticeably differently from the Narnians, giving them an Indian accent — or anything else that sounds like it's referencing some specific culture from our world — would be taken as straight-up racist. Again, probably better if it's their manner of speaking, the kinds of words and phrases they use, that distinguishes them, rather than a specific accent.

(Of course one problem with avoiding the light-skinned good guys / dark-skinned bad guys trope is that Shasta in HHB does need to look different from ordinary Calormenes, since that's how the Tarkaan in the first chapter recognises immediately that Shasta is not Arsheesh's son but one of the Northern "barbarians". So as I said, if the Calormenes are not uniformly dark-skinned but darker on average than the Narnians, Shasta would still stand out enough if he has extremely light skin and hair. I vote for making him ginger. )

I think the Calormenes were described as wearing robes and flowing turbans, and pointed shoes. It could possibly be like the Haradrim in Lord of the Rings.

You might recall in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, it was revealed that when the Telmarines took Narnia, they lost contact with the Lone Islands. So the Calormenes took over contact with the Lone Islands, and the slave trading was brought to the Lone Islands.