@col-klink I certainly wouldn't want to see someone leverage Narnia for an agenda - feminist or otherwise - which will inevitably happen in the process of making the movies.  But I am a book-only purist; I think we have not studied the source material very well. Making a movie always does violence to the original.  The only thing worse than a movie remake is obscurity.  That would be the real tragedy - and all too likely.  But any viewer with a brain will want to read the original. (I mean - I hope they will....right?!).

Exception - the movie remake of Moby Dick with Gregory Peck was legitimate art in its own right.  A masterpiece. Did no violence to Melville's original. 

I'm just really excited and think Greta's gonna do a really good job 😀

Posted by: @rose

I really don't like seeing implications that certain people can't be fans of Narnia because of any labels that they identify with, or that other people identify them with. I want people to read and enjoy these stories, regardless of where they come from or what they believe.

This actually resonates with me more than you might think. On another topic (I believe it's in the Talk About Narnia forum), I actually criticized another Narniawebber for saying that the reason certain celebrities are offended by Susan's depiction in The Last Battle is because those celebrities are "immoral" and that they're part of a "mob." That kind of talk struck me as inhospitable to Narnia fans who agree with the philosophies of those people and not in keeping with the spirit of Narniaweb's rules. 

Sorry that last paragraph sounded like I was bragging. But I do think it's a reasonable defense of myself. Remember, it was Skilletdude who brought up the gender politics again and Icarus to whom I responded. I don't particularly want this whole thread to be about feminism but apparently people are going to keep coming back to it, so I might as well state my thoughts. (Plus, since one of Gerwig's movies has "lady" in the title and another has "women," I don't she minds being defined by her gender.) 

And I feel like the idea that the kind of feminists who teach "women's studies" and write for academic papers are inclined to dislike the Narnia books is demonstrably true enough that I don't feel the need to apologize for the stereotype. As I said, the fact that feminists for whom Narnia resonates have to define themselves in opposition to the critical consensus speaks for itself. (They have my sympathies.) FWIW, I hope I didn't imply that disliking Narnia makes anyone a bad person though I admit I have implied that many of the critics are silly since they focus on minor aspects of the book and talk about them like they're the main theme. But that's true of a lot of criticism. 

FWIW, I actually gave what might be an example of Gerwig telling a story that differs from the standard feminist narrative. In her Little Women, she positively portrays the character of the elder Mr. Laurence, a wealthy older gentleman whose main plot function is to help the financially disadvantaged heroines with his money. You might expect a feminist storyteller to resent him for being "part of the system" but not so with Gerwig. I imagine it all comes back to her having a fond relationship with the original book. 

 

Posted by: @courtenay (except in the simplest sense of wanting a society where women and men have equal rights and women are not discriminated against in any way, which probably most people these days want, or so I would hope)

You would very much like to hope so. I personally have seen nothing in Greta Gerwig's works or quotes that suggest anything too far beyond this intellectual position anyway - certainly nothing close to the man-hating sociopath that many corners of the internet would paint her as.

"In high school, we took four years of theology, and ‘grace’ was explained to me as being ‘completely unexpected, holy, and deserved, but is something that can never be earned’ […] and there’s something deeply beautiful about that to me"- Greta Gerwig

Honestly, how many other major Hollywood directors can people name that ever really talk about Christianity in that way? Guillermo Del Toro (as a lapsed Catholic) is probably the only one who really springs to mind, though its not always in a positive light given his traumatic upbringing (still, he incorporates a lot of catholic imagery into his movies - Pinocchio was just beautiful in my opinion)

Either way, I definitely don't recall Andrew Adamson ever expressing any religious sentiments ever.

Overall, i really don't think we need to make Greta Gerwig's artistic position any more complex than that she likes to tell stories about childhood, growing up, and the transition into adulthood from the female perspective. To me, the Narnia stories have two of those 3 things in spades (and has plenty of strong female leads or co-leads from which to tell such stories - Lucy, Jill, Polly, Aravis) - the one thing i will concede to @Col-Klink on though is that the Narnia stories don't really have that inter-generational aspect, or the transition into adulthood, but for me 2 out of 3 is probably more than enough to see why Greta Gerwig would have an interest in this stories (particularly if she was raised at a Christian school as seems to be the case).

I'd also be fairly certain that like other directors who have a signature set of themes and ideas that run throughout their work, that they never mine the same material twice, and are always adding in new ideas and concepts into their portfolio. Therefore, l personally am intrigued to see what she does with the source material, given that so far she's done 3 films with very distinct individual voices all of their own.

 

Posted by: @icarus

I get the impression that one problem we are going to face as a forum going forward, is that it is perhaps impossible to talk about Greta Gerwig's art without also talking about feminism, and given that feminism is a highly contentious topic, I can see it becoming difficult issue to moderate, whilst still keeping the conversation productive with respect to Narnia.

Yeah, so I'm going to move away from that loaded topic...to another loaded topic.  

I don't believe the Narnia books are about grace that much. I would say that the characters of Edmund and Eustace experience grace in that they start out as bad people but are helped by the good characters anyway. But they're kind of exceptions. Most of the Narnian protagonists, like Digory, Lucy and Shasta, get rewarded for their good deeds. I don't think I'd describe their happy endings as "something that can never be earned." 

You could argue that mercy and forgiveness which are highly similar to grace (I feel like an obnoxious pedant for making the distinction but if I didn't, someone else would ) are big themes in Narnia. Six out of seven of the Narnia books have one or two of the protagonists apologizing to another or to multiple others and receiving forgiveness from them. You could say that Aslan shows mercy to Rabadash by not killing him but it's the punishment that everybody remembers, so I'm not sure I'd say that's an example of mercy being a big theme.

So I guess I'd say that Gerwig being interested in the idea of grace is promising but mostly just for her adapting The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, not Narnia on the whole. Fortunately, that may very well be the one she's going to adapt since it was the first one written and the most popular. (Impending Doom made an interesting point in another thread that Gerwig might want to pass over LWW because it's the obvious choice. I think that's something you said, Impending Doom. Sorry if I got it wrong. Honestly, that's probably how I'd feel if I were Gerwig) I would argue however that it's just as much an oversimplification/stereotype to say that because the Narnia books have Christian themes, they're all about grace as it is to say that being part of the feminist establishment means someone won't approve of Narnia. Still, the concepts of grace and forgiveness are similar enough that I understand why Gerwig being fascinated by the former equals a good sign.

To be honest, i wasn't picking out that quote specifically because it pertained to grace, but just generally that it pertains to religion (and also it was just the easiest one at hand in that NarniaWeb article!).

Posted by: @icarus

I personally have seen nothing in Greta Gerwig's works or quotes that suggest anything too far beyond this intellectual position anyway - certainly nothing close to the man-hating sociopath that many corners of the internet would paint her as.

ok - take LWW - make all the male parts female and vice versa - would that work? (of the 4 children)

Posted by: @lindsaydoering.

ok - take LWW - make all the male parts female and vice versa - would that work? (of the 4 children).

Sorry, I don't really get where you are going with that.

Would what work? And for who?

@icarus What I mean is: make Peter and Edmund female roles, make Lucy and Susan males roles - wouldn't this be the logical expression of male and female "equality" and presumably "non-discrimination"?

Would it work as a story?

And would it work for society?

Tough questions - but ones it seems logical to ask at this point.

Well yes, you could absolutely switch all those roles around if you really wanted to, and it would still work as a story - albeit making it a little thematically weird in places - but sure.

However I can't see that anyone would be all that interested in doing that - not least Greta Gerwig. Perhaps there are other stories where I would figure she'd be more interested in adapting if it were a gender swapped line-up (The Horse and Her Girl?) but not when it comes to a story like LWW with one of the most iconic female protagonists in all of children's literature.

All in all, Lewis made a very deliberate choice that in almost every story there is a gender balanced line-up of children, which is not nothing. I assume it's because he wanted his stories to feel accessible to boys and girls alike.

I don't think Greta is the kind of filmmaker who'd play around with things in that way personally. I feel she'll just focus on adding to the story, from the depth in which we explore certain characters to the themes that can be explored, without changing the bones of the story and its characters.

A lot of the praise given to Little Women was how she was able to create something both faithful and new, while bringing in a fresh and nuanced perspective, which I think will be the same with her Narnia adaptations. Probably not on the same level because the texts she's adapting are very different beasts and require different things when it comes to being shifted into a visual medium...

...which is why (just to touch on this again slightly) I think the expectation of something overtly feminist being woven in, isn't really considering the idea of the actual text we're adapting here. Of course an adaptation of Little Women is going delve deep into those themes. As for Barbie, even though not an adaptation, the themes Greta is exploring are inherent within the subject matter. I think Lady Bird was more loose on that front and was more focused on growing up and being a teenager, even when being told from the perspective of a young woman and her mother.

But again, I think Greta will be focused on what Narnia requires from adaptation, being as faithful as possible, while obviously making it something that has her specific stamp on it and exploring ways to make it feel fresh and consumable for everyone, from the fans to general audiences and to modern movie lovers, who are interested to see the story told from a fresh perspective. I also think Greta's name being involved will pique interest from fans of more independent cinema as well.

I'm probably sounding like a broken record but I really have a lot of faith.

@icarus

I agree 100% CSL made very deliberate choices about virtually every aspect of these books - gender included. 

You seem to agree that gender role reversal is the logical expression of gender "equality" and "non-discrimination".  (Reversing traditional gender roles appears to be part of the Barbie film - based on what I have read.)

But you seem to think that the main reason this would be bad for LWW is because Lucy (?) is iconic - and CSL wanted to appeal to girls?  I think there might be more to it than that.  

It's something we've been grappling with for 60+ years now as a society - I am not sure we're any closer to an answer. 

Posted by: @rilianix

I don't think Greta is the kind of filmmaker who'd play around with things in that way personally.

I assume you have seen the Barbie movie - I think the issue of reversing traditional gender roles does come up.  I have no idea how she will reinterpret Narnia. Plus - I think the movie will drive people to the books - so all the better -  I am very glad she is doing it. 

Posted by: @lindsaydoering

You seem to agree that gender role reversal is the logical expression of gender "equality" and "non-discrimination".  (Reversing traditional gender roles appears to be part of the Barbie film - based on what I have read.)

I'm not sure that I do agree with that, if only because I really am struggling to understand the point you are trying to make.

Apologies.

I guess my position is that the logical structure of the narrative within LWW has nothing to do with gender roles, and therefore the children are all theoretically interchangable with respect to whether they are boys or girls... but that for a director like Greta Gerwig who is interested in telling stories about growing up from a female perspective, I can't see any reason why she would want to change the genders in that particular story, given that Lucy is the main character already.

 

@lindsaydoering Without going into it too much, I myself wouldn't say the reversal of genders roles is the logical expression of gender equality and nondiscrimination, I would say it's more about fighting against the limitation of gender roles and the stereotypes that come with it. It's about having the choice of living a life you want regardless of gender and not feeling like you're being held back. I think that's what Barbie is doing. It's not about exploring why the gender roles should be reversed, but the pros and cons to each "extreme" and creating a middle ground, where both can feel included and equal. Plus, the exploration of reversed roles is just a staple of Barbie as a brand, and in terms of the brand from where we are now, was just a step towards where we want to be as a society - even when we still have a long way to go...

...but to bring this back to Narnia, this is why I say I think Greta will explore themes that are exclusively important to the stories of Narnia, because that's what she's done with all her films so far.

@icarus

The point is to reconcile a position that argues for "equality" of genders with a narrative that has male and female roles. If the genders are equal they should be interchangeable.  You say "no" because in the story a girl - Lucy - has the better role - therefore she should stay a girl. 

I think men and women are different - and not interchangeable in the story.  

As to Lucy as the main character - I can make an argument for each.  I am partial to Susan for a variety of reasons. 

Posted by: @rilianix

Greta will explore themes that are exclusively important to the stories of Narnia, because that's what she's done with all her films so far.

Thats a fair point - I'll take your word for it.  As far as the limitations of gender roles and stereotypes....  yeah - we've been working on that for a while.  This is not the first time its come up.