Posted by: @icarus

Really though, its the character of Jill Pole which puts this at the top of my list, as i think she just has one of the most interesting character journeys in the books, which i can see really appealing to Greta Gerwig's sensibilities.

I've actually read an article that condemned the character of Jill in The Silver Chair for being utterly incompetent and claimed this reflected Lewis's misogyny. I think that's a dumb critique. While Eustace is a more positive character than Jill in SC, he's not that much more positive and in the previous book, he started out less sympathetic than Jill. What I hear modern feminists say is that they want female leads who are normal people, sympathetic but not super idealized and relatable for the average woman and I think Jill fits that description to a T! But I'm not confident Gerwig will agree with me over the dumb critique. (It was written by David Colbert and can be found in the book, The Magical Worlds of Narnia: A Treasury of Myths and Legends. This isn't a strawman.) 

Posted by: @icarus

having seen how well Greta delivered on the whimsical elements of "Barbie" I think she would be more likely to lean heavily into the more absurdist moments of VDT like the Dufflepuds, rather the self-serious and grounded approach the Walden movies took, so that would be a huge plus for me.

I think Gerwig might be one of the few directors who would get the visual symbolism of the undragoning scene, and she wouldn't be afraid of episodic storytelling. Part of me would really like to see her choose The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. However, I must point out that she wouldn't really agree with the book's politics-which, I stress, are not really a central issue! But they're there. C. S. Lewis demonizes the Scrubb family for being "very up to date and advanced people" and I'm pretty sure that's how Gerwig sees herself, though I imagine she'd try to use a humbler description. I'm going to quote something a former Narniawebber wrote in this discussion forum a long time ago, so if it's too political, blame him, not me.  

what specific moment in VDT do you fear will be changed/twisted in the movie?

For me it is the scene with Caspian and Gumpus, where Gumpus protests, "have you no idea of progress?" in defense of having slaves to help commerce. "I have seen it in an egg," says Caspian in reply. "In Narnia we call it going bad."

Living in the world that we do, CS Lewis' very particular and purposeful dialogue can be switcherooed. After all, why shouldn't Gumpus be the one arguing for Big Bad Evil Tradition, and Caspian for Goodness In Progress? So, my fear is that Caspian will utter: "have you no idea of progress?" and Gumpus will grumble, because you know all those evil guys are all so entrenched in tradition, right?

Lewis intent in that particular scene is very very purposeful. He believed in the Natural Order of Things...and so slavery was bad from the beginning, and Tradition was the thing that upheld goodness, and progress was getting away from this and perverting it. In Narnia they call it 'going bad.'

A view, I admit, that is baffling at first if one has been raised on the usual characterizations of Tradition Vs. Progress.

In Gerwig's defense, she'd have the upper hand in an argument. I'm pretty sure most countries have started out considering slavery acceptable. Anti-slavery traditions are a pretty recent historic development. Still, I think it would be an interesting change of pace for movies in general to keep the philosophy behind Caspian's confrontation with Gumpas intact.

Posted by: @icarus

I think i've also mentioned before that i see this as being a story which is not only about childhood, but is also a classic of children's literature in-and-of-itself, which gets it extra points.

Have you ever explained how it's about childhood as opposed to just being a story where the main characters are children? I don't really get how childhood is a theme any more than in the other Narnia stories. 

Posted by: @col-klink

Posted by: @icarus

I think i've also mentioned before that i see this as being a story which is not only about childhood, but is also a classic of children's literature in-and-of-itself, which gets it extra points.

Have you ever explained how it's about childhood as opposed to just being a story where the main characters are children? I don't really get how childhood is a theme any more than in the other Narnia stories. 

As with the earlier conversation about whether gender is a relevant thematic element in LWW, the test is whether you can switch the genders around and it still make sense (which as i argued, in the case of LWW, i dont believe it makes any difference to the story). Conversely then, following a similar manner, the thing that makes LWW about childhood, and not just incidentally involving children, is that the nature of them being children is intrinsic to the plot (i.e. if you switched them out for adults, it wouldn't make any sense)

For example, the scene with the professor only works because the older children do not believe Lucy, precisely because she is a young child. The counter-argument then presented by the professor works narratively because it is coming from an adult.

The scene with Lucy entering the wardrobe only works because she is a child, and is approaching that moment of discovery through the awe and wonder of childhood, not the more "sensible" mindset of an adult, who would presumably not just wander off with a random faun they just met.

The scene with Father Christmas only works because they are children. Again, I believe its a very deliberate choice to include a critical staple of childhood like receiving gifts from Father Christmas. Something i can't see Greta Gerwig downplaying in the same way Andrew Adamson did.

Maybe that's a whole topic for another conversation, as i'm sure i could come up with a stronger case for the theme of Childhood in LWW given time. All in all though, yes, i would consider all of the books to be about childhood (not just incidentally involving children).

Posted by: @col-klink

I've actually read an article that condemned the character of Jill in The Silver Chair for being utterly incompetent

I dont really see that as being a problem for Greta Gerwig - after all, i felt the character of Lady Bird in the movie Lady Bird was kind of obnoxious for most of it - but that is literally the whole point of the story. She learns to grow and develop as the movie goes on.

IMO the ideal course of events would be Warner Brothers* becoming a co-producer on the movies in exchange for theatrical rights. 

That way, Netflix could feel a little more adventurous since they wouldn't be shouldering the entire budget, and it would allow the films to have a proper theatrical release and not just sink into the ever-expanding muck of "content" Netflix continues to dump out with no promotion. 

Also, and I know I've been beating this drum a long time, doing two movies makes me more certain than ever that adapting The Magician's Nephew first is the right way to go. 

If Netflix is smart, they'll adapt MN first.

1) Chronologically it's the first story in the series, and if they're going to be treating the book series as an overall cinematic/tv universe with spinoff potential, it makes sense to start there. 

2) It's the only book that could be adapted as a one-off, where you wouldn't be hampered by choosing specific actors that would have to come back or would have to be used as the basis for the younger actors when it comes time for them to be cast (like the Pevensies in HAHB). 

True, there's Aslan and Jadis, but both could be fairly easily recast. Voices for CGI characters get changed all the time, and Jadis' change of appearance could be handwaved away as her wicked magic affecting her visage. 

3) LWW is undoubtedly the most popular book in the series, in terms of general audiences at least. That's why it's important they don't adapt it first. I know this logic seems somewhat backwards but keep in mind, look at what happened with the Walden movies.

Because LWW made over $700 million as the first movie, every subsequent one seemed like a failure, even though PC and VOTDT actually had very consistent returns ($419 million and $415 million respectively). 

4) In addition to this, it also makes sense to adapt MN first as a kind of pilot and if the numbers aren't up to what Netflix are expecting they can not only reconfigure the elements of the franchise, but also bring out the big guns with LWW as the next adaptation.

In addition to this, I would add that since they previously seemed open to a mixture of movies AND shows, it might not be the worst idea in the world to have books like PC and TVOTDT as miniseries rather than movies. 

I think their structure is too episodic to fit into a movie structure (and I do like the Prince Caspian film, but its attempt to restructure the book into a three-act film screenplay is very messy). 

*(or some other studio, I only mention WB since they just did Barbie and have a good relationship with Gerwig)

I watched Barbie last night. I enjoyed it. A lot of the humour worked for me and it was a good theatre experience. The place was packed and there was plenty of audience reaction (in a good way). I also find it very difficult to judge as a film because I felt very much outside of its target audience.  It hasn't changed my feelings as Greta Gerwig as director much. I'm still cautiously optimistic... but moreso.

I'm more optimistic that Narnia will feel like a work of art and not a corporate product... seeing as Barbie is literally about a product you can buy but managed to be as inspired as it was. I am much more excited to see what she will do with Narnia visually because I thought everything in Barbieland looked amazing. I loved the use of matte paintings and actually how not real it looked. When I was a kid, I loved sets in older movies like Wizard of Oz that looked like you could walk into the screen and explore (if that makes sense) and this reminded me of that. I wouldn't complain if she took a more stylized approach to Narnia.

I am also more cautious. Barbie was heavy-handed in its theme, too heavy for my taste, and it does make me wonder what her approach to Narnia will be.  

But time will tell.

I think it will be interesting on how Greta Gerwig will be able to approach Narnia. I think the door is still wide open on what those two movies will be or what they will be starting with- LWW or MN.

I would be fine with either order for a movie- publication or chronological- as long as she can keep within the tone of the books and not diminish the Christian aspect without being too preachy. Hey, no one is perfect, I don't want to be too dismissive! But whichever order she decides to go in, I'm fine with either.

Posted by: @icarus

• 2. The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe - As mentioned before, i see LWW as being primarily Lucy's story. Yes Edmund perhaps has the stronger character arc, but by and large I feel that Lucy has the greatest agency in driving the plot forward, and most of the critical moments are centred on her point-of-view. I think i've also mentioned before that i see this as being a story which is not only about childhood, but is also a classic of children's literature in-and-of-itself, which gets it extra points. I also think this book has some of the strongest religious iconography in Aslan's sacrifice, which i can see resonating with Greta's Catholic upbringing. That pushes LWW into a close second behind SC for me.

Perhaps I should have also considered here that LWW is the only story in which the children actually grow up into adulthood. Therefore If we are going to consider the transition into adulthood and inter-generational reflections to be a key theme of Greta Gerwig's work, then that part of LWW would seem to be prime material for exploring such an idea.

Not only that, but the fact that they grow into adulthood and then revert back to childhood at the end just makes it even more of a fascinating plot device for her to explore these key themes and ideas.

Yes, I wouldn't want her to go overboard with the concept, and I'm not exactly expecting her to go full "Little Women" with contrasting timelines, but I would definitely expect the basic concept of the book's ending to pique her interest.

As I've said before, I just can't help but lean more towards LWW. Just always feels right.

As for the religious side of things, to be honest, while the novels themselves are not preachy, I feel the Christian aspect is incredibly inherent within the stories anyway, so it would be quite hard to diminish in my opinion. I think it's just a matter of whether you want to thematically expand it so that it feels even more rich. If that's the case then I can see Gerwig doing that in a way that feels natural and subtle, especially considering her Catholic background and, as she's stated, her consistent return to old story forms, even with her more modern approach to both.

On a completely different note, based on what I saw from Barbie and watching behind the scenes videos, I'd be interested to see how she handles the fantastical setting and more specifically the use of practical effects. Of course I feel you'd need both practical and computer generated effects to fully form the world of Narnia, especially now, but I can't help but feel she'll try and tackle more practical aspects where she can.

I think the word "reboot" is bit of a broad category. It's almost confusing at times. One could be that it starts over from the beginning or it could pick up from where the last film left off.

It's not likely that Greta Gerwig would pick up with The Silver Chair, though. I would think that she either wants to start over with The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe (the most logical way to start) or even start with The Magician's Nephew.

As with a "reboot", it would also have a totally different look and feel. The set would look different; even Cair Paravel would look different. I would be fine if Greta Gerwig wants Cair Paravel to look different in The Silver Chair (if she does that one) than it does in The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe and even in The Horse And His Boy. It was rebuilt between Prince Caspian and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

If she does the movies in chronological order, I think we could still watch them in publication order if we want to. There's an advantage to it: it would have LWW, which has been done multiple times, and along with it, MN and HHB, which neither ever been done before on screen.

As far as I understand it, a Narnia "reboot" could only mean starting the whole series again. It would make no sense for Netflix to pick up the "Walden continuity" and start with The Silver Chair, even though that seems to be what some fans are imagining. I was baffled that the recent Talking Beasts podcast spent so much time discussing this idea, which, quite frankly, would be absurd from a commercial as well as a logical standpoint.

SC isn't at all a good place to start reading or viewing the Narnia series for the first time, as one of the Talking Beasts presenters seemed to be suggesting. Eustace's talk of his adventures in another world, during the first chapter, doesn't have any real resonance if you're not familiar with VDT, and there's no satisfaction in seeing that he's now a (mostly!) much more decent human being if you haven't witnessed his dramatic character transformation in the previous book. His anguish on finding out who the elderly king is doesn't mean anything either if you don't know Caspian, and how Eustace and he became friends, from VDT — and Caspian's joking remark at his resurrection, about Eustace breaking his second-best sword, also falls flat. Plus, if Jill's encounter with Aslan in the second chapter is our first introduction to the Lion, he just comes across as this imposing, stern and really quite scary creature whom Jill isn't at all sure she can trust. If we know Aslan from the previous books, we know he can definitely be trusted and that he genuinely has Jill's best interests at heart, even though he needs to be firm with her right now. But without that, the opening of this story on its own doesn't give us much sense at all of who Aslan really is and how truly awesome he is.

Without all that background knowledge, there is so much in SC that just wouldn't work for first-time readers / viewers with no knowledge of the other stories. And for Netflix (or any studio) to start a new series of Narnia films, it has to begin with a story that will draw in total newcomers — of which there will be some! — as well as established fans.

Also, regarding the Walden films, while the first one, LWW, was a great commercial success and is still popular, the second one, PC, was less so, and then the Walden VDT was pretty much a failure overall. No new producer or director is going to want to pick up where a previous version left off when the previous version fizzled out pretty badly at the end. They'll want to create a fresh new look for a version of Narnia that is totally their own — especially if the same studio is planning to do all 7 books, which we know Netflix has the rights to.

So if Greta Gerwig has been commissioned to do the opening two films for Netflix's Narnia, it would only make sense for her to start with either of the two logical starting points for the series: MN followed by LWW, or LWW followed by either HHB or PC. (Or quite possibly LWW followed by MN — starting with the most familiar story and then a flashback to "how it all began".)

I'm not sure at this point whether I personally would prefer her to start with LWW or MN — there are advantages and disadvantages to both, as other discussions here have pointed out. LWW would make more sense if Gerwig really is determined always to do stories that are centred on female characters. But then, how do we know that's the only type of film she will ever do? Polly is definitely the secondary character in MN, but she still has a very big role and usually comes across as the more sensible and level-headed of the two child characters, as well as being an adventurous young girl in her own right. Digory's love for his mother and his desperate hope of finding a cure for her is probably the deepest and most emotionally wrenching "relationship" story in any of the Chronicles, which should appeal to any director who loves exploring these themes, regardless of the gender of the characters. Jadis as a super-scary female villain who destroyed her entire world rather than lose her rulership — very interesting psychology there. And then when she tempts Digory to take the apple for his mother instead of giving to Aslan... this is powerful stuff and something that a director like Gerwig might really enjoy exploring, even if — or maybe because? — it's not exactly the kind of story she's done before.

And as I keep saying, I'll wait until we see what she actually does with Narnia before I form any judgment, either way, as to whether or not she's a good pick for the task! But whichever book she adapts first, I'm 99% certain it's got to be either MN or LWW.

Posted by: @courtenay

As far as I understand it, a Narnia "reboot" could only mean starting the whole series again. It would make no sense for Netflix to pick up the "Walden continuity" and start with The Silver Chair, even though that seems to be what some fans are imagining. I was baffled that the recent Talking Beasts podcast spent so much time discussing this idea, which, quite frankly, would be absurd from a commercial as well as a logical standpoint.

Right. About ten years ago, it was announced that the Mark Gordon Company was going to pick up the Narnia franchise with The Silver Chair, and they even called it "a reboot" It raised a lot of confusion.

Posted by: @courtenay

Also, regarding the Walden films, while the first one, LWW, was a great commercial success and is still popular, the second one, PC, was less so, and then the Walden VDT was pretty much a failure overall. No new producer or director is going to want to pick up where a previous version left off when the previous version fizzled out pretty badly at the end. They'll want to create a fresh new look for a version of Narnia that is totally their own — especially if the same studio is planning to do all 7 books, which we know Netflix has the rights to.

LWW was a commercial success; PC had a lot of mixed reactions; VDT did not do so well enough for the franchise to keep going.

When The Silver Chair movie was in development by the Mark Gordon company, it was announced that it was going to be a start "of a brand new trilogy." There was a lot of confusion, because "trilogy" means three things, and there was only four books left. Some have speculated that the book that would have been left out was HHB.

Then of course, Netflix acquired the rights to all seven books. So we may get to see all seven get done.

Posted by: @courtenay

So if Greta Gerwig has been commissioned to do the opening two films for Netflix's Narnia, it would only make sense for her to start with either of the two logical starting points for the series: MN followed by LWW, or LWW followed by either HHB or PC. (Or quite possibly LWW followed by MN — starting with the most familiar story and then a flashback to "how it all began".)

Right, or even do LWW, HHB, and MN in that order. Hollywood has been known to do prequels (Batman Begins, the Star Wars prequel trilogy, even Indiana Jones had a prequel, and Oz the Great and Powerful is a prequel to the Wizard of Oz). So it would also be an option to do LWW and HHB as a pair and MN as a prequel.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

About ten years ago, it was announced that the Mark Gordon Company was going to pick up the Narnia franchise with The Silver Chair, and they even called it "a reboot" It raised a lot of confusion.

That made some sense at the time, because it wasn't too long after the release — and relative failure — of Walden's VDT in 2010. It and the previous ones were still fresh in everyone's memory and plenty of fans were eager to see the next story in the series get made into a film. The Mark Gordon Company could easily have carried on with the Walden continuity, which in any case would have been a better option than starting the whole series again and remaking the same films that had already been done within recent memory. But in a couple of years it'll be 20 years since the release of Walden's LWW, and so starting the whole saga afresh now looks like a much more sensible option than trying to revive the previous series that petered out.

It does make me wonder whether it's still a bit too soon after Walden's successful LWW for Netflix to try redoing the same story first. Gerwig made that throwaway comment recently about doing "some lions", which some have speculated meant she was referring to LWW, since that's the only one of the Chronicles that has "Lion" in its title. But then, it could easily be that she's already familiar with all or most of the Narnia books and that's why she's referring to them collectively as "some lions", because she knows who the recurring character is in all of them. We really can't tell until either she or some Netflix spokesperson gives us a definite answer.

That also makes me think, though — we haven't yet heard what Gerwig's own level of familiarity with the Chronicles is, have we? Did she read them, or have them read to her, as a child? It's quite likely. I'm sure one of the reports we've seen about her said that she was raised Unitarian Universalist — which, from what I know, is a movement that started with its roots in Christianity but has grown so nebulous and all-embracing as to essentially be religious humanism (rather like the Quakers), but it's a background that I'm quite sure wouldn't be averse to the Narnia books.

Lewis himself of course was not a universalist, but in his theology, Aslan / Christ is completely accepting of anyone who, on meeting Him after death, is able to recognise and love Him as the One who is truly "worthy of all honour", even if, like Emeth, they were taught to worship a different god during their earthly life. That in itself is a much more inclusive and hopeful theology than some would expect to find within Christianity, and it's probably one of the main factors that make the Narnia books so widely popular even among many people who don't consider themselves Christians. So if Gerwig grew up loving and appreciating the Chronicles from that perspective, it would make me much more hopeful about her ability to adapt them well. But we haven't heard yet how well she knows the books and what her thoughts on them are...

Posted by: @courtenay

 

So if Gerwig grew up loving and appreciating the Chronicles from that perspective, it would make me much more hopeful about her ability to adapt them well. But we haven't heard yet how well she knows the books and what her thoughts on them are.

@icarus I'm afraid I've only ever heard of (I think) two books in that whole list and haven't read any of them myself, so I've got no idea where that places her as a reader or a philosopher! It'd be interesting (and more pertinent) to find out what her top 10 favourite children's books are. I'm hoping she will at some stage let on what her interest in Narnia is and what her general thoughts are about the Chronicles.

I'm reasonably optimistic at this point. We'll probably end up with something unique and I agree with the sentiment that Greta could probably do the religious elements well. My biggest worry is that we'll get something like the third Harry Potter adaptation: a competently made film which cuts out memorable themes and doesn't quite nail the themes of the book.

Posted by: @courtenay

That made some sense at the time, because it wasn't too long after the release — and relative failure — of Walden's VDT in 2010. It and the previous ones were still fresh in everyone's memory and plenty of fans were eager to see the next story in the series get made into a film. The Mark Gordon Company could easily have carried on with the Walden continuity, which in any case would have been a better option than starting the whole series again and remaking the same films that had already been done within recent memory. But in a couple of years it'll be 20 years since the release of Walden's LWW, and so starting the whole saga afresh now looks like a much more sensible option than trying to revive the previous series that petered out.

Right, it did. Not only it will be 20 years in a couple of years since the Walden LWW was released, but Narnia being turned into a blockbuster franchise was announced in 2003. Narniaweb actually started 20 years ago.  

Sometimes it can be a struggle for a franchise to continue on. Even Narnia had a hard time to keep going, especially after Walden's VDT. It would make sense to start the whole new franchise a fresh.

Posted by: @courtenay

It does make me wonder whether it's still a bit too soon after Walden's successful LWW for Netflix to try redoing the same story first. Gerwig made that throwaway comment recently about doing "some lions", which some have speculated meant she was referring to LWW, since that's the only one of the Chronicles that has "Lion" in its title. But then, it could easily be that she's already familiar with all or most of the Narnia books and that's why she's referring to them collectively as "some lions", because she knows who the recurring character is in all of them. We really can't tell until either she or some Netflix spokesperson gives us a definite answer.

I was kind of wondering that myself. I even wonder if it would make sense to start with MN instead. LWW was the most successful in the Walden franchise, so that can be tricky to reboot. That's true of any hit blockbuster. It would be like there was an announcement of a remake of Jurassic Park, which came out 30 years ago. I think it will be a long time before anyone tries to remake Jurassic Park, since that the Steven Spielberg has been so popular. Anyhow, I think rebooting with LWW again will be really tricky. It has been done multiple times, so it would probably make sense to start with something different.

Posted by: @courtenay

Lewis himself of course was not a universalist, but in his theology, Aslan / Christ is completely accepting of anyone who, on meeting Him after death, is able to recognise and love Him as the One who is truly "worthy of all honour", even if, like Emeth, they were taught to worship a different god during their earthly life. That in itself is a much more inclusive and hopeful theology than some would expect to find within Christianity, and it's probably one of the main factors that make the Narnia books so widely popular even among many people who don't consider themselves Christians. So if Gerwig grew up loving and appreciating the Chronicles from that perspective, it would make me much more hopeful about her ability to adapt them well. But we haven't heard yet how well she knows the books and what her thoughts on them are...

Emeth is actually my favorite character in the series, and the scene where he meets with Aslan is actually my favorite scene. If Greta Gerwig does The Last Battle, I don't know if she'll want to keep it in or cut it out. I do hope she'll keep it in. If she does, I would be concern that she'll probably want to rush through it or tweaked it. Oh, I understand that some things in the books are going to have to require some changes to make it work for a new medium. Though I hope that the scene where Emeth meets with Aslan is 100% from the book. Yet, it may not happened that way.

It will be interesting to hear Greta Gerwig's thoughts on the series, if she actually read them or even had them read to her when she was a child.