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[Closed] "Don't worry! Our changes aren't as bad as what Lewis did!"

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sweeetlilgurlie
(@sweeetlilgurlie)
NarniaWeb Guru

The news story about the White Witch in VDT has begun to irk me and make me think about the Narnia movie franchise as a whole.

C.S. Lewis himself, flip-flopped on the origin of the White Witch. In the first book written [The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe], Jadis is said to be the descendant of Lilith (Adam’s first wife) and an ice giant (like a jotun, from Norse Mythology). Then in the prequel to that book, The Magician’s Nephew, which Tilda is dying for us to do next, C.S. Lewis shows that she came from another planet, Charn, in another dimension that you can only reach by going through the ‘world between world’ and the many pools there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Moore seems to be saying here that Lewis screwed up the continuity of his own novels and so the changes that they're making to the Narnia stories when adapting them are forgiveable.

Now, essentially, I'm curious: does the point that Moore presented make you conclude that Lewis messed up, and if so, does that fact make changes in the stories for adaptions forgiveable?

Translation: Because Lewis allegedly messed up his storyline, is it okay for the filmmakers to substantially change the books for the movie versions?

If this thread is out of place or restating earlier points, please close the thread. :)

"Let the music cast its spell,
give the atmosphere a chance.
Simply follow where I lead;
let me teach you how to dance."

Topic starter Posted : June 15, 2010 2:14 pm
decarus
(@decarus)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I don't understand why both things can't be true. Jadis is the descendant of Lilith (Adam’s first wife) and an ice giant and she came from another planet, Charn, in another dimension that you can only reach by going through the ‘world between world’ and the many pools there.

Clearly people have traveled between worlds, so i am not sure why both can't be true.

I agree though even if you think both can't be true then that doesn't excuse some of the major changes. We haven't seen VotDT yet though, so i will wait and see about the major changes.

There are no clouds in the sky. There is only the open sun and the Lord watches.

Posted : June 15, 2010 2:39 pm
spartan5
(@spartan5)
NarniaWeb Nut

CS Lewis was a brilliant scholar. If he wanted to "flip flop", let him. These are the folks that added a stupid romance between Caspian and Susan and kicked off the second film with a live birth scene. As far as I'm concerned, the filmmakers should be kept on a short leash.

Posted : June 15, 2010 3:05 pm
FriendofNarnia2
(@friendofnarnia2)
NarniaWeb Nut

Actually I think it make PERFECT since to say that the reason we never hear about Lilith is because somehow she got into the wood between the worlds and eventually ended up in Charn. That's actually kind of cool.

Check out "The Magician's Nephew" and "The Last Battle" trailers I created!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWtuk3Qafg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrPxboeZqrA

Posted : June 15, 2010 3:41 pm
Lady Galadriel
(@lady-galadriel)
NarniaWeb Junkie

First of all, Jadis was descended from an ice giant? I don't recall that. She was "one of the Jinn" and a descendant of Lilith -- at least when her origin is mentioned in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

I do think that Perry Moore may have been trying to say that considering that Lewis had a few of his own changes, the ones the filmmakers made may not even be that big.

If he is not saying that, however, then I think that he is saying one of these two things:

1. Lewis made changes, so that means we're entitled to being able to do it, too.
2. Lewis made changes, and we are trying to keep in the spirit of those changes that did not make it into the book.

For #1: I don't think there's any excuse.
For #2: But that is not the point! I don't want to see the story Lewis may have considered, I want to see the VODT that I know!

Posted : June 15, 2010 3:53 pm
ceppault
(@ceppault)
NarniaWeb Junkie

*breaks out considerable amounts of chocolate and sets it out ... has various soothing teas and cakes for those visiting and discussing the comments made by the production team for VDT*

I now believe various members of the production are messing with the devout followers of the movies.

“Safe?” said Mr. Beaver; “don’t you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.”

Posted : June 15, 2010 4:20 pm
Josh
 Josh
(@josh)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I don't think her appearance in VotDT will be a big deal.

I never thought of Jadis as being Lilith. I had never even heard of Lilith until earlier this school year. I don't believe the story about Adam and Lilith because it wasnt in the Bible, though I did find it an interesting read.

Winter Is Coming

Posted : June 15, 2010 4:24 pm
DamselJillPole
(@damseljillpole)
NarniaWeb Fanatic

I think what Perry is trying to get at is that CS Lewis isn't really precise on a few things, like making up two Swanwhites when there should be one. This right here with the WW is another confusing thing too. I agree that Lilith might have found her way into the wood between worlds or CS Lewis forgot what he originally wrote.

The filmmakers can turn this into a Lost thing you know.


Long Live King Caspian & Queen Liliandil Forever!
Jill+Tirian! Let there be Jilrian!

Posted : June 15, 2010 4:28 pm
Bookwyrm
(@bookwyrm)
NarniaWeb Guru

Um, Josh, no one is saying Jadis equals Lillith. Not sure why you think someone is. :-

Perry Moore needs to try rereading the series and exercising his imagination. Jadis is not descended from ice giants; I have no idea where he got this idea. Clearly Lillith must have traveled to the Wood and found her way to Charn and proceeded to have children with an inhabitant of the country and her children were the royal family. This would be obvious to anyone who isn't desperately searching for an excuse to justify wedging Jadis into every single one of the movies. What's got me even more upset than his little dig at Lewis is the line at the end of the article that indicates that the inclusion of Jadis in further movies is under consideration. To me that's essentially an admission that they are considering using Tilda for the LotGK.

Posted : June 15, 2010 5:04 pm
Josh
 Josh
(@josh)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I think the filmakers are just having a hard time letting go of Jadis. But they need to face it, SHE CAN'T BE IN EVERY MOVIE!!!

And LotGK is suppossed to be extremely beautiful and seductive. I'm not sure I'd put Tilda Swinton in that category.

Winter Is Coming

Posted : June 15, 2010 5:14 pm
ceppault
(@ceppault)
NarniaWeb Junkie

... Moore seems to be saying here that Lewis screwed up the continuity of his own novels and so the changes that they're making to the Narnia stories when adapting them are forgiveable.

I don't necessarily agree with Mr Moore's word choices there. Nor do I envy the movie-makers their jobs.

Artistic license is allowed, and we may or may not agree with those changes that come with Mr. Apted's vision.

Paul F. Ford, if memory serves, addresses "inconsistencies" in the Chronicles of Narnia in Companion to Narnia. My feeling about it? These folks can have some breathing room to work with to put it to film - this of course will get tomatoes thrown at me by at least two purists I know. ;))

“Safe?” said Mr. Beaver; “don’t you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.”

Posted : June 15, 2010 5:40 pm
Glumpuddle
(@gp)
News Poster, Podcast Producer

..... ...... ...... Where do I begin?

First off, according to Moore, Aslan says that evil like the Witch never truly dies. I do not recall this quote. But even if it's in there, Moore's argument still would not make sense. If I said "Racism never truly dies," would that mean that racists never die?

He also suggests that Lewis changed his mind on the Witch's origin. This may be the case, but it certainly doesn't have to be. Mr. Beaver could have been mistaken. It makes sense that the Narnians would not know the Witch's origin, but over the course of 100 years of winter, rumors and myths about her would spring up.

The "two origin stories" are not irreconcilable. The following is an example of two statements that are irreconcilable:

1. The Witch appears right where you think she would when you read the book —
2. The Witch appears in a surprising way you could never guess.

...Which is what Moore says.
The first statement contradicts itself. She doesn't appear in the book at all, so why would you "expect" her to appear anywhere? Then, the first statement is contradicted by the second... What is that supposed to mean? How can her appearance be exactly where one would expect, but be totally surprising in way you could "never guess"?

Even IF it's true that Lewis just changed his mind, Moore's logic still does not hold up. Just because the author of the book is allowed to make changes to characters he created.... that means that filmmakers are allowed to do the same thing 60 years later? Uh, how does that work exactly?

Oh, and........ ice giants?

8-}

The news has been getting weirder and weirder. I hope the trailer makes me feel better. Right now, my main feeling is that there is something very very strange going on with this movie.


YouTube.com/gpuddle | Twitter.com/glumpuddle

Posted : June 15, 2010 9:06 pm
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

First of all, Perry Moore is not a successful writer of children's stories, nor is he a university professor with an amazing knowledge of hundreds of years of literature in both English and other languages.

Second, I rather suspect this is an unofficial comment, in reply to a website that fields questions from its readers.

Third, given the serious misunderstanding of "The Wood Between the Worlds" and "The Deplorable Word", I'm not even sure that they understood what Perry was saying. Perhaps the website owners haven't read the books?

Fourth, the very idea that Jack Lewis forgot how he had described his evil protagonist from LWW when he reintroduced her in the Prequel MN a few years later, is laughable. The man had a copy of his own book to refer to, for goodness sake! And the editors at the publishing house would have checked this detail with him if they had been of any concern - but no, they too could see how two different descriptions of a person do not have to conflict.

Fifth, it's never bothered me that Jadis appears differently when she is found in Charn from when she is seen in Narnia in LWW.

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

Posted : June 15, 2010 10:34 pm
White Wizard
(@white-wizard)
NarniaWeb Regular

Mr. Moore, please don't go disrespecting the author. That is not the way of gaining the support of fans...

His statement is very silly, and it is quite foolish and unprofessional for him to be saying. An argument that makes little send and it is supported by incorrect evidence.

Posted : June 15, 2010 11:58 pm
Farsight1
(@farsight1)
NarniaWeb Regular

The lack of respect for the books displayed on the article is somewhat disturbing.

I had posted my objections to what Mr. Moore had said, but then I realized it's not worth the trouble and decided to edit this post. Why even bother? He probably doesn't care what any of us think.

Posted : June 16, 2010 3:50 am
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