I wonder if people who say they want characters expanded on in movies realize how short the movies are going to be. Probably two hours and fifteen minutes at the longest. And there are already so many scenes and characters in the books as they are. Expanding on minor characters would mean cutting major ones.

Posted by: @col-klink

I wonder if people who say they want characters expanded on in movies realize how short the movies are going to be. Probably two hours and fifteen minutes at the longest. And there are already so many scenes and characters in the books as they are. Expanding on minor characters would mean cutting major ones.

I'd be happy to see some of the minor characters (particularly Frank and Helen) expanded on at least a little, but this is what I'd be most concerned about too — that in expanding the stories of minor characters (and maybe inventing new characters entirely), they could too easily get off the track of the main plot, and leave out or cut down on some of the major characters or events that are far more important. Especially in the time constraints of a single film, as you say.

This is why I'd love to have each of the Chronicles made into a multi-episode series, like the BBC did (only with better special effects this time around!!) — more time to build up the story and really do it justice. That isn't looking likely at the moment, as we've only been told about Greta Gerwig doing "movies", but Netflix's original plans suggested they were going to make a combination of movies and TV-style episodic series, so there may still be a possibility of that happening with some of the stories. And even the BBC versions were limited to a maximum of 3 hours in total (6 x 30-minute episodes, which is how they were originally shown on TV), so a 2 1/2 hour movie wouldn't be that much shorter and could still fit in all the most important parts — well, one hopes. I'm happy to wait till we actually have a finished product available to watch before I judge whether or not it's the "right" approach or what else they should have done!  

@col-klink @courtenay

All really good points both of you. Though when I say "expand on", what I actually mean was that they could give us notion of what we already know about them and flesh out their character some way. It can actually be well done as long it doesn't come to the point of too distracting.

The Walden LWW film had a side subplot with the fox, who is actually one of the forest animals that has a Christmas celebration in the book. I don't think a new LWW movie would want to repeat that.

That's why I don't really think there would be any minor characters to expand on in LWW and SC that I could think of. Maybe not even in HHB, unless they could decide to do more with the Pevensies, since we hardly see them at all. Even in LB, they could do more with the Seven Friends of Narnia.

Well, with that said, we'll see what happens on what they decide to do.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

All really good points both of you. Though when I say "expand on", what I actually mean was that they could give us notion of what we already know about them and flesh out their character some way. It can actually be well done as long it doesn't come to the point of too distracting.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. I wouldn't like it to go to the point of introducing totally new subplots that end up side-tracking the main story and detracting from the amount of time given to the main characters and the "real" plot. That was an objection I had to the subplot with the fox in LWW, that it was too much of a distraction from the main story and didn't really add anything worthwhile to it, apart from the vague intrigue of wondering whose side the fox is really on. (But as we already have "switching sides" as a major theme in the original story — Tumnus is initially a servant of the White Witch and decides to go against her, risking his own life, once he realises that Lucy is now his friend and he can't bear to harm her, while of course Edmund sides with the Witch, betrays his own family, and has some very harsh lessons to learn before he's saved by Aslan — that just made the fox subplot even more unnecessary, I reckon.)

One thing I've had in mind for a while — I honestly can't remember if I've shared this elsewhere here, so my apologies if it's a repeat! — is that in a film version of MN, we could really do with one or two earlier scenes with Frank and Helen, just so that we get to know them a little and the first King and Queen of Narnia aren't these apparently random people pulled out of nowhere. We get a couple of little hints about their background from the narrative in the book, but not much that we're "shown" in actual scenes as such, only "told" here and there in the dialogue and by the narrator.

So to indulge myself a bit, I've been imagining a short scene they could have somewhere earlier in the film, on the morning of that fateful day when Frank gets hired to drive Jadis about the city. We could see him and Helen in their home, having a conversation as she gets him his breakfast before he sets out for his day's work, probably before it's even fully light outside. Enough detail in what we're shown, as well as in what they say, to make clear that they're a young couple who've moved to London from the country in the hopes of earning more money, but they're still poor, barely getting by, worrying about their future and desperately missing the countryside that they both grew up in and loved so dearly.

I actually imagine Frank, over that breakfast, reminiscing on how as a little boy on the farm, sometimes he'd sneak away first thing in the morning while it was still dark, run to the top of the hill and watch the sun coming up, everything showing fresh and new in the first light as if it had only just been created — "and you know, Nell, sometimes I'd imagine this was the first day of creation, that this whole world was new and I was the first man in it — like Adam, y' know — and it was all mine to explore, and I'd be King of it all..."

And the two of them laugh, and Helen says something like "Oh, Frank, you're such a dreamer!" — but lovingly, and we get the hint that this is one of the things she most loves in him and has a lot to do with why she married him — and to tease him a bit, she could add "Well, I hope if that really happened to you now, you'd at least want me there as your Queen, now wouldn't you?" "Oh yes, of course, dear!"... more laughs from them both as he gets his coat and kisses her goodbye and heads for the stable to get Strawberry ready, but there you go with both the character-building AND the foreshadowing, hmmm?   It would (to me) just be more satisfying as a film if we get to know them a little in this way and there's a clear hint that it's "meant to be" that they find themselves, later that same day, being asked to be King and Queen of a newly-created world!

I even imagine one detail that also isn't mentioned in the book, but it wouldn't hurt to have it: at some stage, probably as Frank is setting out, Helen looks down a little and puts a hand on her noticeably curved belly and adds something like "Of course, before much longer we'll have another mouth to feed, and I'm just not sure how we'll get by..." That to me just adds some extra poignancy to their situation. If she and Frank are already expecting their first baby (we're not told they are, but we're not told anything that would exclude the possibility!), and they're afraid they won't be able to cope financially, then that makes it even more of a blessing that they're called into Narnia to be its first rulers — so that their child, instead of being born into poverty in late Victorian London, will be born heir to the throne of a new, beautiful, magical kingdom. That just further ups the human interest factor and the sense that Aslan truly knew what he was doing when he chose them.

Hope nobody minds me rambling on like that, but I love Frank and Helen as characters and I wish we did get to know them a bit better in the book, so all that is now pretty much my "headcanon" for them and I would just love to see something like it included in a screen version of the story!  

@courtenay 

I actually kind of like your idea about Frank and Helen. Plus, that's actually one of the few romances that I see in Narnia, the other two being Cor and Aravis (though that's more like the C-plot) and Caspian and Ramandu's daughter.

I also even picture in my head for VDT, if they expand a little on with Ramandu's daughter and her interacting with Caspian. After Ramandu tells Caspian and his crew that they must sail to the Eastern End of the world and leave one member behind, Caspian has a talk with Ramandu's daughter, then a relationship blossoms. Then after Caspian and his crew returns from the Eastern End of the world, he invites Ramandu's daughter to come with him to Narnia.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

@courtenay 

I actually kind of like your idea about Frank and Helen. Plus, that's actually one of the few romances that I see in Narnia, the other two being Cor and Aravis (though that's more like the C-plot) and Caspian and Ramandu's daughter.

Yes, good point — as I said, it's a "human interest" factor and something for adult viewers to relate to, without it overtaking the main story or becoming inappropriate for children. 

I'd also love to see just hints of the romance beginning between Aravis and Shasta, though nothing too obvious till the very end, when we find out they do get married once they're old enough. For the main part of the story, just the gradually growing sense that, although they're always arguing and on the surface it seems they can barely stand each other, deeper down — although neither of them would admit it yet — they wouldn't actually want to be apart and they would each really feel it if something happened to the other...   (We do see a bit of that when Shasta rushes at the lion — Aslan, though they don't know it yet — who's attacking Aravis from behind. For that moment, he throws aside all his fears for the sake of trying to protect Aravis, almost without thinking and without really knowing why he's doing it.) 

I also even picture in my head for VDT, if they expand a little on with Ramandu's daughter and her interacting with Caspian. After Ramandu tells Caspian and his crew that they must sail to the Eastern End of the world and leave one member behind, Caspian has a talk with Ramandu's daughter, then a relationship blossoms. Then after Caspian and his crew returns from the Eastern End of the world, he invites Ramandu's daughter to come with him to Narnia.

 

Yes, I'd love to see poor old Ramandu's daughter get more air time as well. She's barely more than a trope in the books — the indescribably beautiful young woman who conveniently comes in as a love interest for Caspian and a partial reason for him not to go on to the very edge of the world, and as a mother for his only child in the next book, only for her to die tragically when bitten by the serpent (the Green Witch). She's given no real personality and we don't even know her name. (I gather "Lilliandil" in the Walden movie was suggested by Douglas Gresham himself, but I wouldn't count it as canonical — to me it sounds too much like a bad knock-off of one of Tolkien's Elvish names, the "-dil" suffix (as in Eärendil) tacked onto a slightly old-fashioned Earthly name. I suppose for me it doesn't help that my great-grandmother was called Lillian! ) 

Posted by: @courtenay

I'd also love to see just hints of the romance beginning between Aravis and Shasta, though nothing too obvious till the very end, when we find out they do get married once they're old enough. For the main part of the story, just the gradually growing sense that, although they're always arguing and on the surface it seems they can barely stand each other, deeper down — although neither of them would admit it yet — they wouldn't actually want to be apart and they would each really feel it if something happened to the other...   (We do see a bit of that when Shasta rushes at the lion — Aslan, though they don't know it yet — who's attacking Aravis from behind. For that moment, he throws aside all his fears for the sake of trying to protect Aravis, almost without thinking and without really knowing why he's doing it.) 

They do get into constant arguments. The book even states that they marry so they could argue some more and make up for it. So I would be interested how they would do that, though not make into the A-plot.

It almost makes me think of how the Anne of Green Gables series plays out the relationship between Anne and Gilbert, where they start as rivals then eventually they end up marry.

So if a Narnia film could do something with Cor/Shasta and Aravis without being too obvious and seeing them get into arguments, it would count for something

 

Yes, I'd love to see poor old Ramandu's daughter get more air time as well. She's barely more than a trope in the books — the indescribably beautiful young woman who conveniently comes in as a love interest for Caspian and a partial reason for him not to go on to the very edge of the world, and as a mother for his only child in the next book, only for her to die tragically when bitten by the serpent (the Green Witch). She's given no real personality and we don't even know her name. (I gather "Lilliandil" in the Walden movie was suggested by Douglas Gresham himself, but I wouldn't count it as canonical — to me it sounds too much like a bad knock-off of one of Tolkien's Elvish names, the "-dil" suffix (as in Eärendil) tacked onto a slightly old-fashioned Earthly name. I suppose for me it doesn't help that my great-grandmother was called Lillian! ) 

I could totally see that. I almost imagine her personality of a sweet nature, her faith in Aslan, her submissive to her husband and the motherly bond she has with her son.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

They do get into constant arguments. The book even states that they marry so they could argue some more and make up for it.

I really think that was Lewis's sense of humour coming through there, with an ironic view of their marriage being so that they could "go on doing it [arguing and making up] more conveniently" — I don't think he was seriously suggesting that that's what marriage is meant to be about. I remember clearly that even as a 7-year-old first-time reader of that book, with no aspirations towards romance myself at that age, I totally got the joke there and cracked up laughing, as I still do when I read it now!

(And although Lewis was still unmarried himself at the time he finished writing HHB, it wasn't many more years before he met and eventually married a woman who was by all accounts brilliantly smart and feisty and not at all submissive — he unabashedly considered her his intellectual equal. So I'm sure they had some interesting arguments in the few years they had together before Joy's death, but at the same time it's clear that they loved each other immensely and their relationship was a great blessing for both of them. I imagine Shasta and Aravis were much the same!)

A few characters I'd love to see expanded are Gwendolen, Ramandu's Daughter, and Emeth.

I missed not seeing Gwendolen in both Prince Caspian BBC and Walden adaptations. I know fanfiction is forbidden on this site, but I did have an idea of expanding her character by having Gwen related to Caspian's nurse once. I wont go any further. But just an idea. She is a brilliant character to study and expand on.

Ramandu's daughter was perfectly adapted in the BBC and Gabrielle Anwar is stunning. The little moment between her and Caspian's glance to each other when Ramandu explained about leaving a member of their voyage behind was chefs kiss. Little moments like that shows the beginning of true love in the making. The Walden version of RD I didn't too much care for. Yes they mention Blue Star multiple times but all Liliandil did was give the same info Coriakin previously said. They made her seem useless to the story and plot. Something I hope Netflix gets right is that she isn't a star but has the blood of the stars flowing in her veins, and please no cheesy dialogue. I believe Laura Brent did her job well respectively in the role, but her part was shorter than it was in the book. Please for the love of Aslan expand more on her. She is Caspian's Queen after all.

Emeth, I would love to see him involved more possibly joining on King Tirian's side before the end of Narnia. I know I'm crossing into fanfic territory again. Sorry, not meaning to, just my personal opinion. He is a favorite of mine too and I would love to see an expansion on his and Lucy's conversation that I somewhat remember in LB. I think they really hit it off.

@daughterofthestar 

Gwendolen would be idea. I also thought of the Nurse, who was perhaps a mother figure to Caspian. We could see her tell him the stories of the old days of Narnia. It could also be a touching scene where Caspian and his nurse are reunited. Both BBC and Walden cut her out so I would happy if a new PC film could include her.

You've figured out that Emeth is my favorite character in the series!  I would also like to see his character play out a bit. I actually haven't thought of him joining on King Tirian's side before the end of Narnia. Though I don't know if that would be necessary. I kind of picture in my head when he learns of Rishda not believing in Tash, he is horrified. I could almost see him feeling sympathetic in a way in how his own people the Calormenes are treating the Narnians.

Posted by: @daughterofthestar

I missed not seeing Gwendolen in both Prince Caspian BBC and Walden adaptations. I know fanfiction is forbidden on this site, but I did have an idea of expanding her character by having Gwen related to Caspian's nurse once. I wont go any further. But just an idea. She is a brilliant character to study and expand on.

Part of me really loves that idea! It seems like a great way to simplify the climax while maintaining as many memorable characters as possible from it. However, another part of me feels like you couldn't do it without losing something about Gwendolen that's important. 

The obvious thing to do would be to combine her character with the Nurse's niece and that would mean she'd have to be sad about her aunt possibly dying. What I love about Gwendolen in the book is how she's so happy to join Aslan and company while all her peers are running away, screaming. We couldn't really have that if she's mourning over a close relative. Even showing her being bored by her history lesson under those circumstances could be awkward. (Not that she would be super interested in school, but she'd be thinking more about her aunt, less about her own pleasure.)

Still, the idea intrigues me enough that I think there ought to be a way to make it work. Not so sure about the Emeth thing. If he were helping the Narnians, why would he be so surprised by Aslan welcoming him to the real Narnia?

Posted by: @col-klink

Part of me really loves that idea! It seems like a great way to simplify the climax while maintaining as many memorable characters as possible from it. However, another part of me feels like you couldn't do it without losing something about Gwendolen that's important. 

The obvious thing to do would be to combine her character with the Nurse's niece and that would mean she'd have to be sad about her aunt possibly dying. What I love about Gwendolen in the book is how she's so happy to join Aslan and company while all her peers are running away, screaming. We couldn't really have that if she's mourning over a close relative. Even showing her being bored by her history lesson under those circumstances could be awkward. (Not that she would be super interested in school, but she'd be thinking more about her aunt, less about her own pleasure.) Still, the idea intrigues me enough that I think there ought to be a way to make it work.

That might be idea. Gwendolen could even be close friends with the nurse's niece.

Posted by: @col-klink

Not so sure about the Emeth thing. If he were helping the Narnians, why would he be so surprised by Aslan welcoming him to the real Narnia?

That's what I was thinking. It wouldn't make any sense to have Emeth help the Narnians. I think it would be idea if he was starting to feel conflicted when he, along with the other Calormenes, arrive in Narnia.

 

Posted by: @col-klink

Not so sure about the Emeth thing. If he were helping the Narnians, why would he be so surprised by Aslan welcoming him to the real Narnia?

That's what I was thinking. It wouldn't make any sense to have Emeth help the Narnians. I think it would be idea if he was starting to feel conflicted when he, along with the other Calormenes, arrive in Narnia.

That does make sense. I would still love to see some scenes involving Emeth more in LB. He’s a favorite too.  

Isn't this going to be an interesting discussion, about what characters that could be expanded on- give us notion of what we already know and somehow have it flesh out?

In HHB, they could possibly do more with the Pevensies and in LB, they could possibly do more with the Seven Friends of Narnia.