You know, a lot of the decisions Tirian and Jewel made were ones where it's impossible to say what was the right thing to do. If they hadn't immediately gone to Lantern Waste without backup, the criticism would be that they weren't acting quickly enough to save any dryads. If they hadn't turned themselves over to the Calormenes, the criticism would be that they weren't taking responsibility for killing those unarmed men without a warning of warning. Sheesh, you could even argue that if they hadn't done that dreadful deed, that would have been seen as a lack of proper concern for the horse those Calormenes were abusing. It feels like there weren't a lot of obvious options.

I agree with @col-klink, there weren't that many, if any, options that wouldn't have had negative repercussions. I have never considered that Tirian was a neglectful/irresponsible king (not saying he wasn't, it just never crossed my mind before) but I have a feeling the state of affairs in Narnia in The Last Battle were a long time coming, as are most world events with widespread consequences, and while Tirian may have contributed to the downfall of Narnia he was by no means solely responsible.

Posted by: @courtenay

Yet this fatalistic sort of doom mentality hangs over them and spurs their actions

But this mentality isn't restricted to the King and the Unicorn - it seems to be the mentality of all the Narnians at that time. They are quite willing to believe the Ape, even though they ought to have recognised the truth, just because of everything they should have known about Aslan and about his history of protecting Narnia.

I think their mentality, more than that of the King, is why I agree with you that this book "is SO darn depressing, most of the way through".

@col-klink and @narnian-in-the-north, I agree there don't seem to have been many good options available to Tirian and it's hard to say whether he could have done anything that wouldn't have had negative consequences. And there does also seem to be a sense that the state of affairs in Narnia has built up gradually, and as @varna says too, that doom-and-gloom mentality seems to have overtaken the other Narnians, most of whom seem to believe Shift and the Calormenes, however despairing they may be about it.

And that's what keeps bugging me about this book, now that I'm revisiting it for the first time in many years. How did so many Narnians get so easily fooled about the true nature of Aslan? Even if the last time he visited Narnia personally was during the events of The Silver Chair, that's only 199 years before the events of The Last Battle (going by Lewis's later timeline, which I now see has yet another discrepancy... Tirian tells Jill and Eustace in LB that Rilian "has been dead over 200 years", but the timeline gives Narnian year 2356 as the year of the events in SC and 2555 as the year of the events of LB, which is under 200 years). That's shorter than the lifespans of at least some Narnian creatures, as we can infer from what Roonwit says. And even in the 1,303 years between the events of LWW and PC, not everyone forgets Aslan, even over the 305 of those years that Narnia is under Telmarine rule and the Talking Beasts and other native Narnian peoples are in hiding. Trufflehunter tells us repeatedly that "we don't change, we Beasts... We don't forget."

Yet virtually everyone in Narnia, by Tirian's time, is duped by an "Aslan" who doesn't show himself to them except in very dim light, doesn't speak to them, uses an Ape as a mouthpiece, and apparently orders Dryads to be slaughtered and Talking Beasts to be enslaved and Calormenes — Narnia's ancient enemies, who worship a god utterly unlike Aslan and who have wanted to conquer Narnia by force for centuries — to carry out all these plans. Of course we as readers already know who and what this "Aslan" is, thanks to the first chapter. But even if we didn't, everything about him is so utterly contrary to everything we know about Aslan from the earlier books in the series. It makes one wonder — do Narnians in general not learn anything much about Aslan during their lifetimes, whether or not they ever see him? Do no Narnian scholars record and pass down the accounts of him and his deeds? Do all these poor creatures really have no idea whatsoever of what he's like?

And back to Tirian and his decisions — it's understandable that he and Jewel rush to Lantern Waste after the Dryad comes to them and dies in front of them as her tree is cut down. But that's right where Lewis tells us "how foolish it was for two of them to go on alone", and emphasises that it's their anger that keeps them from thinking more clearly about what they're doing. What if they'd thought more deeply about what Roonwit had told them — that Aslan IS NOT in Narnia — and realised there must be some terrible and dangerous treachery going on, and that, even if it means more Dryads will die in the meantime, they had better get hold of reinforcements before they go and investigate who's behind this?

Or even after they've committed their double murder and escaped — at which point they could have fled back to Cair Paravel and called a proper council of the King's supporters — well, I understand their crushing remorse and self-disgust. But why does Tirian then decide that the only thing to do is to give himself up to the Calormenes??? He's already seen that these people are masterminding the slaughter of the Dryads and the enslavement of the Beasts. Does he really think they're working for Aslan? Of course his object there is to ask them to bring him before Aslan. But he, as THE KING, has just handed himself straight over to his enemies as an abject captive. (What on earth would his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather [I think I have that right!], Caspian X, think of him deserting his post and his duties to ALL Narnians like that??)

Which is why, later in that chapter, when Tirian hears Shift's words and finally (!!!) realises "Ape... you lie", he's not able to keep on making the speech that Lewis tells us might have ended the rule of the Ape and broken the mesmerism that seems to have taken over nearly all the Beasts (except the poor Lamb) — because he's on his own, as a captive of the Calormenes, and they punch him in the mouth and throw him to the ground and tie him up before he can say any more.

I'm toying with what I suspect will be an Unpopular Narnia Opinion here, but honestly — the more I go over Tirian's actions in the first several chapters of LB, the less noble and heroic he comes across. I wouldn't say he is solely responsible for the doom that falls on Narnia; that's totally unfair. And of course, when all is over and he meets Aslan face to face in Aslan's own country, the Lion welcomes him unconditionally as the one who "stood firm at the darkest hour." (I may not have all these quotes word-for-word right — I'm away from home tonight and don't have the book with me.) 

But I'm going to put it out there: I'm coming to the conclusion that Tirian, far from being a wonderful and courageous hero, was a rash and reckless King who let anger and fear and despair cloud his better judgment; who totally deserted his higher duties to his subjects; who behaved stupidly and irresponsibly in multiple ways and did a lot to precipitate, or certainly to worsen, the disaster that finally overran and ended Narnia. And I am almost convinced that if he'd behaved more wisely — if he'd taken Roonwit seriously, if he'd asked for help from other older and wiser Narnians, if he'd put his responsibilities as King before his own emotional reactions, if he'd stopped and thought about what he obviously does know about the true nature of Aslan — Narnia might, just might, not have been destroyed after only 2,555 years of existence.

There, I've said it. Anyone up for a (friendly!) debate here??  

@courtenay I think you do have some valid points and I remember not being impressed with Tirian as a child/teen (maybe my first impression was the correct one!) but I keep thinking of one element of the series that has endeared them to me throughout my reading of them and that is none of the characters, besides Aslan, are perfect, they make mistakes, have flashes of temper, give into temptation, quarrel, complain, forget the signs, etc., and yet they still try to follow Aslan to the best of their ability, and as a Christian who is by no means perfect I find that encouraging in my very faulty attempts to live according to Christ's teaching. I think The Last Battle is probably the most Christian of the seven books and really has to be read in conjunction with the Book of Revelation.

In regards to how quickly Narnians seemed to forget Aslan I think Lewis was probably writing from an observation of how quickly society can change in our world. Perhaps the Narnians in the relative comfort and ease of the reigns of Tirian's predecessors had less reason to remember and relate the stories of Aslan and the Friends of Narnia than they had during the murderous reigns of the Telmarine kings.

It's kind of hard to say though I think the end of Narnia would have still come eventually. My pastor has been doing a sermon series for the year about Living In The Last Days, so it's almost something that's unavoidable.

So even if the end of Narnia didn't happened in The Last Battle, it still would have come to an end at some point, given to what Jewel says to Jill, "All worlds draw to an end, except for Aslan's own Country."

We could defend the talking beasts by pointing out that Narnia is a magical world and from their point of view, Puzzle-in-a-lion's-skin could be a disguise Aslan is putting on before revealing his true, terrifying form. It's not much of a defense though since the book implies that's what they believe lions actually look like. 

"Do you think it really is Aslan?" asked the King.
"Oh yes, yes," said the Rabbit. "He came out of the stable last night. We all saw him."
"What was he like?" said the King.
"Like a terrible, great Lion, to be sure," said one of the Mice.

I know the text suggests that Tirian could have done things differently, but I think Aslan intended for the world to end here. All the events feel like a point of no return (the Dryads all being slaughtered, the military disaster, etc.) I just don't see how Tirian could have beaten off the military invasion even with a head start.  Back in Prince Caspian, Aslan establishes that Narnia will not last any longer than Caspian and his lineage stays in power. "You and your heirs while your race lasts." It doesn't seem like there's any wiggle room for things to fall apart but be restored again later.

There were only seven Narnia books so it seems appropriate that the end of the old Narnia would come at the conclusion of .The Last Battle.  There would have been no reason for it to continue since it was replaced by a more real Narnia.  I had a mixture of sad and happy feelings whenever I finished reading The Last Battle.  It was sad to see the old Narnia come to an end, but there was happiness when the Pevensies and others arrived in the new Narnia.  They had come to a better place.  🙂

@starlit I know the text suggests that Tirian could have done things differently, but I think Aslan intended for the world to end here

Or, more to the point, C. S. Lewis intended the series to end, when I doubt that he ever wanted to take it as far as he did. I've read bits of information that by the time he got to VDT he was already going to finish. It is also telling that of all the Narnia books, MN was the last one to be finished. As if he found that he still had a few loose ends to tie up at the time. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

@starlit I know the text suggests that Tirian could have done things differently, but I think Aslan intended for the world to end here

Or, more to the point, C. S. Lewis intended the series to end, when I doubt that he ever wanted to take it as far as he did.

Yes, I did mention earlier in this discussion that the ultimate reason why Narnia ended when it did was the Inscrutable Will of the Author.  

I've read bits of information that by the time he got to VDT he was already going to finish.

I've read that too, and the ending of VDT would make a pretty good wrap-up, apart from the loose end of whether Eustace might be allowed to return to Narnia, which of course he is. Apparently Lewis wrote all the Narnia books in really quick succession — by the time LWW was published, I believe he had PC and all or most of VDT completed, but he published them at the rate of one per year. And then apparently by late 1952, when VDT was published, the final four books were all pretty much completed. (I think it was Walter Hooper who stated that somewhere, getting his information from Roger Lancelyn Green, who was close friends with Lewis at the time the latter was writing the books.)

Back on topic though — overall, I'm still sticking with my controversial argument that Tirian did several extremely foolish and ignoble things at the start of those final days of his reign that are related in LB, and that things might genuinely have been different if he'd made wiser choices. Narnia does have to end some time, like all mortal worlds, but does Aslan absolutely predestine the exact time and place and manner, or are there other factors involved?

I've just remembered something I quoted in a different discussion, from near the ending of MN, which further convinces me that "Aslan intended for the world to end here" isn't a valid argument from an in-universe perspective:

It is not certain that some wicked one of your race will not find out a secret as evil as the Deplorable Word and use it to destroy all living things.

That's Aslan speaking of our world, and that pretty much makes it explicit. All theological arguments aside here (and I honestly don't know what Lewis himself believed about fate vs free will): Aslan does not know for sure whether or not our world will end through nuclear warfare. In fact, it's shown there that at this point (in a story set in 1900 in our world), he doesn't even know for sure whether or not humans will discover the "secret" of nuclear weapons.

There's only one logical conclusion (again, this is in-universe, not intended to be an absolute theological statement!): Aslan does not know with absolute certainty how a particular world will end. Therefore, he cannot have foreordained the exact time and manner of its ending.

(I suppose we could argue that Aslan DOES know this is how our own world will end, but he's softening the statement by making it ambiguous so as not to terrify Digory and Polly. (Or rather, Lewis is being careful not to terrify his young readers, especially since he himself, as the author, definitely does NOT have foreknowledge of how our world will end.) But if we read it that way, this means that Aslan / God / Christ is capable of lying, even if it is a "white lie". I don't like that conclusion.)

So, for me, that really does settle it. In the context of the Chronicles, the exact time and manner in which worlds will end is NOT absolutely foreordained by Aslan. Which means that, if Tirian had acted more wisely and less hot-headedly (I've detailed the instances of this in earlier posts), things really COULD have been different and Narnia might perhaps have lasted centuries longer (if perhaps not "millions of millions of millions of years" longer) before coming to its end in some different way.

In other words: yep, IT'S (almost) ALL TIRIAN'S FAULT.  

I would agree that Narnia is not Calvinistic, broadly speaking. That's the big takeaway from the part of TLB with the dwarves who refused to be taken in. So it's reasonable to assume that things weren't necessarily preordained. However, Aslan knew that at no point would the bloodline of Caspian fail apart from the ending of the world. This gets into some interesting questions about foreknowledge and free will where I quickly get in over my head.

I think if anything would have gone differently on Tirian's end, it would have had to be earlier. Once we get to the point where Farsight arrives with the horrible news of military ruin and Roonwit's death, it feels like too late, militarily speaking. (And Aslan even says that he cannot undo all the wrong that had been done). Had Tirian made different decisions, for all we know, Aslan might have showed up earlier and intervened, maybe even "behind the scenes". Since this didn't happen, I think at minimum, Aslan was prepared to let things play out.

Posted by: @starlit

I think if anything would have gone differently on Tirian's end, it would have had to be earlier. Once we get to the point where Farsight arrives with the horrible news of military ruin and Roonwit's death, it feels like too late, militarily speaking

Oh, definitely. I mean earlier in the book, when Tirian first learns of the Calormenes enslaving Talking Beasts and killing the Dryads, purportedly under "Aslan's orders". That's when he makes a string of rash decisions — for him and Jewel to investigate the situation alone; for the two of them to murder two Calormenes on impulse; and for him to hand himself over to the Calormenes in shame and remorse — that bring more and more bad consequences, while allowing the Calormenes plenty of time to prepare for and enact their massive surprise attack on Cair Paravel, leading to Narnia's complete downfall.

I've said this in detail earlier, but if Tirian (and Jewel) had thought more carefully, and especially if Tirian had put his duties as King before his own impulses and reactions, he might have returned to Cair Paravel, called all his supporters together, investigated properly what was happening, uncovered the fake "Aslan", summoned support from Archenland... and, well, perhaps, just perhaps, Narnia would have thwarted a tyrannical enemy and would have survived and thriven again, just as it did in the overthrow of Rabadash (HHB) and of Miraz (PC).

Who knows — maybe the "real" reason Narnia ends when it does (apart from Lewis wanting to end the series on an eschatological note) is the Narnians' collective lack of faith in, and understanding of, the true Aslan? The Talking Beasts submitting to enslavement, the great group of them all being taken in by this "lion" that they only see dimly by firelight and who only "speaks" to them through a transparently self-serving Ape. Even Tirian is largely fooled by all this at first, despite Roonwit's warning that the stars are only foretelling terrible things and Aslan cannot truly be in Narnia at this time.

So — building on something I wrote earlier — have the Narnians all become so forgetful of what Aslan is really like? Why aren't any of them — especially Tirian, who as the latest in a divinely appointed line of rulers, should know these things... why aren't any of them (except that poor Lamb) standing up and saying "Excuse me! Aslan could not POSSIBLY be behind all these horrendous things!!!"...??? 

Yeah, actually, maybe it's not all Tirian's fault, although he of all people could and should have done far better than he did. There does also seem to be a collective failure of the majority of Narnians to recognise what Aslan's true nature is, and isn't. And maybe that is the decisive factor in why Narnia ends when and how it does. 

Posted by: @courtenay

Posted by: @starlit

I think if anything would have gone differently on Tirian's end, it would have had to be earlier. Once we get to the point where Farsight arrives with the horrible news of military ruin and Roonwit's death, it feels like too late, militarily speaking

 

So — building on something I wrote earlier — have the Narnians all become so forgetful of what Aslan is really like? Why aren't any of them — especially Tirian, who as the latest in a divinely appointed line of rulers, should know these things... why aren't any of them (except that poor Lamb) standing up and saying "Excuse me! Aslan could not POSSIBLY be behind all these things!!!"...??? 

 

There are some interesting parallels here with the history of Christianity. Almost immediately after Jesus left, people start coming in and introducing wacky ideas that totally go against what Jesus taught. While the apostles are still alive, they are able to keep things mostly in check, but after that, it doesn't take long for things to go seriously wrong.