^a movie that is really good when you're younger you don't "grow out" of. ex: disney classics

To try to keep this thread mostly on subject, should Bible movies for children be sugar coated or soften (i.e. babies floating away instead of being killed)? On the other hand, is it right to show the violence to little children (like in my example with the Prince of Egypt)?

This is a topic I've thought of in the past decade or so and I am firmly on your side. This issue extends beyond Bible stories too...a lot of cartoons tend to lessen violence of any kind in general. When I was a kid (in the late 70's and early 80's) the TV was loaded with cartoons with all sorts of violence. Occasionally main characters would die. I felt it was far more realistic to portray it in this fashion rather than dumbing everything down in a fashion which conditions kids more than makes them more gentle.

When I was a kid every boy (and some girls) had toy guns stuffed somewhere in their rooms and we'd play War almost everyday. Nowadays I think most "conditioned" parents would look at their kids like they were budding serial killers if they asked for one. This mindset I'm sure has spilled over into Biblical stories for kids as well, and the Bible is not a peaceful book. It is loaded with all sorts of violence, a lot of times sanctioned by God Himself. Let's not gloss over it. Show it how it was so that we understand what kind of world we live in and why Christ was so necessary for all of us.

Back to the topic at hand though...I've seen several of the movies 220 listed. I'm a huge fan of The Bible: In the Beginning and it's a surprisingly accurate depiction of the first 22 chapters of Genesis, although the Abraham portion tends to get a bit long in the tooth at times. I watched Peter & Paul when I was younger and enjoyed that as well...I think Anthony Hopkins played Paul.

In school, I'm taking a Hebrew Scriptures class which basically examines the stories and such. It is the coolest class ever!! We learned how to decode things like an ancient Hebrew listening to the story would and all these other cool things. My favorite so far is J source's Genesis story. He loves drama and sketchy stories. And before going into that class i never knew that the Bible was full of sketchy stories.... It's better than television lol.

We watched the Prince of Egypt in class the other day and it was sooo good. Its a really good adaption of the Exodus story. The teacher was kinda being a little weird because he wasn't there that day and the sub told us that he wanted us to take notes...on an animated movie..which was strange lol. I wrote like one sentence "this is an adaption of the Exodus story taken from Genesis".

Wow, great responses everybody!

I've seen David and Bathsheba (1951), The Ten Commandments (1956), The Bible: In the Beginning (1966), Jesus of Nazareth (1977), Superbook (1981-82), Jacob (1994), Veggie Tales: Rack, Shack, and Benny (1996), and Noah's Ark (1999). The only ones I like are Jesus of Nazareth, Superbook, and Jacob. When I think of Jesus, I think of Robert Powell (1977). He IS Jesus to me. Noah's Ark was disgusting. They got the story completely wrong. Nuff said.

I've seen maybe 15-20 minute bits of a few others ... thanks to YouTube. I want to see The Passion of the Christ, partly because of the controversy. I know it's really bloody. I also thought the parts of The Nativity Story that I saw in fanmade videos were well done. Which version of Esther should I see? I saw like 5 minutes of the one with F. Murray Abraham (1999). And I want to see Ruth (1960 and 2009). My mom thought the older one was well done.

The Prince of Egypt, except for how it downplays God's role in it and makes it all When You Believe In Yourself, Anything Is Possible.

I don't know which mod you are, but thanks for warning me.

my biggest concern I suppose is that the filmmakers will see content such as in stories of David and Bathsheba and what happened between them when they first met, and include it in the story but not show that what they did was wrong, that the Bible showed it was wrong, and that God thought it was wrong.

Complete agreement. I thought the 1951 version of this story made viewers sympathetic to the adulterous affair ... like The English Patient. Besides, Gregory Peck is wooden and overrated.

The Ten Commandments is an awesome film, but Cecil B. DeMille did take a few liberties with the story.

I think that's putting it mildly. I saw the movie once or twice when I was a child/pre-teen. I never really cared for it after that, mostly because of the dramedy and the liberties DeMille actually took. I'm not interested in romantic subplots.

Moses was an angry person, not just when he killed the Egyptian, and he was quite stubborn as well. He made five excuses at the Burning Bush not to go. He only went when he ran out.

I don't think you understand Moses at all. The only time I remember him becoming angry after he left Egypt the first time was when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. And God punished him. But otherwise, how did God describe Moses? As "very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth" (Numbers 12:3). And he was! Time and time again, Moses interceded for Israel. I don't see him as stubborn either. Why did Moses make excuses? Because he was meek! He felt really inadequate! You don't know feelings of inadequacy, do you? A few weeks ago, I knew exactly how Moses felt at the burning bush. And I guess you could say, I'm still making excuses to God. I know inadequacy.

I'm taking a Hebrew Scriptures class which basically examines the stories and such. It is the coolest class ever!! We learned how to decode things like an ancient Hebrew listening to the story would and all these other cool things. My favorite so far is J source's Genesis story.

Nice class. But ... "Hebrew Scriptures"? Sounds to me like a code word for a liberal version of [and attitude toward] the Bible. They use the phrases "Hebrew Scriptures" and "Christian Scriptures." Guess what? It's ONE Bible with ONE divine author = God. "J source's Genesis story" ... the JEPD theory?! It's "higher criticism" of the Bible [ ] and it's a load of crap [pardon my French]. Who wrote Genesis-Deuteronomy? Moses!

@Pattertwig: I'll respond to your questions on the Bible, violence, and children when I have more time.

(edited)

This is a topic I've thought of in the past decade or so and I am firmly on your side. This issue extends beyond Bible stories too...a lot of cartoons tend to lessen violence of any kind in general. When I was a kid (in the late 70's and early 80's) the TV was loaded with cartoons with all sorts of violence. Occasionally main characters would die. I felt it was far more realistic to portray it in this fashion rather than dumbing everything down in a fashion which conditions kids more than makes them more gentle.

Thanks for the agreement. Where where you when I brought this up in the Christianity thread? I do think we should be careful when we show children certain things. I was rather traumatized by Bambi. I don't think it makes them more gentle either. It drives me nuts at Sunday School because for several years now we have done lessons about Jesus entering Jerusalem and then go right to his appearing on Easter. Something rather important seems to be missing ...

When I was a kid every boy (and some girls) had toy guns stuffed somewhere in their rooms and we'd play War almost everyday.

*runs and hides convinced Shadowlander is a serial killer* I'm just joking. My sister and I didn't have toy guns but my mom had one when she was a kid. (For the longest time I was terrified of guns and couldn't even watch cop / detective shows. I read an article that said we (as in society) are actually doing boys a disservice by telling them they can't play war / games with guns. It said that when they are playing such games they are thinking about positive characteristics (I don't remember exactly which ones).

This mindset I'm sure has spilled over into Biblical stories for kids as well, and the Bible is not a peaceful book. It is loaded with all sorts of violence, a lot of times sanctioned by God Himself. Let's not gloss over it. Show it how it was so that we understand what kind of world we live in and why Christ was so necessary for all of us.

It certainly isn't a peaceful book.

Read them the story, don't gloss over it but don't go into extra details on those certain areas. Just read it to them straight like it says in the Bible. My Mom has been doing Bible lessons with my siblings and I since we were pre-kindergarten age, so we've "known" about Moses and the incident with Pharaoh and etc since we were very young, but it was as we grew older (when I say older, I mean at the ages of 7/8/9 etc) that we began to have some of the details filled in. That is much the same with many of the other stories in the Bible where the content may not be the best for younger children- we read the story originally, but it was only as we grew more mature and were at the right age to actually understand not just "it", but why "it" was wrong, that my parents began telling us more. (I hope that helps, I realize after typing it that it wasn't a direct reply to your questions. ) I guess, in a more direct reply to your answer, I think it's not good to show younger children violence, even if it is from part of a Bible story. Thankfully, though, we do still have the Bible from which to teach young children the stories, and I think it's key to start there, above all.

Excellent points (Don't worry the first part replied to the question I wanted to ask but didn't since this was a movie thread). Will the little kids understand death completely? No, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't know it happens.

I think babies floating away instead of being killed is taking it a bit too far. There are ways to show that sort of thing without actually showing it. I do not think the stories should be sugar coated for kids, but they can be softened a bit. I think in the case of Moses, mentioning that babies were being killed would be enough, just don't actually show babies being killed (I sound really morbid). I knew there was violence in the Bible when I was four, but I didn't grasp all of it. Much like how several little things escaped my notice in Peter Pan when I was seven, but I noticed them when I was fourteen. I guess my conclusion is violence can be in a kid movie, but it doesn't have to be shown. It actually happened, and that's important to know, but it doesn't have to be dwelt on.

Good points. They need to know that there is violence but the don't have to see it.
I'd better go. I've to get ready for church.

I rather liked Prince of Egypt (see here for Toon Zone's reviews). I don't think there was much to "warn" each other about, except that it was one song too long. Anyhow, anyone who can stand the tacked-on romance in The Ten Commandments should be able to handle Prince. It has one and only one scene of silliness, the chariot race. That's it. Spielberg, being Jewish, consulted with a number of Jewish religious authorities during the film's production. Don't forget to listen to the commentary track! Joseph, King of Dreams wasn't bad either. They made the dreams a Picasso sunflower effect. So 220 (and anyone else who hasn't seen them), here's my vote that you give it a try.

Shadowlander and Pattertwig's Pal: Prince dealt with the slaughter of the babies by putting it into hieroglyphs in the palace. That way the kids who might be too little would see stick figures while those who are old enough would realize they're seeing a re-enactment.

Nice class. But ... "Hebrew Scriptures"? Sounds to me like a code word for a liberal version of [and attitude toward] the Bible.

Well, "Hebrew Scriptures" is what followers of Judaism call their part of the Bible. That's their name. Jesus calls it "the Scriptures" several times and Paul a few times as well. Judaism doesn't call it "Old Testament" and it'd be flame-baiting, basically, to call it that to their face. Not that anyone here would, of course! And not that a Jewish person would punch you in the nose if you did. But it would have slammed a door closed between the two of you.

Oh, also, they number the books in different order: first the Torah, then the Nevim (Prophets), then the Ketuvim (the Writings). If you really are uncomfortable calling it the Hebrew Scriptures, another way to show respect is to call it the Tanakh, which is the acronym for the three sections. Goodness, I've met atheists who call it the First Testament, because while they don't submit to it they call it that to be polite to people who do, both Jews and Christians.

This is separate from what in scholarly circles is known as "deconstruction" and "liberal interpretations," by the way.

And because this is April Fool's Day, might as well pass along a joke from the church basement. Apparently there are parents who are strict enough with their kids that they consider Veggie Tales to be too secular and won't let the kids see it. And that, dear readers, is no April Foolin'.

I read an article that said we (as in society) are actually doing boys a disservice by telling them they can't play war / games with guns. It said that when they are playing such games they are thinking about positive characteristics (I don't remember exactly which ones).

Not to get too far off topic here ( )...when we were kids no one wanted to be the villain. No one. When we played War we usually squared off against imaginary tyrants, villains, or monsters, and it was almost innocent in its own little way. Standing up to such things is a good thing. Protecting yourself in real life from such things is also a good thing. But at some point (I think it happened in the 80's or 90's...there was a very subtle transition) there was a shift away from such things and so we've sort of been conditioned to think that holding even a toy gun is akin to holding a real one. I understand the thinking behind it, although I disagree with it.

Actually, now that I think about it I remember back in 1st grade that the teacher would go bonkers at us. They had these plastic toys that were like giant plastic erector sets. You'd bolt little contraptions together and almost all the time my friends and I would make these little "machine guns" and do sound effects, strafing large areas of the classroom. One kid would be doing a flying somersault and land with a graceful tumble-roll underneath a desk while another would do ginormous leaps over another one, and occasionally some poor kid's disdainful expression of "ugh...you got me..*gargle*". Stephen Seagal would have been proud...a room full of 7 year old commandos . Then the teacher forbid us from doing that. So we made swords and cutlasses and made like we were Robin Hood squaring off against pirates. I'm surprised the teacher didn't end up in the mental hospital as a result of our antics. Anyways, waaaay off topic.

Back on topic! The Bible (in particular the OT, although there are plenty of instances of death in the NT as well) is really not a peaceful book. Sometimes I kind of blanch a little bit when I read about what amounts to genocide, where not even the women and children were spared. At that point I understand it's my "modern sensibilities" kicking in and have to pull back and remind myself of a few things; that it was a very different time, different circumstances, and that God said to do it. And the last part is key because if the Almighty decrees you do such a thing, you do it (I should amend this by saying I don't think He'd do this again in the future). He's shown plenty of mercy to humanity but has wiped out people groups and on one occasion the world's entire population. There was some seriously ugly business going on in the OT, and if you excise certain portions so that it makes it more pallatable for kids...well, I just don't know how one can. Everything ties neatly together and if you exclude that much of what the Bible said happened it'd be akin to trying to warm up with a blanket in which the entire center has been removed. Kinda pointless, right?

It's more of a Theology/English/History class actually. We learn about the historical background of the Bible and about the Old Testament mostly which technically is "Hebrew Scripture". hence the named Hebrew Scriptures. Also God inspired human writers, He didn't exactly write it Himself.

And I don't think Moses could have written Genesis-Deuteronomy because the Hebrews didn't really have a written language way back then. So it must have been a later writer.

As a child, I remember learning about all the killing that goes on in the Bible, like the first born one in the Exodus story and Jesus dying on the cross, but for some reason I was never actually fazed or taken back by it. I kinda just took it as it was. I think i reasoned, if God wants all those people to die then there has to be a reason because God commands it. Exactly correct Shadowlander, one does what the Almighty God tells one to do. Don't question Him.

*pops in to relate a 'funny' story related to 1949 Sampson and Delilah*

My grandmother and her friend were talking about it and the friend said, "Yeah, it was great! Especially the surprise ending!"

To which my grandmother said, "What surprise ending?"

"You know, when they all died!"

And that is all I know about that film.

Is this thread exclusively for discussing adaptations of Bible stories, or just the Bible in general?

1. Do you think the Bible should be adapted for the screen? Only if it's done faithfully. See, a regular book... it's not a terrible deal if something is changed (it is for purists, but there's still no demand that nothing can be changed.) but when the Bible is changed for something, that could be venturing to deep waters. So, as long as it's done well and made no major changes, yes. Making some Bible stories into movies is a great way to tell people more and get them interested.
2. If yes to #1, what are some elements of a good film adaptation of the Bible? Keeping to the story. Irrelevant furniture or cloths shouldn't be majored but the ones that have specific meaning should. And, no big character changes or assumptions. AND, really, no cheesy behaviour. Make it as realistic as possible!
3. What are your favorite adaptations?Prince of Egypt, Joseph: King of Dreams, and The Gospel of John are some. (The latter's casting could have been better, but there were some fantastic details done.)
4. Which adaptations have been overdone? not done enough? should be redone? Ah, One Night With the King. There was faithfulness in it, but the necklace wasn't mentioned in the Bible (I know it was added for the story benefits, but it still isn't fully faithful to the true story then.), the whole lot of affection between Xerxes and Esther, and the Hebrew before that Esther liked and he met her in the palace... That movie could definitely be improved.
And Passion of Christ. It might have been a well-intentioned sentiment to show how much our Lord suffered, but it just seems like the director made it to show some violence on the screen. (And, the director just doesn't impress me.) (Do note that I haven't seen the whole thing, due to the rating-- my mom and dad forwarded the severe moments)
5. Which Bible stories do you want to see a film adaptation of? A good one of Joseph (non animated) and Daniel would be splendid.

Of those, I can remember seeing:

The Ten Commandments - an excellent film. Very true to the Bible. Even with the Princess going with them. Did you know she actually did? Apparently it says so in 1 or 2 Chronicles.
The Bible: In the Beginning - Saw that ages ago. Still remember bits of it though.
Solomon - Watched that recently. Very well done apart from a couple of unnecessary bed scenes and some artistic license regarding the Queen of Sheba. It really opened my eyes to some events I seem to have missed/forgotten that occurred during his reign.
Moses - Yet again another well done film. It also revealed some scenes I seem to have forgotten.
Prince of Egypt - A great film for all, especially kids, with an excellent cast and soundtrack. They did a great job of this story.
Joseph: King of Dreams - Same as before except I think my family prefers this over Moses.
Jonah: A VeggieTales Movie - Despite my age I really enjoy this. Lots of fun they put a fun twist as always on the Bible and make it accessible for young children in an enjoyable way.

I've also seen one of the Jesus ones but I'm not sure which (actually I am, the one for children ) and they did an excellent job of meshing the story of Jesus together.

I enjoy watching films from the Bible they can give you knew insights into the Bible which I think is important and they provide an alternative to some of the garbage of secular films today. So I definitely agree with them being made into movies.

The Ten Commandments - an excellent film. Very true to the Bible. Even with the Princess going with them. Did you know she actually did? Apparently it says so in 1 or 2 Chronicles.

Which movie version? 1 or 2 Chronicles: what are you talking about?

Aslan: the thread is for film adaptations of the Bible.

Only if it's done faithfully. ... When the Bible is changed for something, that could be venturing to deep waters. So, as long as it's done well and made no major changes, yes. Making some Bible stories into movies is a great way to tell people more and get them interested.

Agreed. I think film is an excellent way to make the Bible come alive. But it's alive to us anyway. Still, it's a great teaching and evangelism tool.

What do I really want to see on screen?
1. The story of Hannah and Samuel. I love Hannah.
2. The story of Daniel [the whole book] -- all those visions!
3. I love Esther as well. Maybe I should check movies about her out of the library. I haven't seen any of them.

Well, "Hebrew Scriptures" is what followers of Judaism call their part of the Bible. That's their name. Jesus calls it "the Scriptures" several times and Paul a few times as well. Judaism doesn't call it "Old Testament" and it'd be flame-baiting, basically, to call it that to their face. Not that anyone here would, of course! And not that a Jewish person would punch you in the nose if you did. But it would have slammed a door closed between the two of you.

"Scriptures": yes. I think my English teacher, a Catholic nun, called it the "Hebrew Scriptures" because of her Catholic education and because a Jewish unbeliever was in the class. But I thought Jews called the whole thing the "Torah," i.e. are you reading Torah? Jewish unbelievers don't call it "Old Testament" because they don't acknowledge the new. But Jewish Christians do call it the Old Testament. "Testament" = covenant. Old covenant = law. New covenant = grace. The method and language are the same = blood. Jesus used the phrase "new testament" at the Last Supper. The New Testament is no less Hebraic/ Jewish than the Old. And the Old Testament is no less Christian than the new. By faith, Christians of every race are Jews and children of Abraham. See Romans 11.

Also God inspired human writers, He didn't exactly write it Himself.

God dictated some parts to the human writers. He told Ezekiel and John and others: "write this." And He wrote the Ten Commandments on two tables of stone Himself. See Exodus 24:12, 31:18, 32:15-16, 34:1, 4.

And I don't think Moses could have written Genesis-Deuteronomy because the Hebrews didn't really have a written language way back then. So it must have been a later writer.

What?!

1. The Egyptians had a written language then! And Moses spent 40 years in Egypt's capital as the "son of Pharaoh's daughter." He would have learned writing from them. See Acts 7:22.
2. Jesus, the Pharisees, the writers of the four Gospels and Acts, and the Apostle Paul ALL credited Moses with the authorship of Genesis-Deuteronomy. See Matthew 8:4, 19:7-8, 23:2; Mark 1:44, 7:10, 10:3-4, 12:19, 26; Luke 2:22, 5:14, 16:29, 31, 20:28, 37, 24:27, 44; John 1:17, 45, 5:45-46, 7:19, 22-23, 8:5, 9:28-29; Acts 3:22, 6:11, 14, 7:37, 44, 13:39, 15:1, 5, 21, 21:21, 26:22, 28:23; Romans 9:15, 10:5, 19; 1 Corinthians 9:9, 2 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 7:14, 8:5, 9:19, 10:28. [Thank you to Blue Letter Bible! ]
3. Crediting someone else besides Moses is a result of modern "higher criticism." We're talking 2 centuries of a really bad lie. They think they're smart but they're fools. They can't take the Bible literally.

Shadowlander and Pattertwig: you're right. The Bible is full of violence. You can't escape it, especially in Judges. Most of the Old Testament is full of blood. But when God commanded the Israelites to wipe somebody out, there was a reason -- so they wouldn't pick up the bad habits and evil sins of those people. In other words, don't be like the people around you. Be separate. Be holy. Like ME. God used the Israelites to judge the evil of others.

220, the one about Esther One Night With a King, is an... okay version, but warning: there are additions, and IMO, the real themes aren't touched quite thoroughly in it.

Oh, and another movie I meant to mention The Nativity-- this one was good, but there were assumptions made that Mary's parents were "How could you do that?!" We're never told their response to her, but judging on Mary's character we see, she probably would have told them the whole story and they seemed parents of good ways, seeing the daughter they raised. I might be taking a small assumption when I say that, though. But I think that The Nativity took a big step deciding to make her parents judge her quickly. (I may be wrong--I haven't seen it in a while now) And I wish we had seen Mary a little happier in it.

*hopes she doesn't sound too critical of these movies*

I know what you mean, Bella, but I think, as well, that Mary's parents' response wasn't necessarily unreasonable for that day (or any day).

I, too, wished that Mary, herself, would have had some brightness to her spirit. I mean, did she ever smile in the entire movie—well, maybe a slight grin at one point? She just seemed so ... morose. Surely this was a huge deal for her, and naturally so, but from her "Magnificat" in Luke 2, she was filled with the joy of trusting in God and bearing His Son!

Overall, though, I enjoyed the film. Mary and Joseph became so real to me. And I loved the locations and cinematography.

A film that has made an impression on me is The Passion of the Christ. Hard though it is to watch, it gives me even more of an idea of what Christ went through, for us. Not to say the movie was 100% accurate, but being a visual person/learner, something this powerful helps reach to my heart as much as words/reading about it.

I did not enjoy One Night with the King. The best part about it, imho, were the costumes and sets. And didn't Esther have an American accent, if I recall? It's been awhile since I viewed this film, but I remember coming away from it thinking "meh".

Ditto Jo-Anna on One Night with the King. We saw it once and have never had the desire to see it again. A little too sensationalized and tweaked for our tastes. And I agree, Esther's accent was just silly.

Our church showed the film The Gospel of John on Good Friday. I was really impressed with it! It's narrated basically word-for-word, yet this never gets clumsy. (Of course they did leave out some incidents in Christ's life for the sake of time constraints, but we saw the two-hour version, and I guess there is also a three-hour version that is more complete).

I liked how the film didn't wallow in the violence of the crucifixion as Gibson's Passion of the Christ did. I know Gibson's version is realistic, but I think the viewer walks away thinking more of the gore than of the message, if that makes sense. I guess it's good to have both versions to balance one another.

It was interesting to see the actor who plays Desmond in LOST as Jesus though!