Excellent introductory post, Shadowlander!

I've not read Heaven yet (it may appear in my Christmas stocking ) but like you I have greatly enjoyed reading other NarniaWebbers' comments on its insights.

The next book on my to-read list is Alcorn's Safely Home, which is set in China and sounds a liitle like a cross between Heaven and a Frank Peretti thriller. (I'd have begun it already if it weren't for NaNo). I hope to begin it soon enough to post a few remarks here.

You may not have to leave your coffee behind!

I'll choose the Mountain Dew, thanks!

I haven't read Alcorn's book Heaven. But I have read The Grace and Truth Paradox, centered around John 1:14 I believe. I really liked it!

But I did definitely get the distinct impression from church that it would end up being one, enormous, eternal church service. And to an adventurous 8 or 9 year old boy that's simply not an appealing image. The total opposite of it in fact! But as no church I ever attended throughout life ever really spoke of Heaven as a place other than that never-ending church service that was the image I was finally settled upon, but I decided to just suck it up and deal with it because the alternative was infinitely worse.

Eventually when I read C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle I was absolutely enthralled with the Narnian incarnation of Heaven depicted in the book, and in my heart I secretly thought, "I wish I could go to that version of Heaven more than the one I'm stuck with." This is the terrible conceptualization of Heaven most of us have developed throughout life.

What is wrong with "one enormous eternal church service"?! Some of us are looking forward to that! All I wanna do is sing praises to Jesus! That will be heaven on earth compared to what I've been living through! Don't you love being in a good church service? And I think I pointed out on the CRP thread one time how many times angels and people are worshipping God in Revelation. It's full of worship! We were created to worship God. That is our highest purpose. So this is one problem I have with Alcorn's view of heaven, at least the way you've described it...

What is wrong with "one enormous eternal church service"?! Some of us are looking forward to that! All I wanna do is sing praises to Jesus!

I enjoy church service perfectly fine, but not enough to want to do it 24/7 for eternity. I also enjoy watching a good movie, but the thought of watching movies 24/7 for eternity to me comes across as depressing and dull as well. Is attending church services the only way in which you "glorify God"? How about when you show kindness to strangers in need of help? Or creating beautiful artwork and dedicating it to God? One could even make the argument that landing on the Moon, in our current "cursed" state, could be called bringing glory to God. The astronauts even recited verses from Genesis 1 as they orbited the Moon for the first time. We are, after all, His creations and to achieve such an incredible feat even in our downtrodden, sinful state speaks volumes about our capacity to achieve even more with perfect, sinless bodies in the future. God has big plans for this world of ours and for us as well, and there will by myriad ways to worship and glorify Him, not just in church services.

And I think I pointed out on the CRP thread one time how many times angels and people are worshipping God in Revelation. It's full of worship! We were created to worship God. That is our highest purpose. So this is one problem I have with Alcorn's view of heaven, at least the way you've described it...

The Heaven you speak of is what Alcorn calls the "intermediate Heaven". It is not Heaven's permanent setting and at best is a temporary place we reside after death. True Heaven won't occur until Christ's return (covered largely in Revelation) when our bodies will be ressurected and joined with our spirits here on a "refurbished", sin-free Earth. The New Heaven and New Earth. God will come to dwell among His people personally and will never leave us. Time will still exist, although it will not have as much importance to us as it once did since we'll essentially become immortal. You and I and every Christian will have work which God gives us to do, jobs, for lack of a better word. But these will be jobs you were custom made for, 220.

I seldom speak of this but if someone asked me in my heart of hearts what I really want to be "when I grow up" the answer would surprise them. I want Christ first and foremost, but after that I have always yearned, dreamed, wished, and hoped to be an Astronaut/Explorer. In the New Earth not only will I be able to fulfill that dream of flying off to distant stars and nebulae, exploring worlds hand-crafted by God, but Christ will be with me, physically in my ship, as we fly off to do this together.

Before you write a rebuttal, which I fully expect given that this flies in the face of much of what we have been taught throughout our lives, let me ask you this. When Adam was first created do we read that he built a church right away, grabbed a hymnal, and went right to it? Or, conversely, did he basically perform a job, something we would consider akin to that of a Park Ranger and Naturalist, tending the garden? Adam had a job! And Adam did his job while God walked beside him personally...when it gets down to the nuts and bolts of things this is how it was always meant to be.

Thanks for starting this SF, SL! I love hearing about other people's experiences with this book, because they are so often similar to mine.

220, I agree with SL that singing is not the only way to praise our Savior. In fact, the Bible says our "spiritual act of worship" is this:

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Singing definitely has its place, but it won't be our sole occupation. We will be productive citizens of a kingdom ruled by our Lord, and we will delight in working for Him. Work is not an evil in itself; it's the Fall that has made it onerous to us. Adam and Eve took care of the Garden — work — before sin entered the picture. You make great points about this, SL.

I think this idea that we will be disembodied souls floating around in saline solution, blissfully loving and worshipping God in this unbodied state, is a dangerous idea leached from Eastern mysticism. Does it somehow sound more spiritual to talk about Heaven in that way? We forget that God isn't just interested in redeeming souls — His ultimate plan is to redeem and restore ALL of creation, both the physical and the spiritual. Our bodies will be redeemed (resurrected) as well as our souls, and the rest of the world will be set free from the results of sin too:

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Amen. This makes me rejoice!

I reviewed Heaven (beware of a long, gushing, overjoyed spiel ). And yes, Dr. Ransom is the friend mentioned! Thanks again for raving about this book so much, sir! It has opened my eyes not to new truths foreign to Scripture, but to what the Bible really says about the life to come. I'm so thankful it isn't the vague, "super-spiritual" lie I believed for so many years.

I, like so many others, loved Heaven. I'm not sure I'd read any Alcorn before, though my mother had him as a teacher years previous. It really, and scripturally, made me excited about the next world in a way I hadn't thought possible. Perhaps I don't dream of spaceships and such, but I can imagine glorifying God through art and learning and the creation of beautiful things. It's been long enough that I really need to read it again.

I've also read Alcorn's Deadline and Lord Foulgrim Letters, the latter a "new Screwtape Letters." The first I found depressing because of its portrayal of a man and his family trapped in sin (he does eventually find a way out). It was depressing to me because of the realization that there are many people like that in the world, not in a bad way. The second, if I remember correctly, could not compare to Screwtape but was still very good.

The next book on my to-read list is Alcorn's Safely Home, which is set in China and sounds a liitle like a cross between Heaven and a Frank Peretti thriller. (I'd have begun it already if it weren't for NaNo). I hope to begin it soon enough to post a few remarks here.

Alcorn quotes that book in places and it looks like a good book, although Heaven is one of only two books I've read by him (the other one was also based on Heaven but was much, much shorter). From what I've seen it seems to incorporate Apocalyptic elements to it as well as the aftermath: The New Heaven and Earth.

Thanks for starting this SF, SL!

Well you're welcome! I've been itching to see one for some time because I'm eager to talk about it and I'm sure lots of other folks are too. But from the few number of posts I don't think that many folks have fully read the book and may not even really know what this SF is about, but cross your fingers and hopefully more folks will show and we can sell em' on it!

Perhaps I don't dream of spaceships and such, but I can imagine glorifying God through art and learning and the creation of beautiful things.

There's absolutely no reason that you can't do that in the New Heaven. In fact that may just be what God has lined up for you. We won't know for sure until we get there, but no matter what happens I'm enthused that I will have a job I love and that Christ will be physically there right by my side.

And now on to something I'm rather curious about. What types of jobs (for lack of a better word) do you suppose each of you will get in Heaven? I'm guessing 220 will want to be one of the music directors, stargazer in charge of the stellar cartography department (he'd be working with me ), Phos would be a full time student and artist (and yes, one can learn to do things in Heaven...we may end up with 1,000 side jobs just to keep us busy), and I'm not 100% sure, but wisewoman will likely want to be the "Head Archivist" of the National Library of Congr....er...Heaven.

I'm not 100% sure, but wisewoman will likely want to be the "Head Archivist" of the National Library of Congr....er...Heaven.

Only if the Head Archivist can read and read and read along with archiving

What did you guys think of Alcorn's position on animals in Heaven, and animals having souls? I hadn't thought before that animals do have souls, just not HUMAN souls. He makes some convincing arguments.

I'm inclined to believe animals will be there, up to and including the possibility of pets we've had in the past. Why shouldn't they be? We know from numerous verses in the Bible that at the very least there has to be some sort of stable in Heaven since horses are mentioned a great deal.

People have this natural affinity for animals. I really and truly believe it's hardwired into our systems, after all we were tasked with taking care of them at the very beginning, and I don't think that has ever totally left our programming. This is why nature shows and channels like Animal Planet have such a huge following. We have this gravitational pull to them and want to pet them and care for them. We feel bad when we see them get abused and are inconsolable when they pass away. In my youth I felt bad that somehow I was committing some sin by valuing a pet so much and grieving so terribly when they would pass on because we were told "It's an animal. It has no soul and you're the only one who matters to God, not your dead pet". Now it is true that God values us more than animals but even Christ said that God "loves the sparrows of the field". In my heart I know that there may be some surprise reunions with beloved pets and probably more than one Christian will be stunned when they see Fido or Rover running out of the front gate of Heaven and jumping on their former masters and licking their faces off.

When my wife and I were about 3 months from our wedding we were making arrangements to move her from Wisconsin to North Carolina and I was looking for an apartment that allowed pets for her dog Dewey. Laura just loved that dog and raised it from puppyhood and the two were inseparable. I had put down a deposit on an apartment and she called me crying that afternoon that Dewey had died. She still gets upset when she's going through old photographs and I do my best to console her. So I made her a promise that if I should pass before she does the 2nd question I ask when I get to Heaven (the 1st being "Where is Christ? Please bring me to Him!") will be to ask where Dewey is. Even if I come into instantaneous knowledge that Dewey is or isn't there I made a promise to my wife to ask, and that I will. She was a really good dog. I believe it was CS Lewis, in The Last Battle I think, who said something akin to nothing good ever really goes away forever and will be preserved.

I am constantly surprised at the number of people who pontificate that animals would not be in Heaven, despite Psa. 36:6, and despite Rev. 22 which says that trees got in (as well they should). Trees get in but your pet doesn't? C'mon.

Shadowlander: do you know what dogs do in Heaven? They run.

Hope this helps.

I received a PM from someone that was concerned that Alcorn may be kind of taking things too far and that the New Heaven and New Earth won't really be here on the Earth we know and love. You have to bear in mind that when this happens this Earth we live on now will be scrubbed completely free of sin and all traces of the Fall. It will be back to its original condition, along with pretty much the rest of the universe.

I have a 1968 Mustang that I'm rather fond of, but it is in ill repair. It has rust issues, the interior is in bad shape, and the engine needs a lot of work. When I eventually scrape together enough money I'm going to have the car refurbished back to its original mint condition (well...sort of. I'd like to drop a 289 V8 in there instead of the 200 inline 6-cylinder it has now, and I'm also thinking of putting in some disc brakes because riding around on 4 drum brakes can be a bit frightening when there's hard rain since drums stop working when they get wet, but I digress ). What good would it be to simply get the job half done? Even if I got the engine and interiors done it doesn't help that rust will eventually eat my beloved Mustang (her name is "Samantha", if you must know ) and I'll be back at square one.

In this way God is going to give the Earth a complete makeover, for lack of a better word. He's going to retool it and give it back its original, intended attributes, and I think I can safely say there will be some major improvements well beyond what we're expecting. Imagine the greenest shade of green you can think of. The green that God has planned will make the green your thinking of look the color of peas that have been sitting in a boiling pot of water for too long. The mountains will be more majestic, the water will be more...watery. And to top it all off we'll have improved bodies. People who have no mobility now will be not only regain use of their limbs but they'd be able to win Olympic gold just by going out for a brisk jog. And because we'll be immune to disease, sickness, and by extension death, we'll be able to perform amazing feats that even the most ardent X-Games participant today wouldn't dare to dream of, let alone attempt to duplicate.

Everything will be done for God's glory and God means to have His glory put on wide display, one way or the other.

Some brief suggestions for the Mysterious PM Writer ...

What we think about Heaven shouldn't be based on either what an author says, or perhaps an overreaction against too much "love of the world" that some Christians have, but on what the Bible says.

Scripture is so clear: the New Heavens and New Earth will be Earthly. Otherwise, we're forced to allegorize Revelation 21, and many passages in Isaiah, and impose a completely un-Biblical view of some kind of non-physical destiny for the righteous in the future!

Alcorn's book brings this out beautifully, accessibly, and with imagination yet solid basis in the Bible.

So my question, or challenge, really: bring these concerns to the thread, Oh Mysterious PMer? Let us talk about them with the right perspective -- whether Scripture confirms or denies an Earthly New Earth in the future, combined with New Heaven for the glory of God.

Great stuff, Shadowlander and others. What more could I say? Well, I'll come up with something, I'm sure, even if it's e-cycling a lot of what I've previously written. Though the Thanksgiving break is upon me, and there are many real-life things to do this weekend, I can't wait to say more in this thread. When it first started last Friday, I would have said more ... so much more ... yet this past week has been so busy. And as Christmas approaches, too ... well, that also has many things that remind me of Heaven!

That may be another question, which I'll leave as I head to bed for the night: what things on the Old Earth glorify God to you, make Him appear even more loving and mighty, and remind you of the coming New Earth?

Due to a discussion going on over in the CRP thread (specifically celebrating Christmas publicly as opposed to saying "Happy Holidays"), it made me wonder about something regarding this topic.

Do you think we'll still celebrate holidays on the New Earth? Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Birthdays, etc.? One can logically deduce that since time will still exist so then probably will your typical calendar year, and thus possibly holidays. I don't recall reading anything along these lines in Alcorn's book the first time around but I'm doing a reread for this thread and am over halfway through and was more or less curious.

A little catching up, even though I have yet to read the book :

I can imagine that those holidays commemorating the redemptive work of Christ (such as Christmas and Easter) may well be celebrated as the saints worship the Lamb who was slain. I'll have to give some thought to the others...but as things like birthdays could be considered a salute to God's sovereignty in our lives (our days were numbered before they began), we might be celebrating those too.

On jobs,

What types of jobs (for lack of a better word) do you suppose each of you will get in Heaven?...stargazer in charge of the stellar cartography department (he'd be working with me)...

It would be an honor, Shadowlander! Such a thing would be awesome.

I suspect my "job" might also tie into the natural world in general; I think I'm just wired to an awesome reaction to things like snow-capped mountains or a sky-blue lake (in addition to the starry majesty above).

*laughs* Now this I know will be a tempting lure for my mother to join Narniaweb...

My mom got the book...agh, forgot it's name. Something about "Passion for Purity" or something like that by Randy Alcorn. She's really liking it, and after she's done, she had suggested for my sister and I to read it so we'll probably do that. What are some other books by him that y'all would suggest?