Don't worry about me thinking your beliefs changed because of reading the Narnia books or anything. I feel like in this day and age we're all very aware of artists being biased and we all have our guards up when reading, watching, listening, etc. That's nice in that people are less likely to be converted by fiction to something I believe is bad, but it also means they're less likely to be converted to something I believe is good.  

Anyway, congratulations on your new faith. It can definitely be interesting (and in some cases, embarrassing) to look back on old internet discussions. I get why you wanted to write this. 

@phelanvelvel, many thanks for your heartfelt and moving post. I possibly have at least some idea of where you're coming from, as I was an agnostic throughout my teenage years. I never considered myself an outright atheist, as I was open to the idea of there being a God somewhere / somehow, but I was convinced there was no way of absolutely proving whether God exists or not. And I also can't convince myself to believe anything just out of needing comfort! But God got through to me regardless, as He obviously has done and is doing for you, and I just want to wish you strength and blessings in your own journey "further up and further in".

@phelanvelvel First of all, thank you for sharing your experience with us. It resonates with me too in a way. I myself am a Muslim, but I did research on Christianity and I never felt such comfort from the words of the Qur'an as much as I did from the Bible. No, I have not read the Bible (unfortunately), but I watched videos that qouted the passages/verses (I hope that's what their called, please don't attack me haha). I'm afraid to tell anyone about this, even my closest friends. (My country is dominantly Muslim, but other religions co-exist in peace, minus the conflicts the older generations have because of wars. The problems mostly stem from different religious values and how everyone thinks they're "better". All of my friends are Muslims.) I do still believe I am a muslim but I am considering reverting to Christianity when I'm older and more experienced/mature, because I do believe that this is one of the bigger decisions I can make in my life. I still have so much to learn, and so much to research, and maybe in the end I won't convert. Who knows? Only time will tell. So I guess consider yourselves lucky because you're the first people to know this.   

Posted by: @phelanvelvel

I understand that Narnia is not the most impressive work of fiction in terms of either plot or prose, but it seems there is an absolute truth in it which shines through for the spiritually hungry.

I think Lewis would be very happy to hear that! Lewis himself had similar feelings about George MacDonald's writings. Also, I remember you from The Silver Chair movie era and I never once thought of you as belligerent, so don't worry about that.

Posted by: @ilostmytorch

So I guess consider yourselves lucky because you're the first people to know this.   

I'm honored! And welcome to NarniaWeb!

@PhelanVelvel and @onlyifthewitchhastoast

Thank you for sharing your testimonies with us. Although I would say I grew up with one faith, it could be accurate also to say I grew up with several beliefs. (The adults, um, disagreed. Therefore they took me to Many, Many Churches, all of which did not necessarily have the same answer to 'What must I do to be saved?' It was harrowing, was all I'll say for now. Apparently an entire countryside came to be known as the Burnt-over District for their endless revivals by competing churches and such reasons.)

So fears I've heard of. Doubts don't worry me as much. Traditionally Jesus has been gentler with doubters than with know-it-alls. Doubts with seeking means they are wrestling with the faith and taking it seriously.

@PhelanVelvel, you might be interested in PLANET NARNIA by Michael Ward. Lewis himself wasn't originally a Christian, and Ward argues that Lewis brought a lot of Greco-Roman imagery into his writings as part of his own spiritual journey.

An example would be THE HORSE AND HIS BOY as starting with Mercury the messenger, and Lewis essentially traveling toward how Christ became the great message of his life.

Or, since it's next in the films, THE SILVER CHAIR as a story of moonlight and water, both of them being silvery and slippery, a reflection rather than a solid footfall. Interesting therefore that Puddleglum proclaims he will chase Narnia even if others call it illusion. Just as the moon really has substance and reality (and gravity!) even though we cannot touch it from here, Puddleglum perceives that Narnia has a substance and reality even if he cannot prove it from there.

@onlyifthewitchhastoast, in light of how I didn't find being pulled from church to church easy, I often wondered how I could stick to my Jesus when the world gave me so many different answers. The actual Bible was a huge help to me, as it seems to be a help to you. And I wondered why it gave hope when many other religions recommended honorable living. I guess it helped me to hear a preacher once say, 'If I've fallen in a pit, it doesn't help me out of the pit to have other people in the pit with me. I need some outside the pit who can help pull me up and pull me out. Jesus in his incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection got out, and he came here to help me out too.' I don't know if that makes sense to other people. Maybe.

Anyhow, welcome to NarniaWeb!

Thank you for sharing your searching and your journeys to faith.

If you are interested in the journey of C.S.Lewis, it would be more helpful to read a 20th century biography by someone who knew him.  I do not recommend the 21st century theories of a man who never knew Lewis. 

Lewis's own book about his spiritual journey is called Surprised By Joy. 
A very good biography is by George Sayer, and is called Jack (it is recommended by Douglas Gresham, who was Lewis's stepson, and knew him very well indeed. Mr Gresham has stated that Mr Ward is a very nice man, but was wrong on this).

@mr-darcy-has-my-heart Wow, thank you for sharing that!  Just going to kind of respond to everyone/vent in general here, lol...

I still find spiritual belief/religion in general difficult at times.  I have OCD.  I was enjoying Christian videos from all different denominations (I don't have one), but I started reading comments where Protestants and Catholics would basically insult each other.  (P.S. I also just recently read about how Tolkien and Lewis experienced some serious friction in their relationship due to this whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing...)  This led to me reading more about Catholicism and almost having a panic attack a couple of times.  I would become deeply vexed reading things like "if you know the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation yet refuse to enter her, you cannot be saved."  All I see is people arguing that it's necessary, so does that mean I know it's necessary?  I'm definitely not going to join it, so does that mean I can't be saved now even though I accepted Jesus?

I went to Catholic school as a kid, and it wasn't horrible or anything, but it doesn't suit my sensibilities.  The whole physical church thing in general (being in essentially a windowless box with people chanting) completely freaks me out.  I kind of had a breakdown, like if I have to be part of that and do all of these rituals to be saved, then I guess I'm not a Christian after all.  I considered maybe just forgetting about the whole Christianity thing because I don't feel Jesus' love from a lot of these Catholic teachings.  I often get the impression that Catholics derive a sense of satisfaction from others not being saved because they can't be as "hardcore" as they are.  All of this considered, I don't care if other people are Catholic, and I think the Catholic church has served an important function throughout history and continues to do so.  But the thing is, I don't agree with everything they believe, and I would never call into question their salvation.  That courtesy is not reciprocated.

To be honest, it's not just Catholic teachings.  I think a number of Christian denominations believe that you can't be saved if you're not explicitly Christian; I discovered this by reading people saying that C.S. Lewis was a heretic because Emeth in The Last Battle is accepted by Aslan.  Also, going back to the Catholic thing...  I have tocophobia, and I will count myself lucky if I can have one child and remain psychologically healthy.  The Catholic obsession with having a million kids and not having sex unless you're trying to have a kid is just mind-bogglingly scary to me, as if they just want women to be pregnant every year of their life.  It was making me sick to my stomach.  So yeah, I was like, maybe this was all a mistake with how badly it's affecting my OCD...

But I couldn't imagine turning away from Jesus.  I think about what he went through for us, and I just couldn't do that.  (P.S. If anyone is curious, the Shroud of Turin played a big role in helping me come to faith because I do believe it is legitimate.  I have a three-hour video on it I can link you, if you're interested--from a Catholic Youtube channel, of course, lol.  But I believe it is the physical evidence so many of us modern-day "Thomases" are searching for.)  Anyway, every time I spiralled into panic, before long a wave of calm and peace would pass over me.  Even right before bed.  That's pretty crazy to me, because I used to struggle with a lot of night frights and nightmares, feeling like I was being watched or stalked, waking up sweating and trembling in terror.  Ever since I sought God, those occurrences faded.  I can't even remember the last time that happened.

I have basically concluded that I am going to continue following and pursuing a relationship with God/Jesus regardless of whether Catholics think I'm saved, because it does feel like He loves me.  Maybe it's possible that certain teachings have become corrupted over time...  I don't know.  I thought the whole "not everyone will be saved" thing was because some people are just downright evil, not because some people find it way too hard to integrate into a specific church structure.  It's not like forcing myself into it while not wanting to do it would "count", so I see no point in that, either.

So yeah, a rant...  When I used to see people complain about this stuff, I would think, "This is why religion is so horrible" and things of that sort.  But maybe it's just humans messing it up.

@phelanvelvel Thanks for all you're sharing along your journey, and with so much honesty. I love what you say here:

Posted by: @phelanvelvel

Anyway, every time I spiralled into panic, before long a wave of calm and peace would pass over me.  Even right before bed.  That's pretty crazy to me, because I used to struggle with a lot of night frights and nightmares, feeling like I was being watched or stalked, waking up sweating and trembling in terror.  Ever since I sought God, those occurrences faded.  I can't even remember the last time that happened.

That to me sounds like proof positive (and more) that you're seeking and finding God, and that's what matters the most.

I'd say (from experience as well), try not to get too hung up on the differences between denominations and the horrendous arguments and baiting and name-calling that, sadly, go on between a lot of Christians. The whole history of Christianity, unfortunately, is full of that. As you've observed, there are a number of denominations (not just Catholicism) whose official stance is pretty much "if you don't join our church / believe exactly what we tell you to believe, you will go to hell". I think your conclusion "maybe it's just humans messing it up" is spot on.

Honestly — as someone who wasn't brought up with religion and was an agnostic for many years — I hate to think how many sincere and heartfelt seekers are put off Christianity by the behaviour of so many of its professed followers, today and throughout history. I'm just now remembering a quote from the Victorian-era minister Henry Drummond's famous sermon The Greatest Thing in the World, where he remarks on "how many prodigals are kept out of the Kingdom of God by the unlovely character of those who profess to be inside." (That whole address is a very deep and beautiful analysis of 1 Corinthians 13, the well-known Bible passage on the nature of love. It's out of copyright, so can be read for free online, and it is hugely worth reading and thinking on.)

Or, even more bluntly, there are a couple of quotes attributed to Mohandas K. Gandhi: "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." — and "If it wasn't for Christians, I'd be a Christian."

But in a way, all that is also not much different from what Jesus himself faced, with so many of the religious leaders of his own time being very good at telling others what to do and denouncing those who were seen as not good enough, all the while totally failing to show forth any real qualities of holiness in their own lives. (To the point, of course, where they concluded this Jesus of Nazareth was a serious threat to their authority and must be got rid of...)

You might already be aware that C.S. Lewis himself wrote a book called Mere Christianity — compiled from addresses he gave over the radio to the general public in Britain during World War 2 — which deals a lot with this issue of divisions between Christian denominations and the question of which one to choose, by focusing on the main things Christians have in common. That's something you might find helpful to read.

I would add that I myself don't agree with absolutely all of Lewis's theological ideas, and I doubt he would agree with all of mine (I belong to a non-mainstream denomination, and I've definitely heard all the "you're wrong and you're going to hell" stuff before), but that's not a bother to me. He's still the first writer who truly introduced me to God — through Aslan — and the character of Emeth (whose name, by the way, is the Hebrew word for "truth") has also always stayed with me too. That scene with him is a great reminder that it is God who knows and judges each individual — who knows where each one's heart truly is and what they are honestly reaching out for, sometimes in spite of all outward appearances or any wrong things they may have been taught to believe. And that's what matters, not what anyone on earth (including myself) may think.

I don't know exactly where your path will lead you, but I would say: just stick with that closeness to God that you are starting to feel — stick with it and stick with it, no matter how turbulent life gets. He's broken through to you, in spite of everything, and He is not going to turn around and leave you, any more than the shepherd in Jesus' parable would leave behind that sheep who was lost. Christianity is ultimately about your individual relationship with God / Christ, not about what anyone else may try to tell you that you should and shouldn't do. He is responsible for your salvation; other people are not. Trust Him to carry through with what He has begun in you. Just trust Him.

Wishing you joy on your journey "further up and further in".  

@courtenay Thank you so much for your response!  It truly means a massive amount to me.  I was getting so stressed out over it.  I think the only reason the Catholic argument bothered me the most is because they technically do have time, history, and tradition on their side, but I guess it's inevitable that things would change over the centuries with human influence.  It just troubles me when they say that they have to be right about absolutely everything because God will speak through the Pope due to them being the line of successors after Peter.  This idea that they could be totally without fault, even about things that really trouble me, aggravates my OCD.  x__x  I kind of feel like that denomination in general is not great for people with OCD, lol.  But I don't really buy it, to be honest.  I don't think humans could be totally infallible in their theological interpretations, and (unless I am mistaken), I don't think the Bible says that there would be people infallibly speaking on behalf of God after Jesus went back to Heaven.  Also, it assumes that their selection of each Pope would have to be totally infallible, too, and I don't think we necessarily have evidence for that, either.  I'm not an expert, but it seems like a lot of Catholicism's claims are unfalsifiable, like you can't even try and disprove them because the Bible doesn't say anything about it.  Anyway, I think I'm just going to stop trying to understand them, lol, because it went from me being curious to learn about others' beliefs to "Oh, they're saying I'm going to hell". 

But I'm so appreciative of C.S. Lewis, Narnia, and this community (and Tolkien/LotR, too).  I remember, before I even started really believing in God, we were watching the LotR movies and I broke down crying at the end saying how I really wanted to believe that Lewis and Tolkien were right about there being a higher power and something beyond the material.  I actually did read Mere Christianity just a few months ago!  Oddly enough, shortly after I had a bit of a revelation in terms of finding God or whatever you want to call, I met a Christian runner at a local race, and now we're really good friends and run together all the time.  That is the one and only time I have ever made a friend at a race!  She suggested Mere Christianity, and I was reminded that the only work of Lewis' I had read was Narnia, which I thought was silly considering how much I loved his writing.  I have another friend I met years ago who is Christian, and when I first met her I definitely was not keen on the whole Christianity thing.  Much has changed, but it feels like these people showed up at the right times and have given me the support I needed.  I totally see how Christians need to connect with and help each other rather than being isolated.  I don't think physically attending a church service will ever really be my cup of tea--and I'm super introverted, for the most part--but I do talk to my Christian friends, read/watch content by Christians, such as videos about Biblical history or Bible studies, and now I've also come and expressed my anxieties to you guys, lol.  I also share those videos with some friends who are still atheists or perhaps less convinced.  I try to do the church thing in a less literal sense.  Hopefully God will understand.

I also am pretty adamant about us not passing judgement on whether other people have attained or will attain salvation.  I think it's totally fine to point something out and say "That goes against such-and-such teaching", but to say that we concretely know whether God is going to accept someone is a step way too far.  God can do whatever He deems right.  I don't even believe that damnation is eternal because God is outside of time, so it might be possible for a person in that state to repent and come back to Him.  Maybe God will remake the whole cosmos again at some point for all we know and give people who failed previously a second chance.  Just like when atheists get way too overconfident and say that they know there is no God or that the universe must begin/end in a certain way, it's like, dude...you're putting a lot of faith into your own interpretation based on limited evidence and your limited human mind--it may not be the correct one.  That's one thing that bothers me about atheism and religion alike, is the insistence that we must KNOW something for a fact even if science/God has not told us very much about these exotic metaphysical situations.

Posted by: @phelanvelvel

(P.S. If anyone is curious, the Shroud of Turin played a big role in helping me come to faith because I do believe it is legitimate.  I have a three-hour video on it I can link you, if you're interested--from a Catholic Youtube channel, of course, lol.  But I believe it is the physical evidence so many of us modern-day "Thomases" are searching for.)

Very interesting. I also believe that it is legitimate. I first read about it roughly sixty years ago, and I've read books about it later, about testings and investigations that hadn't even happened yet when I first saw a picture of it. (I guess I shouldn't go too far into this here, it would need a separate thread, not to take this thread too far off topic - and I don't know what Forum to choose, so perhaps PMs would be better if we should discuss it further. But I'll share a couple of observations.) I'm not a Catholic, btw.

I have links to several websites that I haven't had time to watch, too - one of them about someone (a Jew, if I remember correctly) who had been invited to join a team to study the Shroud. He had accepted, expecting to be able to point out the direction of the strokes of the paintbrush, and brush the whole thing off very easily. Only there were no strokes of a paintbrush. So far nobody has given a conclusive explanation of how the picture has come about, but it's definitely not a painting.

Some of the importance of the Shroud is actually mentioned in John's Gospel. At least its actual importance at the time.

In the beginning of John, chapter 20, Mary Magdalene found the empty tomb and told Peter and John about it, which made them run to the tomb to see for themselves.

So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first.
And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in.
Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there,
and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.
Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed.

(John 20:4-8)

There are a lot of details here about how they moved, and who saw what in which order, so they must have seen it as important.

John saw the linen cloths and believed. And I trust that the linen cloths that he saw, were what now can be seen in Turin.

And then those linen cloths are never mentioned again in the Bible. Perhaps because contact with dead bodies (even indirectly, as wtih clothes) made people "unclean", usually for the rest of the day (and requiring a bath), so it's possible they were just stored away and never put on display until they ended up in a different country. There they were revered, and moved around, and eventually ended up in Italy.

I seem to have read that there will be a public display of the Shroud of Turin some time this year. It would have been great to see it, but it's too far for me to travel.

@varna I totally agree!  I can't remember if it was in that three-hour video or a different one, but I remember someone pointing that out.  It definitely makes the most sense to me that they saw something additional beyond just the tomb being empty to believe that something extraordinary had happened.  I'm not sure exactly what the shroud must have looked like at the time since it doesn't really look like much nowadays unless you're able to examine it up close in good lighting (or use technology), but maybe there was some residual effect that clearly conveyed the supernatural origins of the image...?  I suppose they didn't want to go into too much detail about it and draw unnecessary attention to the artifact itself, which would probably have interfered with it surviving into the present day.  Interestingly, an article you can find online called "The Shroud of Jesus: The Discovery of the Image of an Upright Man", states that the image and blood stains indicate that the subject was in an upright position at the time the image was captured on the linen.  That's a tidbit I hadn't known until just now.  As for being on topic: it's my thread--I'll do what I want!  Haha. 

I believe that the shroud was left behind for all of the skeptics of our day who are science-minded and require physical evidence (myself included).  What are the odds of this one-of-a-kind artifact, which cannot be recreated or explained away, ALSO being the alleged burial shroud of the historical figure purported to work miracles, rise from the dead, and ultimately start the world's most popular religion?  If it were a forgery/fake, it would make sense; of course you would want to fake an artifact tied to a famous religious figure.  But the fact of the matter is that it's completely unique and remarkable.  Why don't we have any other examples like it?  Why didn't this amazing process, if due to natural means, happen to literally anyone else?  I'm not a statistician, but those odds seem so ridiculous as to be virtually impossible.  I thank God for this sign He left us, because some of us really need it.

I get the impression that Jesus didn't like flaunting his powers and that he did the bare minimum on that front, and it was usually to help people.  (My favourite miracle is walking on water, though, I have to say!)  Reading the gospels, I get the sense of a god-like figure who is trying to provide evidence while not going overboard, who can't help but intervene to alleviate suffering but who knows he has to restrain himself from fixing the whole broken world with the snap of his fingers (because that would be a temporary solution unless he also stripped us of free will).  Considering all that, it's awesome that He cared enough to leave us such a provocative artifact.  It makes me wonder how many people might become curious about Christianity if the facts about the shroud were popping up repeatedly on their Instagram/Tiktok feed...

Posted by: @varna

I have links to several websites that I haven't had time to watch, too - one of them about someone (a Jew, if I remember correctly) who had been invited to join a team to study the Shroud. He had accepted, expecting to be able to point out the direction of the strokes of the paintbrush, and brush the whole thing off very easily. Only there were no strokes of a paintbrush. So far nobody has given a conclusive explanation of how the picture has come about, but it's definitely not a painting.

That would be Barrie Schwortz, who was the official photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) in 1978. He was indeed a Jew and was expecting to find evidence that the image on the Shroud was painted or otherwise man-made, but over the course of the project, he was led to conclude that there simply is no humanly logical explanation for how that image got there. I don't think he ever went so far as to convert to Christianity, but he spent the rest of his life studying and researching the Shroud and all the various theories about it, tests that have been done on it, and so on, and compiling an extensive website (shroud.com) with all the information he could find. I've just checked it for the first time in a while and found that he passed away peacefully just last year, but others have taken over the website and it's still going. It's a sprawling compilation, but worth delving into for anyone who's interested!

My own faith doesn't hinge on whether or not that piece of cloth actually covered the body of Jesus — I had heard of it before, but only vaguely, and I didn't become interested in it until a couple of years after I had become a committed Christian, when I happened to run across a book on it somewhere, I think in the university library while I was doing my degree. What most fascinates me, like Barrie Schwortz, is that nobody has ever come up with a workable theory for how that image was made — there is just no method we know of that could have produced it.

The clincher for me is that it is (famously) a perfect photographic negative. I'm (just!) old enough to have been taught photographic development and printing at school, back when that was still how all photos were made, so I have a good idea of the processes involved and the chemicals that are needed and so on. There is just NO WAY that the image on the Shroud could have been made with the technology and knowledge that existed in medieval times (when, according to sceptics, the Shroud was created as a clever forgery), let alone in the first century AD — or indeed at any time before the 19th century. (And even once the photographic negative had been invented*, there was no way of making and developing one on a piece of fabric. Today's modern printing techniques could probably reproduce the Shroud's image accurately on another piece of fabric, but the actual original image that we're talking about is not printed!!)

Posted by: @phelanvelvel

But the fact of the matter is that it's completely unique and remarkable.  Why don't we have any other examples like it?  Why didn't this amazing process, if due to natural means, happen to literally anyone else?  I'm not a statistician, but those odds seem so ridiculous as to be virtually impossible.  I thank God for this sign He left us, because some of us really need it.

I get the impression that Jesus didn't like flaunting his powers and that he did the bare minimum on that front, and it was usually to help people.

Well, the Gospels do say many times that Jesus healed multitudes, and that he taught his followers to do the same and commanded them to go out and do so — which, according to the Book of Acts (written by the same author as Luke's Gospel), they definitely did, including raising people from the dead. There are still Christians today who are committed to doing the same, to the highest of our understanding. But yes, none of that changes the uniqueness of the Shroud and the fact that it does fit in with Jesus' complete triumph over death itself. If any one event in Christian history should leave a unique sign, the resurrection of Jesus is surely it.

And as you say, if that otherwise inexplicable sign gets other people starting to wonder...  

* 1835, by William Henry Fox Talbot, at his home in Lacock Abbey, Wiltshire, for those who like history! There's a museum there dedicated to him and the history of photography in general.