I'm going to have to agree with Digory. That verse means to teach your children to have a thirst for God and to retain a focus in him and His Word. Even as a home-schooler surely you sometimes spend time away from your family where you aren't learning about the Scriptures? Is that going against what God says? Just something to think about.

That is a good point. But when you send your kids to school, they learn things from the teacher's point of view (or they learn whatever is politically correct at the moment). When you teach them at home, your parents teach you from the Biblical standpoint and not from whatever new phase or worldview that is considered correct by society. I'm not condeming anyone who goes to public school (alot of my friends do) I just don't think that it's the best option out there.

How are you supposed to learn Biblical Science from an atheistic public school teacher.

You're not going to, but. . . for the record people who do not learn about the theory of evolution (even learning the fallacy riddled teaching of evolution presented through most Christian curriculums) cannot truly understand Creationism. You cannot fully understand your own argument, until you understand the argument of your opponent. So the learning of evolution is just as important as learning Creationism. Blandly believing one, without understanding the other, completely ignores the act of reason that God gave to us.

Bible is our foremost subject, and then theology and worldview.

I'm not sure that. . . as a school subject. . . the Bible should be placed above any other bit of instruction. Now, again, don't misunderstand me when I say this. I'm not saying that the Bible isn't important, it alone is eternal, whereas most other knowledge is temporal. However, here on earth, all knowledge is equal. There is no bit of knowledge that is any more important than any other bit of knowledge (outside from the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ). To believe otherwise would be like saying that "Learning biology is better than learning chemistry." or "Learning grammar is more important than learning English." You just can't have one without the other. If you don't understand chemistry, you'll have trouble learning biology. If you don't understand English, you'll have trouble with grammar.

Am I saying that Bible shouldn't be a part of your curriculum, of course not! But devoting the majourity of your school time to the Bible and theology isn't going to prepare you for life (unless your life's goal is to become a pastor, and even then you won't have the necessary skills).

But teaching the Scriptures is the most important to me.

And I'm not saying that teaching the Scriptures to your child shouldn't be important. It should! However leaning towards one subject in schoolwork isn't going to help anybody. Along the same argument, I would not advise a teacher to teach nothing but science, or english, or history. Our education needs to be well-rounded.

You have said that your studies are "well-rounded" however, you also say that your studies have the heaviest emphasis on the Bible, and theology. If this is the case, then, by the definition of the word, you're education cannot be well rounded, because to be well rounded, all subjects must be treated the same.

NEAR IMMEDIATE EDIT:

That is a good point. But when you send your kids to school, they learn things from the teacher's point of view (or they learn whatever is politically correct at the moment).

Are you saying that it's bad when students learn from a teacher's biased views, but it's good when students learn from a parent's biased view just because said views are "Christian." If that's the case, then we might as well throw logic and reason out the window, because (according that line of thinking) we should just accept what we're told, and never question anything.

Glenstorm, I hope you realise there are Christian teachers in public schools. Also, if we are Christian, our world-view and faith should be woven naturally into the teaching of subjects. Our faith is not something separate from other aspects of life, but part of it. Digory makes a great point in that it's important to think critically and have an understanding of what others believe and think, so that you grow stronger in your faith and have a solid understanding of what you believe and why, not just believing 'because the Bible told me so'.

I understand what you guys are saying. I do know alot about evolution b/c my science curriculum has more than one module just about evolution and one devoted entirely to Charles Darwin. But when that's all your learning, and not the Biblical standpoint, that's not a good place to be at. I do personally believe though that the Bible is the most important. "All scripture is useful for teaching, correcting, and training in righteousness" (paraphrased, from memory) The Bible says that it is all we really need for any kind of teaching. We can supplement, but the Bible is the most important teaching tool.

But when that's all your learning, and not the Biblical standpoint, that's not a good place to be

So. . . along that argument. . . why is it all right to base so much of your education on the Bible? If it's not good to focus on one study, than why is it good to focus on the one study of the Bible?

The Bible says that it is all we really need for any kind of teaching. We can supplement, but the Bible is the most important teaching tool.

You've contradicted yourself in these two sentences, GTG (I hope you don't mind me calling you that ) If the Bible is all we need for any kind of teaching (which I'll come back to in a minute). Then it doesn't need to be supplemented.

I'm sorry, but the Bible is NOT the most important teaching tool. We actually dealt with this issue on the old forum, and I think you'd find one of my posts in there fascinating. I'll paraphrase it because it's far too complex for me to remember.

If the Bible were our only textbook (which you have said it could be since you said "The Bible says that it is all we really need for any kind of teaching.") then all of medicine, all of society, all of technology is gone. Computers are not in the Bible. The complex chemical processes of internal medicine are not in the Bible. The calculus required to build a suspension bridge is not in the Bible. In short, the world in which we live could not exist with merely the Bible as a guide.

I don't mind at all, it's better than Glenny (someone was calling me that and finally I asked "You know I'm not a boy right" "Oh...you're not?" *sigh*) anyway...

I suppose you're right (boy I hate being corrected). But the Bible is the most important part of life, if you don't have God's word and Him in your heart, where's the meaning to life? Education is very important (extremely important actually) but if your spiritual life is dead, than the rest of your life has no point.

Ah. . . and now we move out of the realms of this thread, out of the realm of education, and into pure theology, which is where this discussion belongs. Is the Bible the most important part of life. . . well. . . God is the most important thing in our life, and God has revealed Himself to us through His word. . . so. . . I guess I could say that the Bible is one of the most important things in life alongside all of the other things of God.

I also agree with your second point. Education in science, history, grammar, etc. . . is to shape our earthly lives, whereas education in the Bible shapes our eternal lives. Both are very important, becase unless we live though our physical lives, we'll never make it to our eternal lives (that is to say. . . a "good" eternal life You're gonna live forever no matter what, but just like in real estate. . . location location location!)

lol, I'm glad we agree about something.

Interesting reading this debate i was hopping it wouldn't end up in a full on internet war.

If you have the money you shoudl choose whats best, private, homeschool or public for you child.

On the subject of schools i got my report back yesterday. I got B's for sport and personal fittness and A's for the rest. so that is 7 A's and 2 B's, The ebst report i have ever got.

i was hopping it wouldn't end up in a full on internet war.

No worries about that. Narniaweb is far from allowing that.

Congrats on your report by the way.

Hm, ok. So--on the homeschooling issue (that's the topic I'm in I guess)
...I don't think it's really a matter of Homeschool or Private or whatever.

It's a matter of what they're teaching in the schools. If you're homeschooling your kid, but teaching him things that aren't Biblical, obviously there's a problem.

The issue isn't really where you go to school. It's what's taught in the school. It's what's promoted. And--hey. I've never been "taught" in a public school, I don't know what it's like.
But from what I hear---it's not exactly pretty; not something I think God would want me to send my children away to.

Public primary school are usually really good not much goes on but when it comes to highscool you need to be the right sort of person to last. A person hat is not easily pushed around. A person that doesn't do stuff just because everyone else is doing it.(eg smoking) not as many people do it anymore anyway.

Anyway private schools are just as bad usually, especially the boarding ones. They grow marijuana planets in their cupboard. Also the private school close to my primary school tease people with red hair a lot.

edit: do you get reports and grading when you are hoemschooled?

Yup. My parents graded my stuff just as if I was in a regular school. They were pretty tough when it came to my grades. So I had to work for good grades the same as I did when in public school and private school.

Hmm, what I wrote recently and elsewhere seems even more relevant in this discussion. I’ll finish these thoughts with that stuff, near the end.

).

Where sin really comes from

I mean these things on the human side, of course. On the spiritual side, sin survives in the human heart, not by possessing Things like idols, or public schools, or Bad Movies, or evolutionary textbooks. I don’t mean that those things cannot lead to sin — of course they can! But exposure to them only resonates with indwelling sin that is already within a person, not the Thing.

A wider world

One sin prevalent among homeschoolers is having too narrow a view of the world. By that I do not mean a Biblical view, which by definition and rightfully so is “narrow” so as to prevent ideas that are not Truth. Instead, I mean assumptions about how the world works, or how families should operate.

For example, a question for those homeschoolers who do insist that homeschooling is the only Biblically permissible mode of education for everyone: would you insist the same thing on a single mother, who needs to work to support her family after being abandoned by her husband (or even divorced from him willingly, after which she regrets that decision)?

What about a struggling family — more prevalent these days — in which both parents simply must work or else fail to meet mortgage payments, or rent, or whatever? I am aware of one real-life case in which a strong Christian family, last year, was trying to move about 1.5 hours away to a large city, where the husband/father would be the head of a downtown rescue mission. Throughout all of 2009 they have tried to sell their house and move the rest of the family to the other city to rejoin the husband/father, who was already working at the mission. But the house did not sell. They could not finalize their move. Temporary living arrangements in the other city ran out, and now they have to move back to their original house. The husband/father is still working in the other city; he will commute back to the house on the weekends. This family will put their three children in public school. Either they don’t think homeschooling is best for them, or they simply cannot do it.

Now, I know this family, and I am sure they want what is best for their children. But others — perhaps standing at a distance — would assume that they don’t. They must be like those Other Families who don’t care for their children’s education like we do. It’s not just a narrow mindset, it’s an un-Christlike one. And it can seep into even Christians’ minds so silently.

Avoiding the homeschooled cliques

So, this is my question for homeschooled youth here, who are old enough to consider such things. And I’m basing this question not on assumptions of beliefs of anyone here, but on my own subconscious assumptions from years before:

Even if you don’t say out loud that homeschooling is the “only” option, would you quietly or overtly think that it is the “best” option? Would you look down your nose at someone who decides otherwise for their children, or simply can’t homeschool?

Think carefully about that. It’s a cliquish and sometimes even self-righteous kind of attitude that can get into any kind of Christian. It’s certainly not limited to homeschoolers. However, I often wonder whether homeschoolers aren’t quick enough to contradict it directly in themselves, or if they are even aware it exists.

His Utter Subliminity Screwtape, from C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters, encouraged Wormwood to tempt his patient into considering himself part of a “secret society” among other Christians. Screwtape also heavily favored the “Christianity And” approach, in which Christianity becomes a means to something else, even something good such as the family or moral values, rather than being a means to God Himself.

Proud of humility?

In many cases, I would lovingly submit, the sin most homeschooled kids (and parents) are guilty of is pride.

Trying to avoid pride is like trying to avoid yawning: if you think too much about trying not to yawn, you’ll end up yawning. (Just try it. Look! Some of you are doing it now; ha, ha!) And if you try so hard to be humble, you’ll end up being proud of your humility — which defeats the whole point. Many homeschoolers — well, many Christians — try so hard to be humble that they end up defeating the whole point. Instead, we ought to focus on God and His Gospel of redemption from our horrible sin, delighting in His truth and grace. Education choices, family togetherness, moral values, conservative principles, etc., should be means to that goal — not using Him as a means to other goals.

(Here is where I’ll e-cycle the stuff I wrote before, with some editing.)

Where I think some homeschoolers particularly fail is subconsciously assuming that if their kids aren’t in public school, then they’re pretty much immune to sin. Public school quietly becomes the object of evil — and there are no “objects of evil” — instead of indwelling sin in a human heart. At least the public-school folks know there are terrible schools out there. Many homeschoolers I have known seem to assume they’re Practically Perfect (except for those oh-so-stressful days, etc.).

I know some Christians homeschool because they don’t believe in evolution and also to generally keep their children from being exposed to “worldliness” but I think that’s a little bit cruel.

I don’t think “cruelty” is the main problem with this sheltering. Perhaps it’s a bit naïve, but not cruel. Such parents — the majority I have seen — truly want the best for their children. However, Having the Best for the Children can become an idol as much as anything can. And if one believes the greatest sin is Worldliness and begins assuming that if you avoid the world then you avoid most sin, that fails to glorify God and allow children to grow naturally in discernment.

Lewis pointed out brilliantly in The Great Divorce that sins such as lust and violence may be worse than valuing good things like mother-love or patriotism too highly. However, Lewis noted, the worse sins are less likely to be turned into religions.

Homeschooling for many people has become a religion — a “Christianity And” something-else (to quote His Utter Subliminity Screwtape) hybrid.

If these kids attend secular college, they’ll be completely unprepared for the onslaught of science and philosophy that flies in the face of everything they’ve learned. They won’t have the experience to deal with the shock and won’t have deal with any of the issues before.

Aravanna, I am familiar with the scenarios you describe. However, though you may not have seen this yourself, I have known of homeschooled kids who did just fine in secular college and rather relished combating the Godless science and philosophy that was thrown at them.

The main problem with these types of homeschooled graduates is that they can be really snarky while they’re doing this. I put myself in this category, back then (I hope not so much now). Rather than grieving as a representative of God’s Kingdom for a lost world, and being properly angry about its rebellion against Him, I took the Worldview War much too personally. Self-righteousness (another symptom of many homeschoolers) had crept into my life. In many subtle ways I acted as though I had worked to attain the truth I knew. But what did I have that I did not receive as means of Grace from others — especially God?

I can’t blame this on my parents, or homeschooling culture, or Bill Gothard, though the latter two certainly did not help correct the pride in my heart. I can only blame myself. And this is not to say that we should keep quiet with the truth and not be active. We should! All homeschooling graduates should. But they should do this with humble orthodoxy. Without God’s intervention, they would be just as bad as all the pagans.

Another danger: un-Biblical ‘patriarchy’ views

Of course, I’m assuming here that these homeschooled graduates actually get to college in the first place.

Some homeschooling leaders assume that if a woman does anything remotely close to working outside the home, or seeking higher education, then she is becoming a feminist and is therefore blaspheming God. Maybe you’ve heard this view, or more likely the implications, coming from some homeschoolers. This is patriocentricity, the father-is-pretty-much-head-of-all system of beliefs, and its leaders are trying to make its beliefs standard issue for anyone who decides to homeschool or who embraces Biblical husband/wife roles. It’s un-Biblical, subtle, and often annoying.

Recently I wrote this to someone, about a patriocentrist lady-leader. (For a supposedly male-led movement, these circles have a lot of ladies pushing these ideas and paradoxically having nice control over their acts of wifely submission; I wonnn-derrrr how that could be!) I can reproduce (ha ha!) some of it here, with its original recipient anonymous.

I wonder if any of our friends may be aware of [Jeannie] Chancey’s statements that any Christian woman who works outside the home is blaspheming God? Or that it would be better if Christian women did not vote, and that such a concept is part of a flawed system? Or that any Christian parent who somehow does feel their public school is okay is always sinning?

(I can source these assertions if you like, but I don’t want to seem I’m only building some legal case! Still I’ve seen where this has been said.)

[. . . I]n the very least these are things about which Christ’s people may legitimately have differences — Romans-14 issues of conviction not specifically in Scripture.

This would be a good time for me to say again [. . .] that I am staunchly complementarian! 😀 Scripture outlines different roles, though not different levels of importance, for husbands and wives. To some extent these roles are conferred upon the children — though again I would disavow the wrong “daughters as helpmeets until fathers find them husbands” teachings of some, including Chancey. So this isn’t about this kind of “patriarchy” vs. feminism, but this kind of “patriarchy” vs. feminism vs. more-Biblically balanced complementarianism in the center.

So, in seeing a quote from Chancey without at least a disclaimer about her questionable-at-best views of what “real” male/female roles always mean, I am worried that some Christians wondering about these issues will be skeptical about all true Biblical complementarianism because of these views. Unfortunately, it is wrong teachings like those of the “Ladies Against Feminism” [a website run by women elevating the men in their lives, including their little boys (I do not joke), and their own submission to them] folks that are framing the discussion in a wrong way.

Part of the problem may be deeper than just beliefs about male/female roles, I’ve come to suspect. The main issue may arise when a leader, ministry or whatever, starts basing teaching on an “anti”-something, rather than on positive emphasis on Biblical balance, Law and Grace, God’s truth and love, and other healthy doctrine “tensions.” Even Chancey’s site name shows a core bias: it’s “Ladies Against Feminism.”

I wonder if they would even acknowledge that one could theoretically overcorrect against feminism into a form of Christian Chauvinism? Then a future generation of women would rebel against that, the way the women now are rebelling against feminism, and back and forth, back and forth, and at either extreme, ignoring the Gospel of Grace in the center.

So far I haven’t seen much other from Chancey and Co. than an emphasis on that one issue of male/female roles, along with homemaking, fathers-and-daughters, etc. And an emphasis on missions has been substituted for an emphasis on expanding families as much as they possibly can. I wonder how they would look at other Christians, outside the “circle,” who believe they have different callings, such as a man or woman legitimately called to overseas missions who believes he/she has the gift of celibacy (not as common as some believe, I think, but it’s still in Scripture, and I once hoped I did not have this “gift”!). How would the “militant fecundity” [you must have lots of children] folks look at single Christians who don’t/can’t marry? What if my wife and me were unable to have children, or could only have one or two, or decided to have only one or two?

[. . .] Personally, my wife and I look forward to imitating Christ and His church (a la Ephesians 5) even more in our marriage (we will be married seven months on Dec. 30) and teaching His law and His grace to our future children.

Yet we also come from homeschooling backgrounds, and have seen firsthand the damage that overdone “against feminism” kinds of views can do in families. I have known of families who started out with the best of intentions to keep their children safe, avoid feminism and worldly sins. But gradually they became very hostile or fearful about Christians with different standards (and especially to non-Christians, which compromised the family’s gifts and ability to impact the world for Christ’s sake). Many of their children later rebelled, throwing the “baby” of actual Biblical truth out with the “bathwater” of the other views. We’ve seen this happen on many occasions and are burdened to try learning why it does happen.

[. . . I]t’s a vital topic for sure, and I believe this is one of those areas God may want me to bring up with some people. As a homeschooled graduate and future homeschooler, especially, I yearn not just to correct for excesses and Do Things Better, but love God’s grace.

(Begin new material, to close out this already-lengthy post)

Recall that here I am focusing only on the drawbacks of homeschooling, not the positives of it. I could try to provide more balance the other way, but this post is already long enough. For more, I wrote a column recently called An open letter to newbie homeschoolers, and it is mostly directed to potential parents (like myself). For the kids, though, the questions and answers will be different.

Please, if anyone has any questions, fire away.

Avoiding the homeschooled cliques

So, this is my question for homeschooled youth here, who are old enough to consider such things. And I’m basing this question not on assumptions of beliefs of anyone here, but on my own subconscious assumptions from years before:

Even if you don’t say out loud that homeschooling is the “only” option, would you quietly or overtly think that it is the “best” option? Would you look down your nose at someone who decides otherwise for their children, or simply can’t homeschool?

Think carefully about that. It’s a cliquish and sometimes even self-righteous kind of attitude that can get into any kind of Christian. It’s certainly not limited to homeschoolers. However, I often wonder whether homeschoolers aren’t quick enough to contradict it directly in themselves, or if they are even aware it exists.

His Utter Subliminity Screwtape, from C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters, encouraged Wormwood to tempt his patient into considering himself part of a “secret society” among other Christians. Screwtape also heavily favored the “Christianity And” approach, in which Christian becomes a means to something else, even something good such as the family or moral values, rather than being a means to God Himself.

Ah, I love the Screwtape Letters!

Anyways, I was a very clique-ish kid until my teen years. Think Eustace Scrubb. Yeah, it was that bad. I cringe to think of it.
One thing though: I still think homeschooling, in and of itself, intrinsically, is the best mode of education. Ideally it would work out for everyone but in the real world it doesn't, and other schools provide good experiences for many kids.
I have dozens of friends and they are good mix of homeschooled and other-schooled. I like all of them.

The main thing is, while education goes a long way in forming someone's character, it is not the main deciding factor in their life. They are.
That's why you can't stick a person in a certain category based on how they're being educated.
I learned that only after I came out of my shell a bit and realized that public schoolers were just like me. Gasp!