This thread's been a very interesting read and inspired me to organize (at least a bit) my thoughts on this topic.

First, I agree with those who've mentioned that the earth is a beautiful, wonderful piece of creation that deserves care and the wise stewardship God has entrusted to us. I'm all for preserving wild places like state and national parks; visiting them and enjoying the splendor that has been preserved for all is one of my favorite things to do.

And recycling things, and using less, also makes sense, in the big scheme of things, as far as reducing use of new resources, putting a little less in landfills, and reducing pollution.

I think most of us would agree that food plucked fresh from the garden or the farm just tastes better (especially those garden-ripe tomatoes. Yum!). Yet there are considerations, as far as food is concerned, that really haven't been brought up so far.

Much of the world, and especially the West, is urbanized. Food - especially produce - that is totally natural and organic, without preservatives of any kind, has a limited shelf life, but often has to be transported quite a distance to the urban centers where so many of us live. This is one reason organic foods cost more. Preservatives - even simple ones such as salt - add to the life expectancy of food and allow it to be shipped greater distances before it spoils. (And the FDA does test food preservatives to determine their suitability for human consumption).

Also, the prohibition against use of herbicides or pesticides means more is lost to plant disease and predators. Hence, there's less food available that meets the organic label, and the price goes up (less supply).

To be sure, it could be argued some have gone overboard preservative-wise, such as the picking of still-green tomatoes which are then sprayed with a gas to slow their ripening until they hit the store shelves. And reading the ingredients panel of some convenience foods almost requires a chemistry degree.

But 'organic' doesn't always automatically mean better. Vitamins, for example, are chemical compounds your body needs to function and thrive. Organic in origin or the ordinary ones off the store shelf, they're the same chemicals as far as your body is concerned.

Indeed, even the expression 'chemicals' has a bad connotation, as people often think of them as the 'bad stuff' added to the food or the environment. But to a scientist, a chemical is just something that can be found in nature as well as engineered. And a big name doesn't mean it's bad either; phylloquinone (for example) sounds nasty but it's just the technical name for vitamin K1, something natually found in leafy green vegetables that your body needs.

*steps off soapbox until next time*

Much of the world, and especially the West, is urbanized. Food - especially produce - that is totally natural and organic, without preservatives of any kind, has a limited shelf life, but often has to be transported quite a distance to the urban centers where so many of us live. This is one reason organic foods cost more.

That's true. So, maybe the best route for Scientists to go is to research new ways of preserving food. Preservatives that are less harmful to humans and the environment. Maybe there are even more natural preservatives? Surely God must have taken it into consideration and created something we can use for that purpose...

~Riella

People did canning and in some areas still do to make things last during the winter. Maybe people should consider trying that with the produce when they grow their own?

What I really wish is that I could grow my own produce. Sadly, that isn't really possible where I live.

And what do people do when the soil around their house already has toxins in it? The things they grow in their garden might not be much better than what they find in a store. Perhaps even worse.

~Riella

I totally agree that "Go Green" is overused and way too commercial. I'm getting tired of seeing it everywhere. I have a good supply of those reusable bags because frankly they are a lot sturdier than the plastic or paper ones you get in the store and because my mom bought them for me. I also don't need a lot of plastic bags cluttering up my apartment since I have a hard time remembering to take them with when I go to a place that recycles them.

I try to do my part with recycling, but trying to figure out what can and can't be recycled is mind boggling. I wonder what happens we people put non recyclable things in the bins. Personally, I wish they would just make things that decompose and put them in the right conditions to decompose. (Apparently most landfills are not the right conditions). I feel bad when I can't recycle plastic because I know it doesn't decompose and that it use oil or gas or something related to those two to make. I try to use reusable containers instead of ziplock bags. Partially because it is less wasteful and partially because I want to make my bags last as long as possible so I don't have to spend the money to buy more. However, if I know that I'm going to want to wash dishes after work, I reach for the bags.

I'm not going to spend the extra money to buy "green" products. I do have Clorox green works cleaner. I like that it is made out of plant material. I clean my floors with vinegar and baking soda because it is cheap, and I don't worry about my cat walking on it.

And then the "solutions" given to us by the pro-green people tend to be ironically (and sometimes humorously) non-green, like mercury in CFL lightbulbs, or extremely expensive, like the Prius or Volt (which dies during snowstorms and blizzards when you need it most, apparently ).

Are you picking on Pruises? I love my Prius. I got it partially because it doesn't use as much gas / emit as many fumes and partially because it doesn't take as much gas which means it is cheaper to drive. So I've gotten stuck in the snow a couple of times ... I did that in my mom's station wagon too.

I like the idea behind the CFL bulbs, in other words long lasting and saving on energy costs. Until recently I had no idea that they contained mercury and were so dangerous if they broke or how hard to clean up. Mercury = evil was pretty well drilled into my head when I was in school so I'm rather scared of it. If I had know all that I would have gotten regular bulbs for my lamp. I'm not going to use them again once the ones I have burn out. I'm certainly not going to put long lasting bulbs in fixtures in my apartment. I don't know if I'll be living here long enough to make it worth my while.

Organic food: I can't afford it. I don't know if I'd buy it if I could afford it. I haven't died yet from eating whatever the opposite of organic is, and if I do die from it, well, I have to die of something anyway.

Forever Fan, I immediately thought of Green Eggs and Ham too.

I like to reuse and recycle things. My mom was a Girl Scout leader, and we learned that a lot of things can be reused for projects. Why buy supplies when you can reuse things? Basically, I'm cheap and want to get as much use out of things as possible. Sure I want to help take care of the earth, but I'm not going to go overboard about it. I don't mind going to a little inconvenience (like having to drive a little ways to get rid electronics), but I'm not going to go to a lot of extra expense (such as paying to ship things to be recycled). I recycle what I can, I don't litter, I reuse things when I can, I drive a Prius. I think that's enough.

That being said, I do think it is sad when people don't recycle and easily could have. My apartment building provides recycling bins for each apartment. All we have to do is throw recyclable things in it. We don't even have to sort it; plastic, glass, cardboard, etc. all go in the same container. However, I see a lot of things in people's trash that could be recycled. I don't like waste. For example, a customer who came through my line, double bagged everything in her order, even 5-6 plastic 6 -8 bottles. There is no way they would have been heavy enough to break the bag.

I can't remember exactly how it goes but there is someting that goes kind of like this: Person 1: It's all natural Person 2: So's arsenic

It's quite interesting, that no matter what we humans do to "mess up" the earth. Nature seems to always top it. If I'm remembering correctly, a volcano can cause more damage to the air / climate than we allegedly have.

*hopes this post makes sense*

I have a good supply of those reusable bags because frankly they are a lot sturdier than the plastic or paper ones you get in the store and because my mom bought them for me. I also don't need a lot of plastic bags cluttering up my apartment since I have a hard time remembering to take them with when I go to a place that recycles them.

I bought about three of those reusable bags, and then the stores recalled them all. The recall is still on, so no one knows what bags are safe.

I get plastic bags when I buy groceries or things at a store. We re-use them as trash can liners. I guess that's kinda recycling.

~Riella

Unnatural foods would be the things you'd buy that have ingredients that you can't pronounce, chemicals, food dye #5, etc. Things man have added, basically.

Whereas, natural foods would be things that are... well... natural. Unaltered by man.

Sorry, I knew I should have been more specific with my question. I mean like, are you talking about the non-organic produce in the produce section? Or boxed dinners? Or what? I was just curious.

On the go green push... I have cfl's in my room and we have them in various locations around the house. They've got a new line of bulbs out that I would prefer... Leds.

Yay! LED bulbs. Yeah, I think they're about $30 a piece here. But they last nearly forever. I think that's the kind we're gonna buy from now on as our cfls go out.... or break.

She told me the difference between brown and white is that, chickens that have been making white eggs were given a feed that contains a chemical that makes that chicken produce double the amount of eggs.

Considering that white eggs have been around since before chemicals were "invented", I find that a little hard to believe.

I find that story about eggs a little fishy as well, since we have friends who raise organic eggs and some of their chickens have white eggs and some have brown. I was told it had to do with the breed of chicken doing the laying--but I don't have a reputable source to back that up either.

I have relatives who are farmers as well, and their chickens naturally lay white eggs. They were laying white eggs back in prairie days as well, and, I imagine, since the beginning of time.

Yes, the egg color depends on the breed of chicken. The vast majority of chickens lay white eggs. But Lady Lilliandil, your friend is likely right about non-organic white eggs coming from chickens given chemicals to produce even more eggs.
I am very fortunate that my parents-in-law raise chickens so I get all my eggs for free and while they might not be strictly organic eggs (cause I don't know what's in their feed), they're certainly a lot healthier than what you get in the store.

I think most of us would agree that food plucked fresh from the garden or the farm just tastes better (especially those garden-ripe tomatoes. Yum!).

For the most part, I have stopped buying "fresh" tomatoes in stores because they taste like cardboard to me. Or something... not a tomato, that's for sure. And yeah, in the past few years, I feel like most produce in grocery stores has gone downhill due to it all being picked so green.

I'm glad to see a lot of other people mention on here how they are gardening or if they can't garden, they support their local farmer's markets . I'm sure if you've seen my posts in the Gardening thread you'll know that I'm a bit of a gardening nut. But it's an absolutely fantastic way to get really fresh, great-tasting food! And cheap too. Most of the cost is the labor you put into it.

Preservatives that are less harmful to humans and the environment. Maybe there are even more natural preservatives?

On the subject of gardening and preserving, this year, I've REALLY gotten into canning and freezing. The past several years of gardening, I've had great produce turnouts, but a good portion of it goes bad before my family and I can get around to eating it.
So far this year, I've canned 5 pints of beets, and processed/frozen 3 gallon bags of squash and turnips. All of those now will stay good at least throughout the winter (the canned beets should be good for a couple years). Even if you don't grow your own food, you can still buy it from local growers and then can it. My parents would often buy boxes of peaches from local growers and can them so they didn't have to buy peaches year-round.

Canning is a great way to extend the life of your garden produce. I grew up on canned tomatoes, corn, pickles, and so on. My mother has a really easy and delicious microwave recipe that yields crunchy bread-and-butter pickles (you wouldn't expect them to be crunchy, but they are!)

Personally, I wish they would just make things that decompose and put them in the right conditions to decompose. (Apparently most landfills are not the right conditions).

Too true, too true! Landfills are designed so as not to leak (which would contaminate the water table). That's good, but they tend to be very anaerobic (oxygen-free) environments, so the little beasties that make things decompose can't live there. I read an article a while back describing some researchers who dug into a New York landfill and found things years old that looked (relatively speaking) brand new. It's a rather sterile environment, it turns out.

There have been a few attempts to make compostable/biodegradable products. I remember the cornstarch-derived packing peanuts from my days in the warehouse (late 80s/early 90s). They were all right (actually edible! ) but 'melted' right in your hands if they got at all wet. Not a good thing for shipping - if the box leaked there'd be a kind of goo in there. They weren't around long.

And recently Sun Chips tried a compostable bag. Not sure how that worked out, but they don't seem to be advertising it like they used to. And again, if it just ends up in a landfill, it's not going to degrade very quickly.

Just jumping in here, but I worked as a cashier, and those Sun Chips biodegradable backs were AWFUL. So loud and stiff and all together a pain in the rear. I wasn't sorry at all to see them go.

Whereas, natural foods would be things that are... well... natural. Unaltered by man.

Sorry, I knew I should have been more specific with my question. I mean like, are you talking about the non-organic produce in the produce section? Or boxed dinners? Or what? I was just curious.

All of the above, I suppose. Just anything that's not in its natural God-designed form. Especially boxed things. Some boxed things might literally kill me, because they contain stuff I'm very allergic to.

~Riella

Ah, sounds like you're thinking of processed (vs. unprocessed) foods. I sympathize with your food allergies (my younger brother had some very serious food allergies when he was young) but I would submit that boxed foods are not always, automatically inherently unhealthy for everyone (not that you were making that claim).

Gymfan, I was going to add in my post (but got distracted by an impending ISS pass ) that a friend tried that Sun Chips bag and had the same reaction you did.

edit:

And what do people do when the soil around their house already has toxins in it?

Some places have university extension offices or the like that can test your soil; then you can have some idea of what's in it. But even if it's contaminated - or if you live in an apartment or other place where you can't have a garden - there may be other options. Farmers' markets are one, and some places have 'community gardens' where people share or buy into portions of a large garden nearby.

Just jumping in here, but I worked as a cashier, and those Sun Chips biodegradable backs were AWFUL. So loud and stiff and all together a pain in the rear. I wasn't sorry at all to see them go.

Gymfan, I was going to add in my post (but got distracted by an impending ISS pass ) that a friend tried that Sun Chips bag and had the same reaction you did.

The bags may be noisy, but the chips are delicious. And if the packaging tells the truth, they're a more healthy snack than other chips. But I'm not one to automatically believe packaging. (Any sun-chippers out there know the answer? XD )

~Riella

Those noisy bags, by the way, did quickly decompose in the compost pile. But I suspect they weren't a marketing success.

But i'm not one to automatically believe packaging.

The package's Nutrition Facts - as opposed to marketing or advertising slogans - are reliable, and you can use them to compare one snack to another. Just watch for tricks like unrealistically small serving sizes and the like (I'm not referring to Sun Chips here, but foods in general. I recall a news item a while back about 'healthy' cheesecake - but it turns out the serving size was something like 1/16th of the cake, which was just a tiny sliver ).

I recall a news item a while back about 'healthy' cheesecake - but it turns out the serving size was something like 1/16th of the cake, which was just a tiny sliver ).

I've seen some pretty ridiculous serving sizes. I was looking at a package of donuts or something once, and the serving size was something like "1/3 donut". So you have to actually rip your donut into three different parts in order to have one serving.

~Riella

About the chicken eggs... I was convinced the US bleaches it's eggs because of how many are white. Here you do get the odd white one, but most of them are varying shades of brown. I guess we must use different breeds of chicken?